Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 > > > awareness is present always. > > Mark P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: Have you perceived that, or are you repeating the words of another? If it's your perception, then, what is the perceptual difference between being conscious and being aware? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 - > > > > P: Yes, too subtle! Please explain. Is this moment > > that you refer to, different from consciousness? Or is > > this moment identical with this consciousness > > now? When you are unconscious can there be moments > > then? If you are satisfied with this moment, then, > > you don't transcend consciousness. > > > > Maharaj recommended that we investigate words, and > > consciousness to realize what is prior to > > consciousness. Let me say it again, in a more graphic > > way, so that it's easy to understand. Majarah's words > > are the menu, if you keep reading the menu withoout > > ordering the food, no thing gets done. If a small > > child is handed a menu, he/she would play with it > > put it in his mouth, chew at it, but not order food. > > > > This is not about playing with concepts, it's > > about realizing that the games we play with words, > > and our fascination with perception hides the > > absolute. > > > > > > yes the moment is awareness. But why the focus on mind > activity. focusing on the words, and the games is more > minderbation.Enough I say. > > Mark P: A seeker has to focus on what prevents realization. Discussing what others have said realization is does him/her no good. It's like someone wearing muddy glasses discussing the beauty of the landscape. His first priority should be to clean the lenses. Mind activity an language are the dirt which hides or distorts the absolute. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > > > > awareness is present always. > > > > Mark > > P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > the words of another? If it's your perception, > then, what is the perceptual difference between > being conscious and being aware? > > > > of course it is my perception there are no others. you can't seem to get out of the way of your own mind to perceive that and if you ever do it will be your perception as well. Since it is so important that you have a question I would put it like this: I am aware of being conscious. I am not conscious of being aware. consciousness only appears in awareness. or something like that. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > - > > > > > > > P: Yes, too subtle! Please explain. Is this moment > > > that you refer to, different from consciousness? Or is > > > this moment identical with this consciousness > > > now? When you are unconscious can there be moments > > > then? If you are satisfied with this moment, then, > > > you don't transcend consciousness. > > > > > > Maharaj recommended that we investigate words, and > > > consciousness to realize what is prior to > > > consciousness. Let me say it again, in a more graphic > > > way, so that it's easy to understand. Majarah's words > > > are the menu, if you keep reading the menu withoout > > > ordering the food, no thing gets done. If a small > > > child is handed a menu, he/she would play with it > > > put it in his mouth, chew at it, but not order food. > > > > > > This is not about playing with concepts, it's > > > about realizing that the games we play with words, > > > and our fascination with perception hides the > > > absolute. > > > > > > > > > yes the moment is awareness. But why the focus on mind > > activity. focusing on the words, and the games is more > > minderbation.Enough I say. > > > > Mark > > P: A seeker has to focus on what prevents > realization. Discussing what others have > said realization is does him/her no good. > > It's like someone wearing muddy glasses > discussing the beauty of the landscape. > His first priority should be to clean the > lenses. Mind activity an language are the > dirt which hides or distorts the absolute. > > > here lies the trap of mind mind can never clean it's own mud because it is the mud. one will never get clean enough, rather than just being the mud so they settle for the awakened ego to keep the wolfs at bay. this is ego survival work. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 marktimmins60 wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > >> >>> awareness is present always. >>> >>> Mark >>> >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: >> >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating >> the words of another? If it's your perception, >> then, what is the perceptual difference between >> being conscious and being aware? >> >> > of course it is my perception > there are no others. > you can't seem to get out > of the way of your own mind to perceive > that and if you ever do it will be your > perception as well. > Since it is so important that you > have a question I would put it like this: > I am aware of being conscious. > I am not conscious of being aware. > consciousness only appears in awareness. > or something like that. > Mark > > > --- > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I believe. Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness and consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and consciousness. Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be perceived. