Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Can one follow thoughts back to their origin ? No one can't. Thoughts are just appearing, seemingly out of nothingness, out of the blue. But that is a delusion. Thoughts are created in the brain way before they do appear. This activity can be observed with magnetic resonance tomographs. When the thinking process is unconsciously going on then only a small part of it gets prepared for communication and made conscious as verbal thought in order to eventually get communicated. And those thoughts which appear are verbal because we are social beings, communicative beings with a complex and rich fund of language. This complexity of language gets reflected in our complex society and vice versa. And now just try to trace a thought back to its origin Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 In a message dated 10/22/2008 2:09:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wwoehr writes: Can one follow thoughts back to their origin ? Yes, not individual thoughts because before they appear in conscious awareness, they're not fully formed thoughts, and also, one cannot use a process of thinking to learn anything about thoughts. Any useful awareness is a matter of intuition or direct perception. You don't allow yourself access to that and so you must rely on circular mentation, and science which is just a story unfolding in Consciousness. Neither of these processes yields anything that can be used to understand what is prior to mind, and so it's naturally dismissed. Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate from the individual but are part of an integrated functioning of Consciousness itself, and life supports itself quite naturally. IOW, we are being lived, and so it's not the individual who steps out of the path of a truck to begin with. There's just the delusion of personhood that believes itself to be running the show, and this is where your question comes from. You figure if "I" am not protecting this mind/body, it will walk out in front of a truck without my help. I'm saying it never needed your help in the first place. You might try checking the 'to' field on your post before you hit 'send', and make sure it says 'Nisargadatta ' instead of 'souldreamone'. It may be a glitch. Dunno, really. In a message dated 10/22/2008 12:03:58 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, donna.thoughtz writes: Interesting. But if we are not real but only the fluff we observe after conception when we eventually sense that we are here but that is all illusion, why jump out of the path of a truck?I have never gone on a message site before so I don't know how to post and just clicked reply to your interesting post.Donna On 10/22/08, Souldreamone <Souldreamone wrote: Hi Donna Maybe we could say the most fundamental function of thought is to form creative movements of experience. Need, desire, fear, curiosity, pleasure, pain are all instigators of thought that start a movement toward or away from something. As such, it may not be sufficient to simply watch thoughts come and go. These instigators call for satisfaction, and some of them do indeed need to be taken seriously. What can be noticed is that much of our thinking is not in response to a necessary movement, such as getting out of the way of a truck, but is the formation of a movement for movement's sake. All ego drama and most personal conflict falls into this category, as well as the dissatisfaction that arises in this moment when there really is nothing wrong with this moment. Also, anything designed to improve, build up, judge or defend the imaginary self. In a message dated 10/22/2008 11:07:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, donna.thoughtz writes: Thoughts are the brain trying to know... trying to pacifyitself...thoughts are made of words and therefore not real... theemotion they create is felt if we take them seriously. Just watchingthem as we can watch clouds float by is safer sport. I guess theorigin of lots of our thoughts is from our childhoods which play overand over like endless tapes in the minds of most humans.Donna (This came to my personal email and so I'm responding that way. Sometimes that happens accidentally. If it was intended for the forum, feel free to post it. )Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 In a message dated 10/22/2008 11:32:05 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wwoehr writes: Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:>> > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate from the > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of Consciousness itself,Wait a moment, Phil,First, why conscious with a capital "C" ? Consciousness is a function created by the brain just for social reasons. ***Nope, sorry, that's BS. You've been conditioned by the religion of science. Don't believe everything you're told. In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists for no other reason. ***It exists for a reason? Then somebody must have caused it to exist with an intention in 'mind'. Who would that be? Some mad scientist without a brain? Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. ****What does that have to do with the discussion? Nothing, of course, it's just that you can't go 24 hours without repeating it like a trained parrot. Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an event gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then then actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the initiator of any activity.Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. Consciousness never is the starter of any activity.All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. ****If you'd stop hacking things to bits for just a second and take a looky see, you'd find that the formation of events, the events themselves, and the experiencing of events are all the same phenomena. There's no 'before', no 400 ms delay. Those are just more thoughts forming in what appears to be your brain. The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making showed that decisions, choicees or so called "will" are already created 1 to 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual "own will now".Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is the master and initiator of any "voluntary" acrivity in daily life. ****If it shows anything at all, it shows that you are not the master of anything, and Consciousness is forming experience without your permission. (Consciousness doesn't happen inside your head. That's another story.) Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 In a message dated 10/23/2008 1:48:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wwoehr writes: With all that spitful reactions, Phil, you just show that somehow you feel that I could be right.But your vanity as a non-dual guru demands to fight. All those seeming obstacles in reality sit in yourself and nowhere else.There are thousands of non-dual gurus more who similar like you got stuck in that non-dual aping and parrotting of Ramana's teachings.They are all spiritual saurians, relicts of past ideas and concepts which nowadays are seen as false and erroneous.Fight on, PhilWerne You get off on this sh*t, doncha werne? Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 In a message dated 10/23/2008 2:01:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wwoehr writes: Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my petty convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to earth and to meet life with much more modest eyes.And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions from people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance.Werner Naw, you get reactions like that because you're hateful and 'contemptful'. It always tickled me that you have a Niz forum, and yet you think he was an ignorant shister. Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate from the > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of Consciousness itself, Wait a moment, Phil, First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a function created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of consciousness is the world we share and communicate. In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists for no other reason. Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an event gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then then actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the initiator of any activity. Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making showed that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already created 1 to 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will now " . Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is the master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. Werner and > life supports itself quite naturally. IOW, we are being lived, and so it's > not the individual who steps out of the path of a truck to begin with. There's > just the delusion of personhood that believes itself to be running the show, > and this is where your question comes from. You figure if " I " am not > protecting this mind/body, it will walk out in front of a truck without my help. I'm > saying it never needed your help in the first place. > > You might try checking the 'to' field on your post before you hit 'send', > and make sure it says 'Nisargadatta ' instead of 'souldreamone'. > It may be a glitch. Dunno, really. > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 12:03:58 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > donna.thoughtz writes: > > Interesting. But if we are not real but only the fluff we observe after > conception when we eventually sense that we are here but that is all illusion, > why jump out of the path of a truck? > I have never gone on a message site before so I don't know how to post and > just clicked reply to your interesting post. > Donna > > On 10/22/08, _Souldreamone_ (Souldreamone) > <_Souldreamone_ (Souldreamone) > wrote: > > > Hi Donna > Maybe we could say the most fundamental function of thought is to form > creative movements of experience. Need, desire, fear, curiosity, pleasure, pain > are all instigators of thought that start a movement toward or away from > something. As such, it may not be sufficient to simply watch thoughts come and go. > These instigators call for satisfaction, and some of them do indeed need to > be taken seriously. > > What can be noticed is that much of our thinking is not in response to a > necessary movement, such as getting out of the way of a truck, but is the > formation of a movement for movement's sake. All ego drama and most personal > conflict falls into this category, as well as the dissatisfaction that arises in > this moment when there really is nothing wrong with this moment. Also, anything > designed to improve, build up, judge or defend the imaginary self. > > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 11:07:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > _donna.thoughtz_ (donna.thoughtz) writes: > > Thoughts are the brain trying to know... trying to pacify > itself...thoughts are made of words and therefore not real... the > emotion they create is felt if we take them seriously. Just watching > them as we can watch clouds float by is safer sport. I guess the > origin of lots of our thoughts is from our childhoods which play over > and over like endless tapes in the minds of most humans. > Donna > > > > > (This came to my personal email and so I'm responding that way. Sometimes > that happens accidentally. If it was intended for the forum, feel free to post > it. ) > > > **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, > no registration required and great graphics †" check it out! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol? redir= > http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 In a message dated 10/23/2008 10:01:22 AM GMT Standard Time, wwoehr writes: > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate > from > > the > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > Consciousness itself,> > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, .... ~~~ A couple of weeks ago i stood outside watching my friend as she got in her car and lifting my hand i waved as she drove away. Later on she telephoned querying what was i doing as she drove off. I said that i was waving at her. She replied that i was doing more than that and went on to explain that the way i was holding my fingers was the symbol for banishing evil demons/spirits. This was the first time that i'd heard of such a gesture so having assured her that i'd no such intention in mind, nor for that matter any knowledge of such a gesture, she apologised for what had crossed her mind. A few days ago i called on her and having spent an hour or two chatting i prepared to leave. We'd been discussing her hopes of taking robes and should that happen the necessity of her having her head shaven. I'm tall and she's short so extending my hand i playfully ruffled the hair on the top of her head whilst i intoned the word 'cut' then laughing we hugged but instead of our usual air kissing our foreheads touched instead. Still laughing I turned away and picking up my coat put it on. Turning around, i was surprised to find her standing in an attitude of prayer with her head bowed over joined hands and suddenly it struck me that she must have thought that i'd given her a blessing or something. "Thank you, thank you" she whispered bowing her head and not knowing what to say i once again ruffled her hair and silently made my departure. Maybe this is a case where spontaneous actions and how they're mis-identified speaks louder than words. catherine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate from > the > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > Consciousness itself, > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a function > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists for > no other reason. > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an event > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then then > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > initiator of any activity. > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making showed > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already created 1 to > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will now " . > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is the > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. > > Werner > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? ....must explains why " I feel so good today " !