Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 10-25-08 – Post Is all suffering imagination? What is the cause of suffering? Other than thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, does suffering exist at all? Is suffering rooted in the thought, concept, idea, assumption, belief, story, image that this is my life and I have to somehow make it work? Is suffering rooted in the untrue thought, the erroneous concept, the wrong idea, the false assumption, the fallacious, invalid, misleading, deceiving, delusory belief, the fictitious story, the running commentary, the fictional, imaginary, illusory, unreal image of the presence of a separate independent self-center, reference point, I me entity, individual, person? Who is suffering? What is the nature of suffering? Is suffering nothing other than self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking itself? Is the separate independent self-center, reference point, I me entity, individual, person, the root of all self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking, imaginary, just imagination? Is the I me thought added to the presently appearing sensation claiming I'm suffering? But is it true? Apart from thought, where is this I, where is this me, where is this suffering? Is all my suffering based on an imaginary I me entity, a thought based I me entity, a conceptual I me entity? Is the secondary added identification, the secondary added involvement of the conceptual I me entity, of the I me thought, the I me concept, the suffering itself? Is all suffering imagination? Is all my suffering based in imagination? Is there any suffering apart from imagination? Is all my suffering an imaginary story? Is what the imaginary story, is about, the suffering, or is the imaginary story itself the suffering? Without an imaginary story, without imagination, can there be any suffering? Other than the separate independent I me thought, concept, idea, assumption, belief, story, can any separate independent I me entity, individual, person be found? Is it non-existent? Is there no separate independent I me entity, individual, person, and yet, I am, present and aware? Are thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, imagination just appearances arising because of, in and as non-dual, one without a second, non-conceptual, space-like awareness? Is this I, not a separate independent entity, individual, person, but awareness itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 billeastmusic wrote: > 10-25-08 – Post > Is all suffering imagination? > > What is the cause of suffering? Other than thoughts, concepts, ideas, > assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, does suffering exist at all? > Is suffering rooted in the thought, concept, idea, assumption, > belief, story, image that this is my life and I have to somehow make > it work? Is suffering rooted in the untrue thought, the erroneous > concept, the wrong idea, the false assumption, the fallacious, > invalid, misleading, deceiving, delusory belief, the fictitious > story, the running commentary, the fictional, imaginary, illusory, > unreal image of the presence of a separate independent self-center, > reference point, I me entity, individual, person? > > Who is suffering? What is the nature of suffering? Is suffering > nothing other than self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, > self-centered thinking itself? > > Is the separate independent self-center, reference point, I me > entity, individual, person, the root of all self-centered thought, > self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking, imaginary, just > imagination? Is the I me thought added to the presently appearing > sensation claiming I'm suffering? But is it true? Apart from thought, > where is this I, where is this me, where is this suffering? > > Is all my suffering based on an imaginary I me entity, a thought > based I me entity, a conceptual I me entity? Is the secondary added > identification, the secondary added involvement of the conceptual I > me entity, of the I me thought, the I me concept, the suffering > itself? > > Is all suffering imagination? Is all my suffering based in > imagination? Is there any suffering apart from imagination? Is all my > suffering an imaginary story? Is what the imaginary story, is about, > the suffering, or is the imaginary story itself the suffering? > Without an imaginary story, without imagination, can there be any > suffering? > > Other than the separate independent I me thought, concept, idea, > assumption, belief, story, can any separate independent I me entity, > individual, person be found? Is it non-existent? Is there no separate > independent I me entity, individual, person, and yet, I am, present > and aware? Are thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, > stories, images, imagination just appearances arising because of, in > and as non-dual, one without a second, non-conceptual, space-like > awareness? Is this I, not a separate independent entity, individual, > person, but awareness itself? > > > > > --- > > Suffering is credit created from debt. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yup. In a message dated 10/25/2008 2:13:21 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, billeast writes: 10-25-08 – Post Is all suffering imagination? What is the cause of suffering? Other than thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, does suffering exist at all? Is suffering rooted in the thought, concept, idea, assumption, belief, story, image that this is my life and I have to somehow make it work? Is suffering rooted in the untrue thought, the erroneous concept, the wrong idea, the false assumption, the fallacious, invalid, misleading, deceiving, delusory belief, the fictitious story, the running commentary, the fictional, imaginary, illusory, unreal image of the presence of a separate independent self-center, reference point, I me entity, individual, person? Who is suffering? What is the nature of suffering? Is suffering nothing other than self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking itself? Is the separate independent