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga wrote: > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > >> > >>> awareness is present always. > >>> > >>> Mark > >>> > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > >> > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > >> being conscious and being aware? > >> > >> > > of course it is my perception > > there are no others. > > you can't seem to get out > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > perception as well. > > Since it is so important that you > > have a question I would put it like this: > > I am aware of being conscious. > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > or something like that. > > Mark > > > > > > --- > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I believe. > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness and > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > consciousness. > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be > perceived. > > tyga UNBORN. awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. mythical horns. painting. panting. nothing. Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. not one other than itself the very other. counting flowers on the wall.. doesn't bother at all. playing solitaire with a deck of 51. fun though. especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. this has not been a gift of words. :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > > > > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > what did you come to understand of Nisargadatta's > > > > > teaching in your mind? Pete, I ask for the third time. Can > you > > > > > answear a simple question? > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > > Allow me to step in because you make the impression that you > did > > > > understamd Niz. > > > > > > > > What I never understod was Niz's statement that awareness is > the > > > base > > > > of consciousness. First there must be awareness and then > > > > consciousness can arise. > > > > > > > > Can you explain it to me ? > > > > > > > > If I have put that question in a wrong way it is dues to my > > missing > > > > understanding. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > Werner > > > there is no consciousness without awareness. when you sleep you > are > > > not conscious,but when you awake you are aware that you were > > asleep, > > > are you not? > > > > > > Yes, but remembering the past is memory which then became the > content > > of consciousness. > > > > > > > there are levels of consiousness that arise when you are > > > aware. > > > > > > Sorry, there only is consciousness but no levels. Those so > > called " levels " of consciousness are created by the categorizing > > thought. > > > > > > > but the question I have is why does it matter? > > > Mark > > > > > > Does heavy tooth ache matter ? Maybe not for you but definitely for > > me, I will hurry like hell to get to the dentist > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > awareness is present always. > memory is mind. > does a dog have the same consciousness as a human? > of course there are levels. > your toothache don't matter to me. > Mark > Mark, There is only consciousness. Categorizing it into levels is done by thought and its need to create systems. Can you see that ? Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > awareness is present always. > > > > > > Mark > > > > P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > > > Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > the words of another? If it's your perception, > > then, what is the perceptual difference between > > being conscious and being aware? > > > > > > > > M: of course it is my perception > there are no others. P: Can you read? I didn't ask you that. But since you brought up that you perceive that there are no others, then, why do you post here? Do you stand in front of a mirror and talk to yourself? > >M: Since it is so important that you > have a question I would put it like this: > I am aware of being conscious. > I am not conscious of being aware. > consciousness only appears in awareness. > or something like that. P: So, awareness is for you a theory that you have read about, and you cannot be sure it exists, much less that consciousness appears in it. > Mark > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be > perceived. > > tyga P: Are you sure you know the difference between perception and experiencing and how they relate to what you wrote? Why not define both words? What is the difference, exactly? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>> awareness is present always. > > >>> > > >>> Mark > > >>> > > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > >> > > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > > >> being conscious and being aware? > > >> > > >> > > > of course it is my perception > > > there are no others. > > > you can't seem to get out > > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > > perception as well. > > > Since it is so important that you > > > have a question I would put it like this: > > > I am aware of being conscious. > > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > > or something like that. > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I > believe. > > > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness and > > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > > consciousness. > > > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be > > perceived. > > > > tyga > > > > > > UNBORN. > > awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. > > mythical horns. > > painting. > > panting. > > nothing. > > Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. > > not one other than itself the very other. > > counting flowers on the wall.. > > doesn't bother at all. > > playing solitaire with a deck of 51. > > fun though. > > especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. > > man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. > > when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. > > this has not been a gift of words. > > :-) > > .b