Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Re: [AdvaitaToZen] Re: A dream With regard to your Zen …. [ If someone is suffering from the idea that everything is real, he cantake the medicine of "everything is a dream" to help put down thatidea. But "dream" is also an idea. Before any idea... the sky is blue, the grass is green, sugar is sweet. Just-now experience isn't dependent on ANY idea: what are you doing right now? Stuart ] May I ask as to how real, REAL needs to get before it is considered to be real enough to be considered REAL ? True enough, life is not dependent on an idea, but neither is it a dream amigo. We get born into this world, this `reality'; we learn things as we go on; we, in most cases, do the best we can, for the best as we see it, in regard to what we encounter and the situations which we find presented to our conscious existence. Were not the children you raised real enough, were not their progeny? Were not the joys, the pains, the laughter and tears, real enough, and lived, and done, real enough to be called REAL for that time? Was not the love you felt for this or that thing, ideal, aspiration, and for this or that person and persons real enough, profound enough, illuminating enough for the day at hand and lessons from life? There is the sleeping dream and there is the waking dream, the pregnancy of an aspiration to be fulfilled. Is this not all real enough? How real does real need to get before they call it real enough? Did you not live it, and love it, and give it your all for your duration here in time and space? We are the stuff that dreams are made on, and those who do not dream thus, and strive thus, are already dead on the inside; for to live without that primordial passion which burns within us always, then one is nought but a walking lifeless robot; not a Man. If your Zen teaches that life is but a dream, and all things encountered are but a dream, then this Zen of yours is nought but a sleeping dream itself which fears to live and give of itself, and thence suffers itself instead into the degradation of somnambulistic nihilism and a rejects the wonder which it is TO BE and to behold; to live, to love, and to do and to die. But I would say to you that if you consider all this to be but an irrelevant meaningless dream, or not to be a dream, it matters not lest in so doing it prevents you from living it to the full whilst this lifetime lasts. It will not last for ever, for all things made, constructed in form, in time and space, all go back to from whence it comes, no matter whether it be matter or mind and consciousness. And you have not found that the Mind of Man is ever tied to the cross of Time and Eternity? Have you not found that as yet? Is it that for which you dream and thence judge this sphere of reality here to be not real enough for the day at hand ? And is not all time, all space, all events that manifest forth therein, but an incarnation of temporal reflections of the essential principle of TO BE and TO BECOME, as in the halls and echelons of Eternity; and do not our own individual actions here echo in Eternity. That things in time and space are not enduring is not indicative that they are a dream or an illusion, or not temporarily real; they are simply a temporal unfolding. But in that temporal manifest unfolding you can do things, and therein you learn much along the way by the repercussion, effects and consequences of the things you did therein. But, if you say that you can actually do anything in the time when time does not move, then I would say remember it again, for you seem to have forgotten what you are in essence, and as to where you are right now, at this moment in time and space; and thus why here. I would say to you in which case that you will never find the true essential nature of your Being if you do not first give it away to the all of which you encounter here in time and space. You will never find your essential self in time and space; and real enough though that aspect of life is too. Life is not for owning, nor for missing, it is free and for the all that it encompasses, from the beginning unto the end. Life is not for you, it is for we. I AM, not for me; but for THOU. And but for Thou I am nought but an Essence of Being in eternal repose. Know Thy Self. Do not fear it or sell it short. For a great wonder, dear Asklepios, is Man. Give yourself away and you will then find it; as it was in the begging and again in the end, and ever there throughout the whole unfolding. Life and existence is not a dream, and it is not symbolic of anything; for it is what it is and it does what it does, and I AM Progeny and do likewise. Prove me wrong. Life does not. Maybe there is more than you have yet found. But don't go away, for it will come to you ;- ) But if you do go away, then whither goest thou? Quo Vadis friend? You cannot go anywhere which is not supplied by existence itself, either in Time or Eternity. It is all there from the beginning, through the middle and then back to the beginning again; and as it is also found to be. Nothing is deluding us – maybe except themselves for a while; for they listen to Man, not LIFE :- ) Do not listen to me; but rather find that of which I speak; find it for yourself and in so doing you find your essential self, and when you have found your essential self you will simultaneously find that which is NOT your self; and then you will live for IT – not you. Ipso Facto amigo. Life and existence is not a secret – it just awaits you to find it :- ) Dick Richardson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Dick Richardson " <somerset_2 wrote: > > > Re: [AdvaitaToZen] Re: A dream > > > > With regard to your Zen …. > > > > [ If someone is