self-center, reference point, I me entity, individual, person, the root of all self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking, imaginary, just imagination? Is the I me thought added to the presently appearing sensation claiming I'm suffering? But is it true? Apart from thought, where is this I, where is this me, where is this suffering? Is all my suffering based on an imaginary I me entity, a thought based I me entity, a conceptual I me entity? Is the secondary added identification, the secondary added involvement of the conceptual I me entity, of the I me thought, the I me concept, the suffering itself? Is all suffering imagination? Is all my suffering based in imagination? Is there any suffering apart from imagination? Is all my suffering an imaginary story? Is what the imaginary story, is about, the suffering, or is the imaginary story itself the suffering? Without an imaginary story, without imagination, can there be any suffering? Other than the separate independent I me thought, concept, idea, assumption, belief, story, can any separate independent I me entity, individual, person be found? Is it non-existent? Is there no separate independent I me entity, individual, person, and yet, I am, present and aware? Are thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, imagination just appearances arising because of, in and as non-dual, one without a second, non-conceptual, space-like awareness? Is this I, not a separate independent entity, individual, person, but awareness itself? Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 How so? Phil In a message dated 10/25/2008 3:28:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: Suffering is credit created from debt.tygaPlay online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 In a message dated 25/10/2008 2:35:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: souldreamone wrote:> How so?> Phil> > In a message dated 10/25/2008 3:28:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > tyga writes:>> Suffering is credit created from debt.>>> tyga>http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=money+as+debt & hl=en & emb=0 & aq=0 & oq=money+as#andhttp://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912 & ei=WJADSfryBZzaqAOsvMGzAQ & q=zeitgeist+addendum & hl=enDecide for your self.tyga Silly me, I thought you were speaking metphorically. If life is essentially a dream of Consciousness, do the events in the dream cause the suffering, or does the ignorance that leads to suffering cause the dream? Does life happen from the outside in, or from the inside out? Does the world determine the quality of your experience, or is it your perception of the world that does that?Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 souldreamone wrote: > How so? > Phil > > In a message dated 10/25/2008 3:28:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > tyga writes: > > Suffering is credit created from debt. > > > tyga > http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=money+as+debt & hl=en & emb=0 & aq=0 & oq=money\ +as# and http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912 & ei=WJADSfryBZzaqA\ OsvMGzAQ & q=zeitgeist+addendum & hl=en Decide for your self. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 souldreamone wrote: > In a message dated 25/10/2008 2:35:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > tyga writes: > > souldreamone wrote: > > How so? > > Phil > > > > In a message dated 10/25/2008 3:28:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > tyga writes: > > > > Suffering is credit created from debt. > > > > > > tyga > > > http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=money+as+debt & hl=en & emb=0 & aq=0 & oq=money\ +as# > > and > > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912 & ei=WJADSfryBZzaqA\ OsvMGzAQ & q=zeitgeist+addendum & hl=en > > > Decide for your self. > > > tyga > > Silly me, I thought you were speaking metphorically. > If life is essentially a dream of Consciousness, do the events in the > dream cause the suffering, or does the ignorance that leads to > suffering cause the dream? Does life happen from the outside in, or > from the inside out? Does the world determine the quality of your > experience, or is it your perception of the world that does that? > > > > ------ I suppose I didn't make myself clear anyway, so don't think yourself silly for thinking I was speaking metaphorically. " If life is essentially a dream of Consciousness, do the events in the dream cause the suffering, or does the ignorance that leads to suffering cause the dream? " I used to believe I knew the answer to these sorts of questions, but now I am not quite so sure. It could be both of what you propose, I guess. Most people here though would probably respond with something like, " there is no dream, there is no suffering, there is no dreamer " , so on and so forth, ad nauseum. I tend to believe that this sort of dismissive attitude does nothing to help people sort out there confused minds and can be in a sense, a form of passive aggression unless included with practical explanations. Suffering though is ignorance, in my opinion, the ignorance to not see that there is a choice. We suffer because we choose to suffer. I could be in great pain for example and many people would expect me to suffer from the pain, but that is not necessarily so, many people in great pain do not suffer but instead become much stronger. Or many people that are not in any pain, suffer immensely, confusing the suffering with pain which feeds upon itself in a repeating patter of suffering confused as pain until they become the suffering. People are often heavily invested in their pain and suffering. Maybe the question then really ought to be, 'who or what is choosing to suffer'? If life is essentially a dream of consciousness and I am life, then it is consciousness choosing to dream of suffering. But if consciousness is also a dream of consciousness, then there is no I to dream of suffering. Consciousness is its own content, it is the dream and the dreamer simultaneously. In my opinion, it is the ignorance of the nature of consciousness which causes the content of the dream to be perceived as suffering. " Does life happen from the outside in or from the inside out? Does the world determine the quality of your experience, or is it your perception of the world that does that? " The outside or inside of what exactly? Life happens within the realm of consciousness, I don't think it really matters whether it be inside or outside, all sides are the same. Perception though, does alter the experience. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 In a message dated 10/25/2008 5:47:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: I suppose I didn't make myself clear anyway, so don't think yourself silly for thinking I was speaking metaphorically."If life is essentially a dream of Consciousness, do the events in the dream cause the suffering, or does the ignorance that leads to suffering cause the dream?"I used to believe I knew the answer to these sorts of questions, but now I am not quite so sure. It could be both of what you propose, I guess. Most people here though would probably respond with something like, " there is no dream, there is no suffering, there is no dreamer", so on and so forth, ad nauseum. I tend to believe that this sort of dismissive attitude does nothing to help people sort out there confused minds ****Yes, I agree with that. I think mostly it comes out of the idea that if we repeat it to ourselves enough times, we might start to believe it. Hehe. But really, that never works. There are also some who have gained a lot of clarity from self inquiry and maybe what can be said about that clarity is that everything is thrown into doubt and we simply don't know anymore. Not knowing is an excellent place to be and really the best mind can do, because mind can never know anything for sure, it can just pretend to.Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 In a message dated 10/25/2008 5:47:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: Suffering though is ignorance, in my opinion, the ignorance to not see that there is a choice. We suffer because we choose to suffer. I could be in great pain for example and many people would expect me to suffer from the pain, but that is not necessarily so, many people in great pain do not suffer but instead become much stronger. Or many people that are not in any pain, suffer immensely, confusing the suffering with pain which feeds upon itself in a repeating patter of suffering confused as pain until they become the suffering. People are often heavily invested in their pain and suffering. ****I agree that suffering is ignorance. Pain, emotional or physical, is not suffering. Suffering happens when the 'me' runs with it, and so it is formed in the mind. Obviously, it's not an easy matter to stop doing that, particularly in the face of major loss or severe pain, but it's helpful to notice how it comes about. Maybe the question then really ought to be, 'who or what is choosing to suffer'? ****Well, we could go around saying there is no me. I'm not big on the whole choice deally because I clearly see there is no choice, but yes, it's very helpful to notice the sufferer can't be found. If life is essentially a dream of consciousness and I am life, then it is consciousness choosing to dream of suffering. But if consciousness is also a dream of consciousness, then there is no I to dream of suffering. Consciousness is its own content, it is the dream and the dreamer simultaneously. In my opinion, it is the ignorance of the nature of consciousness which causes the content of the dream to be perceived as suffering. ****Consciousness identifies with it's own creation, yes. "Does life happen from the outside in or from the inside out? Does the world determine the quality of your experience, or is it your perception of the world that does that?"The outside or inside of what exactly?Life happens within the realm of consciousness, I don't think it really matters whether it be inside or outside, all sides are the same. Perception though, does alter the experience.tyga *****The 'inside/outside' is just symbolic. The question is, is there an objective world that the perceiver responds to, or does even the world arise from within the perceiver as a part of Consciousness itself? You seem to be implying the latter when you say "Life happens within the realm of Consciousness", and I agree. As such, pointing 'outward' to the dreamscape as the cause of suffering would not be correct. Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 To use the Yosyx/satsang Mantra... BOOM! Soul , " billeastmusic " <billeast wrote: > > 10-25-08 – Post > Is all suffering imagination? > > What is the cause of suffering? Other than thoughts, concepts, ideas, > assumptions, beliefs, stories, images, does suffering exist at all? > Is suffering rooted in the thought, concept, idea, assumption, > belief, story, image that this is my life and I have to somehow make > it work? Is suffering rooted in the untrue thought, the erroneous > concept, the wrong idea, the false assumption, the fallacious, > invalid, misleading, deceiving, delusory belief, the fictitious > story, the running commentary, the fictional, imaginary, illusory, > unreal image of the presence of a separate independent self-center, > reference point, I me entity, individual, person? > > Who is suffering? What is the nature of suffering? Is suffering > nothing other than self-centered thought, self-centered concepts, > self-centered thinking itself? > > Is the separate independent self-center, reference point, I me > entity, individual, person, the root of all self-centered thought, > self-centered concepts, self-centered thinking, imaginary, just > imagination? Is the I me thought added to the presently appearing > sensation claiming I'm suffering? But is it true? Apart from thought, > where is this I, where is this me, where is this suffering? > > Is all my suffering based on an imaginary I me entity, a thought > based I me entity, a conceptual I me entity? Is the secondary added > identification, the secondary added involvement of the conceptual I > me entity, of the I me thought, the I me concept, the suffering > itself? > > Is