b.b. > indeed, there is no gift here only words and more words and still no closer to the point agreement is highly overrated anyway Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >>> awareness is present always. > > > >>> > > > >>> Mark > > > >>> > > > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > > >> > > > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > > > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > > > >> being conscious and being aware? > > > >> > > > >> > > > > of course it is my perception > > > > there are no others. > > > > you can't seem to get out > > > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > > > perception as well. > > > > Since it is so important that you > > > > have a question I would put it like this: > > > > I am aware of being conscious. > > > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > > > or something like that. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > > > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I > > believe. > > > > > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > > > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness > and > > > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > > > consciousness. > > > > > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > cannot be > > > perceived. > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > > > > > > > UNBORN. > > > > awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. > > > > mythical horns. > > > > painting. > > > > panting. > > > > nothing. > > > > Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. > > > > not one other than itself the very other. > > > > counting flowers on the wall.. > > > > doesn't bother at all. > > > > playing solitaire with a deck of 51. > > > > fun though. > > > > especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. > > > > man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. > > > > when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. > > > > this has not been a gift of words. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > indeed, there is no gift here > only words and more words and > still no closer to the point > agreement is highly overrated anyway > Mark there is no point. THAT is underrated. the rater is the problem never finding solution. THAT has no ratings nor anyone to rate Itself. it is however first class... with none other. :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > > > > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> awareness is present always. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Mark > > > > >>> > > > > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > > > >> > > > > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > > > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > > > > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > > > > >> being conscious and being aware? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > of course it is my perception > > > > > there are no others. > > > > > you can't seem to get out > > > > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > > > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > > > > perception as well. > > > > > Since it is so important that you > > > > > have a question I would put it like this: > > > > > I am aware of being conscious. > > > > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > > > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > > > > or something like that. > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > > > > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I > > > believe. > > > > > > > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > > > > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness > > and > > > > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > > cannot be > > > > perceived. > > > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UNBORN. > > > > > > awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. > > > > > > mythical horns. > > > > > > painting. > > > > > > panting. > > > > > > nothing. > > > > > > Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. > > > > > > not one other than itself the very other. > > > > > > counting flowers on the wall.. > > > > > > doesn't bother at all. > > > > > > playing solitaire with a deck of 51. > > > > > > fun though. > > > > > > especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. > > > > > > man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. > > > > > > when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. > > > > > > this has not been a gift of words. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > indeed, there is no gift here > > only words and more words and > > still no closer to the point > > agreement is highly overrated anyway > > Mark > > > there is no point. > > THAT is underrated. > > the rater is the problem never finding solution. > > THAT has no ratings nor anyone to rate Itself. > > it is however first class... > > with none other. > > :-) > > .b b.b. " still no closer to the point " 'you' can never get one step 'closer' nor one step 'further'.. away from or towards your 'self'. THAT is THAT without dimension or space/time. it IS. nothing 'happens'. nothing happens within or without. there is however notion... of no one's.. that screams " not so..not so " . only that non so, is non so.' just so. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> awareness is present always. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Mark > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > > > > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > > > > > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > > > > > >> being conscious and being aware? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > of course it is my perception > > > > > > there are no others. > > > > > > you can't seem to get out > > > > > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > > > > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > > > > > perception as well. > > > > > > Since it is so important that you > > > > > > have a question I would put it like this: > > > > > > I am aware of being conscious. > > > > > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > > > > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > > > > > or something like that. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > > > > > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I > > > > believe. > > > > > > > > > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > > > > > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness > > > and > > > > > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > > > cannot be > > > > > perceived. > > > > > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UNBORN. > > > > > > > > awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. > > > > > > > > mythical horns. > > > > > > > > painting. > > > > > > > > panting. > > > > > > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. > > > > > > > > not one other than itself the very other. > > > > > > > > counting flowers on the wall.. > > > > > > > > doesn't bother at all. > > > > > > > > playing solitaire with a deck of 51. > > > > > > > > fun though. > > > > > > > > especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. > > > > > > > > man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. > > > > > > > > when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. > > > > > > > > this has not been a gift of words. > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > indeed, there is no gift here > > > only words and more words and > > > still no closer to the point > > > agreement is highly overrated anyway > > > Mark > > > > > > there is no point. > > > > THAT is underrated. > > > > the rater is the problem never finding solution. > > > > THAT has no ratings nor anyone to rate Itself. > > > > it is however first class... > > > > with none other. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > " still no closer to the point " > > 'you' can never get one step 'closer' nor one step 'further'.. > > away from or towards your 'self'. > > THAT is THAT without dimension or space/time. > > it IS. > > nothing 'happens'. > > nothing happens within or without. > > there is however notion... > > of no one's.. > > that screams " not so..not so " . > > only that non so, is non so.' > > just so. > > .b b.b. > there is a point when one posts it is unreal but nonetheless words are valuable words can point the way,if mind will step aside and intelligence is allowed in. No? but then again my brain is fried in the attempt. and perception might be skewed here. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > marktimmins60 wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> awareness is present always. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Mark > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> P: Again, I ask you what I asked Tyga: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Have you perceived that, or are you repeating > > > > > >> the words of another? If it's your perception, > > > > > >> then, what is the perceptual difference between > > > > > >> being conscious and being aware? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > of course it is my perception > > > > > > there are no others. > > > > > > you can't seem to get out > > > > > > of the way of your own mind to perceive > > > > > > that and if you ever do it will be your > > > > > > perception as well. > > > > > > Since it is so important that you > > > > > > have a question I would put it like this: > > > > > > I am aware of being conscious. > > > > > > I am not conscious of being aware. > > > > > > consciousness only appears in awareness. > > > > > > or something like that. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is a very good question. Probably one of the most > > > > > important questions, because it reveals the nature of reality, I > > > > believe. > > > > > > > > > > Everything is awareness, but without consciousness, there is no > > > > > perception. Perception then, is the interaction between awareness > > > and > > > > > consciousness. Perception IS the difference between awareness and > > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > > > cannot be > > > > > perceived. > > > > > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UNBORN. > > > > > > > > awareness...consciousness..experience...perception. > > > > Indeed,how precise you are. mythical horns. > > > > > > > > painting. > > > > > > > > panting. > > > > > > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > Insignificant to UNBORN UNCONSCIOUS UNAWARE INEXPERIENCE. > > > > insignificant that is the final cut then? only the very brave cut this line. your words scare the shit out of me. Mark > > > > not one other than itself the very other. > > > > > > > > counting flowers on the wall.. > > > > > > > > doesn't bother at all. > > > > > > > > playing solitaire with a deck of 51. > > > > > > > > fun though. > > > > > > > > especially when in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT. > > > > > > > > man does 'me' ever feal real and alive.. > > > > > > > > when 'i' feel that... and 'feel' that way. > > > > > > > > this has not been a gift of words. > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > indeed, there is no gift here > > > only words and more words and > > > still no closer to the point > > > agreement is highly overrated anyway > > > Mark > > > > > > there is no point. > > > > THAT is underrated. > > > > the rater is the problem never finding solution. > > > > THAT has no ratings nor anyone to rate Itself. > > > > it is however first class... > > > > with none other. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > " still no closer to the point " > > 'you' can never get one step 'closer' nor one step 'further'.. > > away from or towards your 'self'. > > THAT is THAT without dimension or space/time. > > it IS. > > nothing 'happens'. > > nothing happens within or without. > > there is however notion... > > of no one's.. > > that screams " not so..not so " . > > only that non so, is non so.' > > just so. > > .b b.b. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Werner Woehr wrote: > > Hi Tyga, > > Thanks for your nice reply. > My pleasure. > First let me say that I have some problems with explaining love, not > to speak of " unconditional love " . > > Why can't we just forget all that love stories and just love when we > love and don't when we don't ? > Why not do both? > Now, separation is NOT created by consciousness but by thought. It is > the categorising thought which introduces separation. > True, consciousness is many things, thought being one of those things. Obviously though, using terms such as love and unconditional love serve only to make things more confusing, so I will try not to use those terms in my analogies any more. > > >> Consciousness is like the perceptual image of everything being >> separated, individuated in space and time. >> > > > As already wrote it is not consciousness which creates separation but > it is thought which categorites the contents of consciousness. > > > >> Awareness is before >> consciousness, before space and time, where everything is one, >> undifferentiated. It is from this undifferentiated awareness that >> > the > >> differentiation may occur, becoming consciousness. It is from this >> consciousness where the mind and body find form. >> > > > First, I must tell you that the German language does't have the > word " awareness " . There is only " consciousness " . Therefore whenever > you or someone else speaks or writes about " awareness " the I have no > clue what that means. > > But during those many years visitng several lists and surfing the web > I realzed that the word awareness in most cases ís used synonymously > to consciousness and second, like in " to be aware of " , it is used in > a way as there would exist a separate entity, separate from > consciousness, which is aware of the contents of consciousness. > > In different words it is used in the sense of " the " ego is aware of " . > > > >> The body/mind and consciousness, arise out of the infinite nature >> > of > >> awareness. >> > > > Hm, infinite nature ? I have no idea what that is. And so I also have > no clue what the infinite nature of that funny " awareness " really > could be. > > Can't we forget all that infinite stuff and better get back down to > earth and behave like everyday people ? > > > It really is important to include the infinite in our concept of reality, in order that we might understand reality. Forgetting the infinite is like going to put fuel in your car but forgetting you needed a car, it doesn't work that way. The infinite is the mechanism by which everything else comes into existence. The infinitely large and the infinitely small. If we are to understand our true nature, then we need to include everything within that understanding, including the infinite. If the term " awareness " is causing us confusion, then lets not continue to use that term, lets just drop it all together. I suggest we use the term " singularity " , as a singularity (black hole) is one of the only things I know of that is infinite in nature (infinite density). The only other thing I know of that is infinite, is space itself. So we then have two examples of infinite that occur in nature, the infinite density and the infinite vacuum. So when I was referring to awareness, I was referring to both the singularity and to the vacuum. Consciousness then could be perceived as the interplay between the singularity and the vacuum (awareness), which we observe as the event horizon. Does that make more sense? tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 cerosoul wrote: >> Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be >> perceived. >> >> tyga >> > > P: Are you sure you know the difference > between perception and experiencing and > how they relate to what you wrote? > > Why not define both words? What is the > difference, exactly? > > > > > --- > > Please refer to my reply to Werner. I find all these vague terms such as " awareness " , " perception " and " experiencing " , to be serving to make things more confusing, so I though I might try another approach. tyga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: ..... > there is a point when one posts > it is unreal but nonetheless words are valuable > words can point the way,if mind will step aside > and intelligence is allowed in. No? > but then again my brain is fried in the attempt. > and perception might be skewed here. > Mark You have found that language doesn't convey really. At the 1st unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a scientist. You have found that speaking of nonduality doesn't help really. At the 2nd unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a pig-head. You have found that the 'other guy' doesn't exist really. At the 3rd unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga wrote: > > Werner Woehr wrote: > > > > Hi Tyga, > > > > Thanks for your nice reply. > > > > My pleasure. > > > First let me say that I have some problems with explaining love, not > > to speak of " unconditional love " . > > > > Why can't we just forget all that love stories and