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 11:32:05 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > wwoehr writes: > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate from > the > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > Consciousness itself, > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a function > created by the brain just for social reasons. > > > ***Nope, sorry, that's BS. You've been conditioned by the religion of > science. Don't believe everything you're told. > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists for > no other reason. > > > ***It exists for a reason? Then somebody must have caused it to exist with > an intention in 'mind'. Who would that be? Some mad scientist without a brain? > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. > > > > ****What does that have to do with the discussion? Nothing, of course, it's > just that you can't go 24 hours without repeating it like a trained parrot. > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an event > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then then > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > initiator of any activity. > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > ****If you'd stop hacking things to bits for just a second and take a looky > see, you'd find that the formation of events, the events themselves, and the > experiencing of events are all the same phenomena. There's no 'before', no > 400 ms delay. Those are just more thoughts forming in what appears to be your > brain. > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making showed > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already created 1 to > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will now " . > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is the > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. > > > ****If it shows anything at all, it shows that you are not the master of > anything, and Consciousness is forming experience without your permission. > (Consciousness doesn't happen inside your head. That's another story.) > With all that spitful reactions, Phil, you just show that somehow you feel that I could be right. But your vanity as a non-dual guru demands to fight. All those seeming obstacles in reality sit in yourself and nowhere else. There are thousands of non-dual gurus more who similar like you got stuck in that non-dual aping and parrotting of Ramana's teachings. They are all spiritual saurians, relicts of past ideas and concepts which nowadays are seen as false and erroneous. Fight on, Phil Werne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate > from > > the > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > Consciousness itself, > > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a > function > > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists > for > > no other reason. > > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an > event > > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then then > > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > > initiator of any activity. > > > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. > > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making showed > > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already created 1 > to > > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will now " . > > > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is > the > > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. > > > > Werner > > > > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my petty convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to earth and to meet life with much more modest eyes. And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions from people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance. Werner > > ...must explains why " I feel so good today " !! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't originate > > from > > > the > > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > > Consciousness itself, > > > > > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > > > > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a > > function > > > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > > > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it exists > > for > > > no other reason. > > > > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no consciousness. > > > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an > > event > > > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then > then > > > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > > > initiator of any activity. > > > > > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. > > > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > > > > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making > showed > > > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already created > 1 > > to > > > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will > now " . > > > > > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never is > > the > > > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my petty > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to earth and > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions from > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance. Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me guess, 28000 ms ago? > > Werner > > > > > > ...must explains why " I feel so good today " !! > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't > originate > > > from > > > > the > > > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > > > Consciousness itself, > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > > > > > > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a > > > function > > > > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > > > > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > > > > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it > exists > > > for > > > > no other reason. > > > > > > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no > consciousness. > > > > > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til an > > > event > > > > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later then > > then > > > > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > > > > initiator of any activity. > > > > > > > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already happened. > > > > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > > > > > > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > > > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making > > showed > > > > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already > created > > 1 > > > to > > > > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own will > > now " . > > > > > > > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness never > is > > > the > > > > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily life. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my petty > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to earth > and > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions from > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance. > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me guess, > 28000 ms ago? > > > Wrong question, Johan You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, after some time lag you get conscious of something which happened before. You still believe that you get upset because something got conscious. You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting upset. But consciousness never is initiating anything. Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... Werner > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > ...must explains why " I feel so good today " !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't > > originate > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > > > > Consciousness itself, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > > > > > > > > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is a > > > > function > > > > > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > > > > > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > > > > > > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it > > exists > > > > for > > > > > no other reason. > > > > > > > > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til > an > > > > event > > > > > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later > then > > > then > > > > > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or the > > > > > initiator of any activity. > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already > happened. > > > > > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > > > > > > > > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > > > > > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making > > > showed > > > > > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already > > created > > > 1 > > > > to > > > > > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own > will > > > now " . > > > > > > > > > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness > never > > is > > > > the > > > > > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily > life. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my petty > > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to earth > > and > > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions > from > > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance. > > > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me guess, > > 28000 ms ago? > > > > > > > > > Wrong question, Johan > > You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, after > some time lag you get conscious of something which happened before. > > You still believe that you get upset because something got conscious. > > You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting upset. > But consciousness never is initiating anything. > > Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... > > Werner My my, not only upset, but bitter as well... Worst thing that can happen to 'man' is when he's losing his sense of humour. Please take some time out on your magic carpet... > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...must explains why " I feel so good today " !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , souldreamone@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind functions spontaneously. The thoughts don't > > > originate > > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > individual but are part of an integrated functioning of > > > > > > Consciousness itself, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait a moment, Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > First, why conscious with a capital " C " ? Consciousness is > a > > > > > function > > > > > > created by the brain just for social reasons. The world of > > > > > > consciousness is the world we share and communicate. > > > > > > > > > > > > In short, consciousness is needed for communication and it > > > exists > > > > > for > > > > > > no other reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, consciousness is its content - no conten no > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness works pretty slow. It needs about 400msec til > > an > > > > > event > > > > > > gets conscious. Which means consciousness always is later > > then > > > > then > > > > > > actuality. Therefore consciousness never is the master or > the > > > > > > initiator of any activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness is just kinda reporter of what already > > happened. > > > > > > Consciousness never is the starter of any activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > All activities already do start BEFORE they get conscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > The latest neuroscientific researches about decision making > > > > showed > > > > > > that decisions, choicees or so called " will " are already > > > created > > > > 1 > > > > > to > > > > > > 10 seconds before they got conscious as one's actual " own > > will > > > > now " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Alone this neurological result showes that consciousness > > never > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > master and initiator of any " voluntary " acrivity in daily > > life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That leaves 'us' pretty petty creatures, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my > petty > > > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to > earth > > > and > > > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful reactions > > from > > > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual arrogance. > > > > > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me guess, > > > 28000 ms ago? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong question, Johan > > > > You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, after > > some time lag you get conscious of something which happened before. > > > > You still believe that you get upset because something got > conscious. > > > > You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting upset. > > But consciousness never is initiating anything. > > > > Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... > > > > Werner > > My my, not only upset, but bitter as well... > > Worst thing that can happen to 'man' is when he's losing his sense of > humour. > > Please take some time out on your magic carpet..., Johan, why getting personal ? Just see, that what you seem to raelize in me like being upset, bitter or humourless are just your own projections born in your own head. They have nothing to do with me. I myself am just fine and am enjoying that exchange with you. That's what really is happening here when sitting at the pc and typing my stuff. Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...must explains why " I feel so good today " !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my > > petty > > > > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to > > earth > > > > and > > > > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > > > > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful > reactions > > > from > > > > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual > arrogance. > > > > > > > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me > guess, > > > > 28000 ms ago? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong question, Johan > > > > > > You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, > after > > > some time lag you get conscious of something which happened > before. > > > > > > You still believe that you get upset because something got > > conscious. > > > > > > You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting > upset. > > > But consciousness never is initiating anything. > > > > > > Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... > > > > > > Werner > > > > My my, not only upset, but bitter as well... > > > > Worst thing that can happen to 'man' is when he's losing his sense > of > > humour. > > > > Please take some time out on your magic carpet..., > > > > Johan, why getting personal ? > > Just see, that what you seem to raelize in me like being upset, > bitter or humourless are just your own projections born in your own > head. They have nothing to do with me. > > I myself am just fine and am enjoying that exchange with you. That's > what really is happening here when sitting at the pc and typing my > stuff. > > Werner Foremost Werner, you are not my enemy and I have no intention distressing you in whatever way. I do however sense agitation coming from you towards certain members and or posts of this group, and...I don't have to be a psychologist to 'recognize' that from your replies. ....and oh, please re-read some of your own posts that you exhange on this forum regarding " getting personal " . I knew this was going to be a fun day...as are all days are meant to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all my > > > petty > > > > > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back to > > > earth > > > > > and > > > > > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful > > reactions > > > > from > > > > > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual > > arrogance. > > > > > > > > > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me > > guess, > > > > > 28000 ms ago? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong question, Johan > > > > > > > > You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, > > after > > > > some time lag you get conscious of something which happened > > before. > > > > > > > > You still believe that you get upset because something got > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting > > upset. > > > > But consciousness never is initiating anything. > > > > > > > > Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > My my, not only upset, but bitter as well... > > > > > > Worst thing that can happen to 'man' is when he's losing his > sense > > of > > > humour. > > > > > > Please take some time out on your magic carpet..., > > > > > > > > Johan, why getting personal ? > > > > Just see, that what you seem to raelize in me like being upset, > > bitter or humourless are just your own projections born in your own > > head. They have nothing to do with me. > > > > I myself am just fine and am enjoying that exchange with you. > That's > > what really is happening here when sitting at the pc and typing my > > stuff. > > > > Werner > > Foremost Werner, you are not my enemy and I have no intention > distressing you in whatever way. Nice to know that you are not my enemy, Johan. But how come you have to tell me that ? Could it be that you nevertheless feel some enmity towards me ? And then, you " distressing " me ? Why should you distress me ? I am enjoying that exchange with you. It is fun. > I do however sense agitation coming from you towards certain members > and or posts of this group, and...I don't have to be a psychologist > to 'recognize' that from your replies. Haha, Johan, surely I am agitating towards certain members .. whats wrong with that ? > > ...and oh, please re-read some of your own posts that you exhange on > this forum regarding " getting personal " . > Ok, if I got personal towards someone else then it is his job to react or not to react. But it is not your Job, Johan, it is not your beer. Or are you other peoples advocat ? But if you are personal towards me then it is my beer, right ? I hope that got clear. > I knew this was going to be a fun day...as are all days are meant to > be... Sometime ago I saw a cartoon showing a guy kneeling on a mountain top below the cross there. Some meters away was parking his 4wheeler fun car. And his prayer was: " Jesus, I wanna have fun " . Werner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not me, Johan, because in the meantime I did revise all > my > > > > petty > > > > > > > convictions which unavoidable forced me to get down back > to > > > > earth > > > > > > and > > > > > > > to meet life with much more modest eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And thats why I sometime get hateful and contemptful > > > reactions > > > > > from > > > > > > > people still sitting on their high horse of spiritual > > > arrogance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why get so upset by events that may have happened, let me > > > guess, > > > > > > 28000 ms ago? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong question, Johan > > > > > > > > > > You don't get upset of something which happened before. But, > > > after > > > > > some time lag you get conscious of something which happened > > > before. > > > > > > > > > > You still believe that you get upset because something got > > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > > > You still believe that consciousness initiated that getting > > > upset. > > > > > But consciousness never is initiating anything. > > > > > > > > > > Have you got it ? I am afraid you don't ... > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > My my, not only upset, but bitter as well... > > > > > > > > Worst thing that can happen to 'man' is when he's losing his > > sense > > > of > > > > humour. > > > > > > > > Please take some time out on your magic carpet..., > > > > > > > > > > > > Johan, why getting personal ? > > > > > > Just see, that what you seem to raelize in me like being upset, > > > bitter or humourless are just your own projections born in your > own > > > head. They have nothing to do with me. > > > > > > I myself am just fine and am enjoying that exchange with you. > > That's > > > what really is happening here when sitting at the pc and typing > my > > > stuff. > > > > > > Werner > > > > Foremost Werner, you are not my enemy and I have no intention > > distressing you in whatever way. > > > Nice to know that you are not my enemy, Johan. But how come you have > to tell me that ? Could it be that you nevertheless feel some enmity > towards me ? > > And then, you " distressing " me ? Why should you distress me ? I am > enjoying that exchange with you. It is fun. > > > > I do however sense agitation coming from you towards certain > members > > and or posts of this group, and...I don't have to be a psychologist > > to 'recognize' that from your replies. > > > Haha, Johan, surely I am agitating towards certain members .. whats > wrong with that ? > > > > > > ...and oh, please re-read some of your own posts that you exhange > on > > this forum regarding " getting personal " . > > > > > Ok, if I got personal towards someone else then it is his job to > react or not to react. But it is not your Job, Johan, it is not your > beer. Or are you other peoples advocat ? > > But if you are personal towards me then it is my beer, right ? > > I hope that got clear. > > > > I knew this was going to be a fun day...as are all days are meant > to > > be... > > > Sometime ago I saw a cartoon showing a guy kneeling on a mountain top > below the cross there. Some meters away was parking his 4wheeler fun > car. > > And his prayer was: " Jesus, I wanna have fun " . > > > > Werner > > > > May I remind you that this is NOT a site about doing 'jobs', but a forum in-where anyone is invited to participate, in sometimes heated discussions, in topics posted here, regardless their content!! I DON'T feel any enmity towards you, (be welcome tho, continue to feel as such) its just that your posts remind me of my own silly 'kicking-against-anything-that-is-not-in-my-line-of-thinking', sad really. I'm going to continue my fun day...and hope you have one too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Maybe you two guys Werner and Johan have been cooped up too long on this thread like an old couple on a small boat for weeks: " I've come to hate the way you make noise with your mouth when you eat, says she " " how many times have i asked you to stop looking at me like 'this', says he " Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 To whom are you speaking? I suggest Oneness is not something about which one can take a stand. That position is meaningless and self contradictory, isn't it? In Oneness, the differences remain, which can be frustrating to our stand that they do not. In a message dated 10/24/2008 10:19:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, htiek0 writes: When there is the stand that ALL IS ONE....then there is noBIG CONSCIOUSNESS.....relating to little consciousnessDIFFERENCES to argue'I' of any sort to create No 'I' to experienceThis is the NON-DUALITY of No-two....no 'I' to anything kPlay online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 When there is the stand that ALL IS ONE....then there is no BIG CONSCIOUSNESS.....relating to little consciousness DIFFERENCES to argue 'I' of any sort to create No 'I' to experience This is the NON-DUALITY of No-two.... no 'I' to anything k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Nisargadatta , Keith Karnaky <htiek0 wrote: > > When there is the stand that ALL IS ONE....then there is no > > BIG CONSCIOUSNESS.....relating to little consciousness > > DIFFERENCES to argue > > 'I' of any sort to create > > No 'I' to experience > > This is the NON-DUALITY of No-two.... > > no 'I' to anything > > k > Sure, sure, But that's just repeating nondual concepts of what you have read. Practically, in daily life you will use the word " I " when speaking of yourself with others or when speaking with yourself. All that non-dual stuff won't change anything. Now you proudly could explain that there are no others, that there is no yourself, etc, etc. But that won't change anything. You are what you are: An ego-ridden identified conditioned human being like evetyone else. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 The only solution I can see is divorce............Oh, and murder.....that's a possibility too. In a message dated 26/10/2008 4:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ericparoissien writes: Maybe you two guys Werner and Johan have been cooped up too long onthis thread like an old couple on a small boat for weeks:"I've come to hate the way you make noise with your mouth when youeat, says she""how many times have i asked you to stop looking at me like 'this',says he"Nisargadatta , "johanhb" <yohansky wrote:>> Nisargadatta , "Werner Woehr" <wwoehr@> > wrote: Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 In a message dated 26/10/2008 6:26:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: souldreamone wrote:> The only solution I can see is divorce............Oh, and > murder.....that's a possibility too.> > > In a message dated 26/10/2008 4:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > ericparoissien writes:>> Maybe you two guys Werner and Johan have been cooped up too long on> this thread like an old couple on a small boat for weeks:> "I've come to hate the way you make noise with your mouth when you> eat, says she"> "how many times have i asked you to stop looking at me like 'this',> says he">>> Nisargadatta , "johanhb" <yohansky wrote:> >> > Nisargadatta , "Werner Woehr" <wwoehr@>> > wrote:>Or both, definitely both.I suggest divorce, murder and then cannibalism. No point wasting the meat. ;)tyga Good thinkin.......Very efficient.Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 souldreamone wrote: > The only solution I can see is divorce............Oh, and > murder.....that's a possibility too. > > > In a message dated 26/10/2008 4:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > ericparoissien writes: > > Maybe you two guys Werner and Johan have been cooped up too long on > this thread like an old couple on a small boat for weeks: > " I've come to hate the way you make noise with your mouth when you > eat, says she " > " how many times have i asked you to stop looking at me like 'this', > says he " > > > Nisargadatta , " johanhb " <yohansky wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > Or both, definitely both. I suggest divorce, murder and then cannibalism. No point wasting the meat. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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