suffering from the idea that everything is real, he can > take the medicine of " everything is a dream " to help put down that > idea. But " dream " is also an idea. Before any idea... the sky is blue, > the grass is green, sugar is sweet. Just-now experience isn't dependent > on ANY idea: what are you doing right now? Stuart ] The sky is not blue to a blind child. The grass is not blue to a dog. Sugar is not sweet to a dead man. And for the separated sense of self there is no experience outside of ideas. " You " are " doing " nothing " right now " . " You " are being done moment to moment. > > > > May I ask as to how real, REAL needs to get before it is considered to > be real enough to be considered REAL ? True enough, life is not > dependent on an idea, but neither is it a dream amigo. > > Living a dream is as close as words can come to the experiential reality of the spurious self. It can never see that simply because it IS the dream. > > We get born into this world, this `reality'; we learn things as > we go on; we, in most cases, do the best we can, for the best as we see > it, in regard to what we encounter and the situations which we find > presented to our conscious existence. Were not the children you raised > real enough, were not their progeny? Were not the joys, the pains, the > laughter and tears, real enough, and lived, and done, real enough to be > called REAL for that time? Only as real as the people in your dream last night. " You " (the sense of I am) are a conceptual-mnemonic entity evolved to help the physical organism survive and reproduce. " You " will evaporate when the organism dies. Was not the love you felt for this or that > thing, ideal, aspiration, and for this or that person and persons real > enough, profound enough, illuminating enough for the day at hand and > lessons from life? There is the sleeping dream and there is the waking > dream, the pregnancy of an aspiration to be fulfilled. Is this not all > real enough? How real does real need to get before they call it real > enough? Did you not live it, and love it, and give it your all for your > duration here in time and space? It is relatively real......but so are your night time dreams. > > > > We are the stuff that dreams are made on, and those who do not dream > thus, and strive thus, are already dead on the inside; for to live > without that primordial passion which burns within us always, then one > is nought but a walking lifeless robot; not a Man. If your Zen teaches > that life is but a dream, and all things encountered are but a dream, > then this Zen of yours is nought but a sleeping dream itself which fears > to live and give of itself, and thence suffers itself instead into the > degradation of somnambulistic nihilism and a rejects the wonder which it > is TO BE and to behold; to live, to love, and to do and to die. > " You " are a self-contained thought bubble. You believe that you understand who you are and why you are " here " . That is all necessary for the dream machinery to function. Tell me how " real " you are a hundred years from " now " . > > > But I would say to you that if you consider all this to be but an > irrelevant meaningless dream, or not to be a dream, it matters not lest > in so doing it prevents you from living it to the full whilst this > lifetime lasts. It will not last for ever, for all things made, > constructed in form, in time and space, all go back to from whence it > comes, no matter whether it be matter or mind and consciousness. It appears like that only within the conceptual belief structure of the imaginary self. A " river " does not return the whence it came. A " mountain " does not return to its origin. The " state of Texas " does not die into what it had been. All " things " including the imaginary center called " I " do not return anywhere simply because they never existed in the first place. All " things " exist only as relative-ideas within the conceptual dream of an imaginary self. Nothing is separate. Nothing returns. And you > have not found that the Mind of Man is ever tied to the cross of Time > and Eternity? Have you not found that as yet? Is it that for which you > dream and thence judge this sphere of reality here to be not real enough > for the day at hand ? And is not all time, all space, all events that > manifest forth therein, but an incarnation of temporal reflections of > the essential principle of TO BE and TO BECOME, as in the halls and > echelons of Eternity; and do not our own individual actions here echo in > Eternity. The dreamed character can never grasp the dream. It IS the dream. > > > > That things in time and space are not enduring is not indicative that > they are a dream or an illusion, or not temporarily real; they are > simply a temporal unfolding. Only the real endures. The unreal never existed. But in that temporal manifest unfolding you > can do things, and therein you learn much along the way by the > repercussion, effects and consequences of the things you did therein. You are not the doer. You are but a cog in the Magnus Machina. > But, if you say that you can actually do anything in the time when time > does not move, then I would say remember it again, for you seem to have > forgotten what you are in essence, and as to where you are right now, at > this moment in time and space; and thus why here. There is no moment in space and time...and no one to occupy it. > > > > I would say to you in which case that you will never find the true > essential nature of your Being if you do not first give it away to the > all of which you encounter here in time and space. You will never find > your essential self in time and space; and real enough though that > aspect of life is too. Life