just love when we > > love and don't when we don't ? > > > > Why not do both? > > > Now, separation is NOT created by consciousness but by thought. It is > > the categorising thought which introduces separation. > > > > True, consciousness is many things, thought being one of those things. > Obviously though, using terms such as love and unconditional love serve > only to make things more confusing, so I will try not to use those terms > in my analogies any more. > > > > > > >> Consciousness is like the perceptual image of everything being > >> separated, individuated in space and time. > >> > > > > > > As already wrote it is not consciousness which creates separation but > > it is thought which categorites the contents of consciousness. > > > > > > > >> Awareness is before > >> consciousness, before space and time, where everything is one, > >> undifferentiated. It is from this undifferentiated awareness that > >> > > the > > > >> differentiation may occur, becoming consciousness. It is from this > >> consciousness where the mind and body find form. > >> > > > > > > First, I must tell you that the German language does't have the > > word " awareness " . There is only " consciousness " . Therefore whenever > > you or someone else speaks or writes about " awareness " the I have no > > clue what that means. > > > > But during those many years visitng several lists and surfing the web > > I realzed that the word awareness in most cases ís used synonymously > > to consciousness and second, like in " to be aware of " , it is used in > > a way as there would exist a separate entity, separate from > > consciousness, which is aware of the contents of consciousness. > > > > In different words it is used in the sense of " the " ego is aware of " . > > > > > > > >> The body/mind and consciousness, arise out of the infinite nature > >> > > of > > > >> awareness. > >> > > > > > > Hm, infinite nature ? I have no idea what that is. And so I also have > > no clue what the infinite nature of that funny " awareness " really > > could be. > > > > Can't we forget all that infinite stuff and better get back down to > > earth and behave like everyday people ? > > > > > > > It really is important to include the infinite in our concept of > reality, in order that we might understand reality. Forgetting the > infinite is like going to put fuel in your car but forgetting you needed > a car, it doesn't work that way. The infinite is the mechanism by which > everything else comes into existence. The infinitely large and the > infinitely small. > > If we are to understand our true nature, then we need to include > everything within that understanding, including the infinite. > > If the term " awareness " is causing us confusion, then lets not continue > to use that term, lets just drop it all together. I suggest we use the > term " singularity " , as a singularity (black hole) is one of the only > things I know of that is infinite in nature (infinite density). The only > other thing I know of that is infinite, is space itself. So we then have > two examples of infinite that occur in nature, the infinite density and > the infinite vacuum. > > > So when I was referring to awareness, I was referring to both the > singularity and to the vacuum. Consciousness then could be perceived as > the interplay between the singularity and the vacuum (awareness), which > we observe as the event horizon. > > > Does that make more sense? > > tyga yes it does. to Klingons and various other warrior races. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: ..... > > Does that make more sense? > > > > tyga > > > yes it does. > > to Klingons and various other warrior races. > > .b b.b. Good one bbb; We have unmasked the Klingon undercover agent among us, Tyga it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > .... > > > > Does that make more sense? > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > yes it does. > > > > to Klingons and various other warrior races. > > > > .b b.b. > > Good one bbb; We have unmasked the Klingon undercover agent among us, > Tyga it is. > Another *search and destroy* mission uncovered. Er...what/who was the Klingon spying on? Androids want to know... you know. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " <ericparoissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " > <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > .... > > > there is a point when one posts > > it is unreal but nonetheless words are valuable > > words can point the way,if mind will step aside > > and intelligence is allowed in. No? > > but then again my brain is fried in the attempt. > > and perception might be skewed here. > > Mark > > You have found that language doesn't convey really. > At the 1st unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a scientist. > You have found that speaking of nonduality doesn't help really. > At the 2nd unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a pig-head. > You have found that the 'other guy' doesn't exist really. > At the 3rd unpredictable factor your attempt is that of a fool. > yes there is no other guy and there is no other fool it's all you baby Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien " > <ericparoissien@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > .... > > > > > > Does that make more sense? > > > > > > > > tyga > > > > > > > > > yes it does. > > > > > > to Klingons and various other warrior races. > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > Good one bbb; We have unmasked the Klingon undercover agent among us, > > Tyga it is. > > > > > > Another *search and destroy* mission uncovered. Er...what/who was the > Klingon spying on? > > Androids want to know... you know. > > ~A > A...for Android?.... .... everything/all an ego can ever know...is him/herself there is nothing else realy to know ..... and yes... Some have a big ego....and so... much to discover.....