Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 In a message dated 31/10/2008 7:50:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pedsie6 writes: Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote:>> > > > In a message dated 10/30/2008 11:04:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > pedsie6 writes:> > > > > Selfhood> > > > is the fencing of the landscape,> > > > my little farm masquerading as> > > > the sea of grass which is the plain.> >> > Pete, what's your view on why that happens, and why it goes on> > happening regardless of one's intellectual understanding of the > > process?> >> > Cheers,> > Jack.> > P: Hi Jack,> > To me "why" is a social question. People have> motivations. They do things or not for certain reasons> or emotions to get certain results. In nature, there is> no why, there are only what, how, where and when.> > I have found that when I pay complete attention to> sights and sounds as if I were a tourist seeing an> exotic place for the first time, this seeing is likely> to happen. This needs a wide focus intense attention,> that produces an absorption which prevents thinking.> > I don't think how one explains its nature facilitates it or hinders> it. If you say, it's God's will, and you pay the above attention,> it happens as often as if you say It's matter, or the unknown> seeing itself.> >> > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com> > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com> > > Pete> > > > Ph: Yes but......P: No, don't say, Yes, but... Youdidn't get what I said. I doesn'treally matter whether one believesone has a self, or not. It's perceivingwith a divided mind, always thinking abouthis or that which occludes.When attention is intense, all encompassingwithout any thought whatsoever, no identificationis there because identification is a thought. Itdoesn't much matter whether you believe in pinkelephants or not. As long as you think of a pinkelephant, pink elephants are there evenwhen the thought is: pink elephants do not exist.So, what I'm saying is not theory is practice.The practice of undivided attention without thought.NNB ****Phil: Yes, but.......the OP was not asking about your "practice", he was asking why intellectual understanding of the formation and maintenance of selfhood doesn't put an end to it arising. If you want to actually read my perspective on why that is so, instead of dismissing it because it wasn't all about your side trip, you can find it below. As to your non-theoretical 'practice', I call it alert attention in the absence of thought, and in my 'practice' I can often initiate it by asking, 'What's present here beyond what I seem to see?' The difficulty with this is that what is believed about selfhood matters very much since during this "intense attention" the self becomes irrelevant. We're used to asking 'What does this mean to me?' with regard to everything in our perception. (I don't mean that the question is literally asked. I mean that everything is evaluated according to the needs of the self) This is how the imaginary 'me' sustains itself, and to be fully present without such 'me' thoughts is to threaten ego with starvation. This is why you cannot maintain this 'intense attention' for long. The less the self is believed in, the easier it is to be present without 'me' thoughts arising, and you might even find it happening spontaneously without a non-theoretical practice. as you say, we operate according to desire and agenda, and > being present without thought doesn't happen based on somebody else's > recommendation of something good to do. It comes about through anunderstanding of the > imprisoning nature of thought defining the self, and so thequestion of how > this intense focus on the self arises and continues is of significance.> > Experience, itself, presupposes a subject/object split. There mustbe an > experiencer and an experience, and part of the experience is thatthere are > other experiencers that are having different experiences, so it's nomystery how > it happens that this unique focal point of experience is assignedthe label > of an independent self who experiences. The attributes of this selfare simply > extensions built on that foundational assumption.> > When we look at this apparent experiencer, we notice the original assumption > and we find that the person consists entirely of those extensions, or > defining qualities and characteristics, and is actually devoid of afoundation. We > notice that the experiencer, itself, is being experienced too, andso the > self becomes just another part of experience. > > At this point, if mind were able to grasp the actual experiencer, itwould > be an easy matter to let go of the person who clearly doesn't haveany reality > anyway. However, mind is also part of the experience, consisting of > 'thoughts about' the experience, and so mind functions only in therealm of > subject/object. As mind looks for an object that is the realexperiencer, it either > conceptualizes one falsely or it draws a blank, since the experiencer is not an > object at all but rather the subject; the same subject that islooking in > mind for itself as an object.> > The bottom line is that the best mind can do is notice it's own > misconceptions, and see that there really is no person here. At thispoint, there is > nowhere else for mind to go, and meanwhile, mind is still bombardedby objective > evidence of it's apparent existence. Mind is not involved in the event of > subject noticing itself subjectively, and so it must recognize the futility of > seeking it, and drop the seeking. Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 10/30/2008 11:04:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > pedsie6 writes: > > > > > Selfhood > > > > is the fencing of the landscape, > > > > my little farm masquerading as > > > > the sea of grass which is the plain. > > > > Pete, what's your view on why that happens, and why it goes on > > happening regardless of one's intellectual understanding of the > > process? > > > > Cheers, > > Jack. > > P: Hi Jack, > > To me " why " is a social question. People have > motivations. They do things or not for certain reasons > or emotions to get certain results. In nature, there is > no why, there are only what, how, where and when. > > I have found that when I pay complete attention to > sights and sounds as if I were a tourist seeing an > exotic place for the first time, this seeing is likely > to happen. This needs a wide focus intense attention, > that produces an absorption which prevents thinking. > > I don't think how one explains its nature facilitates it or hinders > it. If you say, it's God's will, and you pay the above attention, > it happens as often as if you say It's matter, or the unknown > seeing itself. > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > Pete > > > > Ph: Yes but...... P: No, don't say, Yes, but... You didn't get what I said. I doesn't really matter whether one believes one has a self, or not. It's perceiving with a divided mind, always thinking about his or that which occludes. When attention is intense, all encompassing without any thought whatsoever, no identification is there because identification is a thought. It doesn't much matter whether you believe in pink elephants or not. As long as you think of a pink elephant, pink elephants are there even when the thought is: pink elephants do not exist. So, what I'm saying is not theory is practice. The practice of undivided attention without thought. NNB as you say, we operate according to desire and agenda, and > being present without thought doesn't happen based on somebody else's > recommendation of something good to do. It comes about through an understanding of the > imprisoning nature of thought defining the self, and so the question of how > this intense focus on the self arises and continues is of significance. > > Experience, itself, presupposes a subject/object split. There must be an > experiencer and an experience, and part of the experience is that there are > other experiencers that are having different experiences, so it's no mystery how > it happens that this unique focal point of experience is assigned the label > of an independent self who experiences. The attributes of this self are simply > extensions built on that foundational assumption. > > When we look at this apparent experiencer, we notice the original assumption > and we find that the person consists entirely of those extensions, or > defining qualities and characteristics, and is actually devoid of a foundation. We > notice that the experiencer, itself, is being experienced too, and so the > self becomes just another part of experience. > > At this point, if mind were able to grasp the actual experiencer, it would > be an easy matter to let go of the person who clearly doesn't have any reality > anyway. However, mind is also part of the experience, consisting of > 'thoughts about' the experience, and so mind functions only in the realm of > subject/object. As mind looks for an object that is the real experiencer, it either > conceptualizes one falsely or it draws a blank, since the experiencer is not an > object at all but rather the subject; the same subject that is looking in > mind for itself as an object. > > The bottom line is that the best mind can do is notice it's own > misconceptions, and see that there really is no person here. At this point, there is > nowhere else for mind to go, and meanwhile, mind is still bombarded by objective > evidence of it's apparent existence. Mind is not involved in the event of > subject noticing itself subjectively, and so it must recognize the futility of > seeking it, and drop the seeking. > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > 5 Travel Deals! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://\ travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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