is not for owning, nor for missing, it is > free and for the all that it encompasses, from the beginning unto the > end. Life is not for you, it is for we. There is no such thing as the " essential self " . It is only swirling mnemonic debris......empty in the center. I AM, not for me; but for THOU. Baloney. You are for you. You are a survival program. Nothing more....nothing less. That is the nature of self. > And but for Thou I am nought but an Essence of Being in eternal repose. > Know Thy Self. You can't. There isn't one. Do not fear it or sell it short. For a great wonder, dear > Asklepios, is Man. Give yourself away and you will then find it; as it > was in the begging and again in the end, and ever there throughout the > whole unfolding. > > > > Life and existence is not a dream, and it is not symbolic of anything; For the mind of man....it exists only as a symbolic overlay.....a conceptual dream that is not different than its self. > for it is what it is and it does what it does, and I AM Progeny and do > likewise. Prove me wrong. Life does not. You are beyond wrong but can never know that. You disappear in that knowing as a shadow disappears in the light. Maybe there is more than you > have yet found. There is nothing for you to find.......there is an Understanding that will unravel the tapestry that is so tightly woven around your head.....Light will penetrate and dissolve the sense of separation. But first you have to be willing let go of all the silly fear based ideas that drive you through your daze.....You have to be willing to die to the known......and open to the unknown. But don't go away, for it will come to you ;- ) You can't get back what you never had. You can't become anything different than you are. You are trying to improve that which exists only as a cluster of ideas and memories by adding more ideas and memories. The structure always collapses. In a few it falls apart before the physical organism dies. But > if you do go away, then whither goest thou? Quo Vadis friend? You > cannot go anywhere which is not supplied by existence itself, either in > Time or Eternity. " Time " and " eternity " .......You're kidding right? It is all there from the beginning, through the > middle and then back to the beginning again; and as it is also found to > be. Nothing is deluding us – maybe except themselves for a while; > for they listen to Man, not LIFE :- ) Do not listen to me; but rather > find that of which I speak; find it for yourself and in so doing you > find your essential self, and when you have found your essential self > you will simultaneously find that which is NOT your self; and then you > will live for IT – not you. Ipso Facto amigo. Life and existence is > not a secret – it just awaits you to find it :- ) If you still think that there is something to find and someone to find it.....you are condemned to the games. (no smiley face insrted) > > > > Dick Richardson. > You......Dick Richardson......are nothing other than the evolving personal philosophy that is espoused above. It is nothing but an accumulation of self-referential memories. And there is no you in the center of all that commotion. See that........and hang on to your shorts. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 [ Tell me how "real" you are a hundred years from "now". ] Dont be a bloody idiot all your life son, I shall be long dead and gone from here in a hundred years time - thank heavens :- ) Hell, I am seventy now and have had a fantasic life - or dream according to you :- ) Man, or boy, you babble the biggst load of crap I have ever read :- ))) Oh by the way, have you ever heard of cutting and pasting? Cut the stuff already read off the bottom of your emails - you are polluting cybersapce as well as this world. Dick. Nisargadatta , "toombaru2006" <lastrain wrote:> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Dick Richardson " <somerset_2 wrote: > > > > > [ Tell me how " real " you are a hundred years from " now " . ] > > Dont be a bloody idiot all your life son, I shall be long dead and gone > from here in a hundred years time - thank heavens :- ) Hell, I am > seventy now and have had a fantasic life - or dream according to you :- > ) Man, or boy, you babble the biggst load of crap I have ever read :- > ))) I know......The thought that you never existed is pretty hard to swallow. It is not for the feint of heart or for those who are content with sleep walking. You are among the living-dead. Perhaps....for you...it is too late. You just keep feeding the delusional dream as long as you can. Have fun......get drunk...have sex.....tell us how good " your life " is hand how " we " should be living " our " life. Good thing.....the universe is self cleaning. It'll all be over soon. Soon that nice little lady from hospice will be wetting your lips with a cotton swab.....you can tell her how grand your life is. > > Oh by the way, have you ever heard of cutting and pasting? Cut the > stuff already read off the bottom of your emails - you are polluting > cybersapce as well as this world. > > Dick. > Your desire and need to control others is apparent here. I never cut and paste. Live with it. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Dick Richardson " <somerset_2 wrote: > > > Re: [AdvaitaToZen] Re: A dream > > > > With regard to your Zen …. > > > > [ If someone is suffering from the idea that everything is real, he can > take the medicine of " everything is a dream " to help put down that > idea. But " dream " is also an idea. Before any idea... the sky is blue, > the grass is green, sugar is sweet. Just-now experience isn't dependent > on ANY idea: what are you doing right now? Stuart ] > > > > May I ask as to how real, REAL needs to get before it is considered to > be real enough to be considered REAL ? True enough, life is not > dependent on an idea, but neither is it a dream amigo. > > > > We get born into this world, this `reality'; we learn things as > we go on; we, in most cases, do the best we can, for the best as we see > it, in regard to what we encounter and the situations which we find > presented to our conscious existence. Were not the children you raised > real enough, were not their progeny? Were not the joys, the pains, the > laughter and tears, real enough, and lived, and done, real enough to be > called REAL for that time? Was not the love you felt for this or that > thing, ideal, aspiration, and for this or that person and persons real > enough, profound enough, illuminating enough for the day at hand and > lessons from life? There is the sleeping dream and there is the waking > dream, the pregnancy of an aspiration to be fulfilled. Is this not all > real enough? How real does real need to get before they call it real > enough? Did you not live it, and love it, and give it your all for your > duration here in time and space? > > > > We are the stuff that dreams are made on, and those who do not dream > thus, and strive thus, are already dead on the inside; for to live > without that primordial passion which burns within us always, then one > is nought but a walking lifeless robot; not a Man. If your Zen teaches > that life is but a dream, and all things encountered are but a dream, > then this Zen of yours is nought but a sleeping dream itself which fears > to live and give of itself, and thence suffers itself instead into the > degradation of somnambulistic nihilism and a rejects the wonder which it > is TO BE and to behold; to live, to love, and to do and to die. > > > > But I would say to you that if you consider all this to be but an > irrelevant meaningless dream, or not to be a dream, it matters not lest > in so doing it prevents you from living it to the full whilst this > lifetime lasts. It will not last for ever, for all things made, > constructed in form, in time and space, all go back to from whence it > comes, no matter whether it be matter or mind and consciousness. And you > have not found that the Mind of Man is ever tied to the cross of Time > and Eternity? Have you not found that as yet? Is it that for which you > dream and thence judge this sphere of reality here to be not real enough > for the day at hand ? And is not all time, all space, all events that > manifest forth therein, but an incarnation of temporal reflections of > the essential principle of TO BE and TO BECOME, as in the halls and > echelons of Eternity; and do not our own individual actions here echo in > Eternity. > > > > That things in time and space are not enduring is not indicative that > they are a dream or an illusion, or not temporarily real; they are > simply a temporal unfolding. But in that temporal manifest unfolding you > can do things, and therein you learn much along the way by the > repercussion, effects and consequences of the things you did therein. > But, if you say that you can actually do anything in the time when time > does not move, then I would say remember it again, for you seem to have > forgotten what you are in essence, and as to where you are right now, at > this moment in time and space; and thus why here. > > > > I would say to you in which case that you will never find the true > essential nature of your Being if you do not first give it away to the > all of which you encounter here in time and space. You will never find > your essential self in time and space; and real enough though that > aspect of life is too. Life is not for owning, nor for missing, it is > free and for the all that it encompasses, from the beginning unto the > end. Life is not for you, it is for we. I AM, not for me; but for THOU. > And but for Thou I am nought but an Essence of Being in eternal repose. > Know Thy Self. Do not fear it or sell it short. For a great wonder, dear > Asklepios, is Man. Give yourself away and you will then find it; as it > was in the begging and again in the end, and ever there throughout the > whole unfolding. > > > > Life and existence is not a dream, and it is not symbolic of anything; > for it is what it is and it does what it does, and I AM Progeny and do > likewise. Prove me wrong. Life does not. Maybe there is more than you > have yet found. But don't go away, for it will come to you ;- ) But > if you do go away, then whither goest thou? Quo Vadis friend? You > cannot go anywhere which is not supplied by existence itself, either in > Time or Eternity. It is all there from the beginning, through the > middle and then back to the beginning again; and as it is also found to > be. Nothing is deluding us – maybe except themselves for a while; > for they listen to Man, not LIFE :- ) Do not listen to me; but rather > find that of which I speak; find it for yourself and in so doing you > find your essential self, and when you have found your essential self > you will simultaneously find that which is NOT your self; and then you > will live for IT – not you. Ipso Facto amigo. Life and existence is > not a secret – it just awaits you to find it :- ) > > > > Dick Richardson. dream " Dick Richardson " , life is not a dream.....yes, it's all about imaginary " you " .... there is nothing but imaginary " you " .... do you see anything else than this your imaginary " you " ? to whom are you talking in here?....if not to imaginary " you " ?... sooner or later, everybody disappear into/within/by/to/from reality... same for imaginary " you " .... Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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