* Marc * and to save Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga wrote: > > cerosoul wrote: > >> Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it cannot be > >> perceived. > >> > >> tyga > >> > > > > P: Are you sure you know the difference > > between perception and experiencing and > > how they relate to what you wrote? > > > > Why not define both words? What is the > > difference, exactly? > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > Please refer to my reply to Werner. > > I find all these vague terms such as " awareness " , " perception " and > " experiencing " , to be serving to make things more confusing, so I though > I might try another approach. > > tyga P: I agree, so I must be another Clingone. People who prefer to use terms such as Awareness for ultimate, infinite, absolute, etc do it, generally, because they want to survive death in one form or another. Even if it's as an impersonal awareness pervading reality, but Maharaj said quite clearly: " The absolute is not aware of itself. " What does it mean? It means, that if the absolute is not aware of itself, then it could not be awareness. To pose an unaware awareness is an oxymoron. So, those in who, clinging to life is gone are free to know that awareness raises in the absolute, but the absolute is not awareness. Awareness needs the beingness to be, and the beingness needs the body. Maharaj said your beingness is the food-body and will be gone when the body dies. So, those who do not cling to awareness, are true Clingones. ) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > cerosoul wrote: > > >> Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > cannot be > > >> perceived. > > >> > > >> tyga > > >> > > > > > > P: Are you sure you know the difference > > > between perception and experiencing and > > > how they relate to what you wrote? > > > > > > Why not define both words? What is the > > > difference, exactly? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > Please refer to my reply to Werner. > > > > I find all these vague terms such as " awareness " , " perception " and > > " experiencing " , to be serving to make things more confusing, so I > though > > I might try another approach. > > > > tyga > > P: I agree, so I must be another Clingone. > People who prefer to use terms such as > Awareness for ultimate, infinite, absolute, > etc do it, generally, because they want to > survive death in one form or another. Even if > it's as an impersonal awareness pervading > reality, but Maharaj said quite clearly: " The > absolute is not aware of itself. " > > What does it mean? It means, that if the absolute > is not aware of itself, then it could not be > awareness. To pose an unaware awareness is an > oxymoron. > > So, those in who, clinging to life is gone are > free to know that awareness raises in the absolute, > but the absolute is not awareness. Awareness needs > the beingness to be, and the beingness needs the > body. Maharaj said your beingness is the food-body > and will be gone when the body dies. > > So, those who do not cling to awareness, are > true Clingones. ) > > > > I realize you are a scholar when it comes to Nisargadatta, could you refer to what page in " I am That " Nis says that the absolute is not aware of itself. You are the absolute, are you aware? The jury is still out. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , tyga <tyga@> wrote: > > > > > > cerosoul wrote: > > > >> Awareness without consciousness can only be experienced, it > > cannot be > > > >> perceived. > > > >> > > > >> tyga > > > >> > > > > > > > > P: Are you sure you know the difference > > > > between perception and experiencing and > > > > how they relate to what you wrote? > > > > > > > > Why not define both words? What is the > > > > difference, exactly? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to my reply to Werner. > > > > > > I find all these vague terms such as " awareness " , " perception " > and > > > " experiencing " , to be serving to make things more confusing, so I > > though > > > I might try another approach. > > > > > > tyga > > > > P: I agree, so I must be another Clingone. > > People who prefer to use terms such as > > Awareness for ultimate, infinite, absolute, > > etc do it, generally, because they want to > > survive death in one form or another. Even if > > it's as an impersonal awareness pervading > > reality, but Maharaj said quite clearly: " The > > absolute is not aware of itself. " > > > > What does it mean? It means, that if the absolute > > is not aware of itself, then it could not be > > awareness. To pose an unaware awareness is an > > oxymoron. > > > > So, those in who, clinging to life is gone are > > free to know that awareness raises in the absolute, > > but the absolute is not awareness. Awareness needs > > the beingness to be, and the beingness needs the > > body. Maharaj said your beingness is the food-body > > and will be gone when the body dies. > > > > So, those who do not cling to awareness, are > > true Clingones. ) > > > > > > > > I realize you are a scholar when it comes to Nisargadatta, > could you refer to what page in " I am That " Nis says that > the absolute is not aware of itself. > You are the absolute, are you aware? The jury is still out. > > Mark > Suffice it to say I'm not a scholar in anything... Just a simple woman/mother/grandmother. However, I can say most assuredly that as much as I was unaware of my birth, I am equally unaware of my death. Beyond that.... I know nothing. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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