all suffering imagination? Is all my suffering based in > imagination? Is there any suffering apart from imagination? Is all my > suffering an imaginary story? Is what the imaginary story, is about, > the suffering, or is the imaginary story itself the suffering? > Without an imaginary story, without imagination, can there be any > suffering? > > Other than the separate independent I me thought, concept, idea, > assumption, belief, story, can any separate independent I me entity, > individual, person be found? Is it non-existent? Is there no separate > independent I me entity, individual, person, and yet, I am, present > and aware? Are thoughts, concepts, ideas, assumptions, beliefs, > stories, images, imagination just appearances arising because of, in > and as non-dual, one without a second, non-conceptual, space-like > awareness? Is this I, not a separate independent entity, individual, > person, but awareness itself? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 souldreamone wrote: > > > > > *****The 'inside/outside' is just symbolic. The question is, is > there an objective world that the perceiver responds to, or does > even the world arise from within the perceiver as a part of > Consciousness itself? You seem to be implying the latter when you > say " Life happens within the realm of Consciousness " , and I agree. > As such, pointing 'outward' to the dreamscape as the cause of > suffering would not be correct. > > > > > > ------ It is interesting though to conceive, that the universe out there, is perceived and interpreted in here, so to speak. The universe we more or less are fairly certain exists outside of ourself, outside of our mind/body, is experienced inside the mind/body, processed and interpreted by the brain. Generally speaking, there is no real way that we are aware of for the human mind/body to know whether there even is an out there separate from its own experience, we assume there is though. If we take a dream for example, we are almost 100% in agreement that the dream, the dream content, and the dreamer, are all one and the same. There is literally nothing within the dream of the dreamer that is not the dreamer. If I dream of a tree, the tree is not a literal tree, it is an imagined tree which consists entirely of my imagination of a tree, so on and so forth. In the real world that we experience as physical though, as opposed to ethereal, if I see a tree I am literally seeing a real physical tree. Or am I? As far as we know, we are seeing the light that bounced off of the tree, entered our eye upside down, travelled to the brain via meaty wires, converted to the right way up and then the light interpreted, building a picture and a definition within our conscious experience based on what we already know about trees. How can we be absolutely certain that there is a tree, out there? We cannot. Out there IS in here, as far as we are concerned. We then have very real control over how we choose to experience things emotionally. I am currently very curious about some ideas surrounding the third eye though, supposed to be the eye that sees in the darkness ( meditation), the Christ consciousness eye, so to speak, which has been attributed to the pineal gland located in the middle of the brain directly behind the eyes, which is apparently activated by meditation. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 In a message dated 26/10/2008 2:52:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tyga writes: In the real world that we experience as physical though, as opposed to ethereal, if I see a tree I am literally seeing a real physical tree. Or am I? As far as we know, we are seeing the light that bounced off of the tree, entered our eye upside down, travelled to the brain via meaty wires, converted to the right way up and then the light interpreted, building a picture and a definition within our conscious experience based on what we already know about trees. How can we be absolutely certain that there is a tree, out there? We cannot.Out there IS in here, as far as we are concerned. We then have very real control over how we choose to experience things emotionally.I am currently very curious about some ideas surrounding the third eye though, supposed to be the eye that sees in the darkness ( meditation), the Christ consciousness eye, so to speak, which has been attributed to the pineal gland located in the middle of the brain directly behind the eyes, which is apparently activated by meditation.tyga Yes, as I see it, while our nightly dreams are entirely formed by our own imagination, our waking lives are a kind of dream formed in Consciousness collectively, so to speak, and expressed individually. So, the physical tree that you see is not your personal creation but it is also not objectively present, since your perception is formed in Consciousness and merely expressed in the form of perceiving. To put it more obviously, God didn't go to his workshop and build trees and then build a person to observe trees, there is just perception happening without a perceiver or anything perceived. No subject, no object, just the perceiving itself. The body and it's senses form in Consciousness in response to the question, 'How am I perceiving?', and so just like all perception, it's a story unfolding in Consciousness. Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Yes ALL SUFFERING IS AN ILLUSION! Where does this suffering go when you go into 'deep sleep'....where there is nothing? Look up the hypnosis data from John Hopkins where major surgery is done without any pain whatsoever cause the patient is under hypnosis. Everything comes from the ORIGINAL DREAMER....yet HE DOESN`T EXIST EITHER. If you took money , fame, position from an infant he wouldn`t feel any pain or loss. Actually if you stick an infant if he`s really young he won`t feel physical pain... this may be while still in the womb.Pain and suffering are LEARNED RESPONSES. The world is a learned response a dream from THAT yet he isn`t......as ALL IS ONE...not TWO like cause and effect. k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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