Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there is no such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. We get distracted and then we start to think of something. Forgetting and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, of nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused and liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two demons of ignorance. Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after another, adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. Don't correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While recognizing, don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness doesn't last very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, you need to grow used to it. A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, and for whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and longer. Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, while the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the present wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no delusion, no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and concepts.' When your practice is a training in great openness free from aiming at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto whether it is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to be something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned pleasure, once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let go of all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the essence, the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. Train in letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do that, you need to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a light that doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the switch, the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to look here or there, just be - with the light on. " As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there is no > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. Forgetting > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent ignorance > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, of > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused and > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two demons > of ignorance. > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after another, > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. Don't > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > recognizing, > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness doesn't last > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, you need > to grow used to it. > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, and for > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and longer. > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, while > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the present > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no delusion, > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > concepts.' > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from aiming > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto whether it > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to be > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned pleasure, > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let go of > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the essence, > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. Train in > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do that, > you need > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a light > that > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the switch, > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to look > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is only awareness. Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means for eventual verbal communication. There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought whihc let a thought appear as being identified. No emotion - no identification. Werner No e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there is no > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > Forgetting > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent ignorance > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, of > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused and > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two demons > > of ignorance. > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > another, > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. Don't > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > recognizing, > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness doesn't > last > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, you > need > > to grow used to it. > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, and > for > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > longer. > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > while > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the present > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no delusion, > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > concepts.' > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from aiming > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto whether > it > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to be > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > pleasure, > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let go of > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > essence, > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. Train > in > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do that, > > you need > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a light > > that > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > switch, > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to look > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is only > awareness. > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means for > eventual verbal communication. > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought whihc > let a thought appear as being identified. > > No emotion - no identification. > > Werner > > > > No e this whole bit is too wordy and thus full of thoughts. why are you so emotionally hung up on what was posted beforehand? you seem to be identified with your thoughts and emotionally confused. best of luck overcoming these shortcomings. that is...if you believe in such a silly thing as luck. :-) ..b b.b. No b.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there is no > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > Forgetting > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent ignorance > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, of > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused and > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two demons > > of ignorance. > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > another, > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. Don't > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > recognizing, > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness doesn't > last > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, you > need > > to grow used to it. > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, and > for > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > longer. > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > while > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the present > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no delusion, > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > concepts.' > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from aiming > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto whether > it > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to be > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > pleasure, > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let go of > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > essence, > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. Train > in > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do that, > > you need > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a light > > that > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > switch, > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to look > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is only > awareness. > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means for > eventual verbal communication. > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought whihc > let a thought appear as being identified. > > No emotion - no identification. > > Werner > > > > No e > P: Hi Werner, Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering the same difficulty with translation that we find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially points to the innermost nature of mind, and to call it awareness is just a simplification for beginners. It's to people who have not noticed this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out at the confusion that thinking about spirituality brings, and that being alert to perception is better than spiritual thoughts. As K said many times, is this alertness, this clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever possible without holding on to thinking as entertainment. Do you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there is no > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual ignorance. > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > Forgetting > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent ignorance > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, of > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused and > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two demons > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > another, > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. Don't > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > recognizing, > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness doesn't > > last > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, you > > need > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, and > > for > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > longer. > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > while > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the present > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no delusion, > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > concepts.' > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from aiming > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto whether > > it > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to be > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > pleasure, > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let go of > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > essence, > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. Train > > in > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do that, > > > you need > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a light > > > that > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > switch, > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to look > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is only > > awareness. > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means for > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought whihc > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > No e > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > the same difficulty with translation that we > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > call it awareness is just a simplification for > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > brings, and that being alert to perception is > better than spiritual thoughts. > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > possible without holding on to thinking as > entertainment. Do you agree? > Ok, Pete, No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of decreasing the intensity of thought. But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought trying to fulfill those promises. But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which could could do it. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > is no > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > ignorance. > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > Forgetting > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > ignorance > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > of > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > and > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > demons > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > another, > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > Don't > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > recognizing, > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > doesn't > > > last > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > you > > > need > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > and > > > for > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > longer. > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > while > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > present > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > delusion, > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > aiming > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > whether > > > it > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > be > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > pleasure, > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > go of > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > essence, > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > Train > > > in > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > that, > > > > you need > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > light > > > > that > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > switch, > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > look > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > only > > > awareness. > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > for > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > whihc > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > trying to fulfill those promises. > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > could could do it. > > Werner could could it be? :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > > is no > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > ignorance. > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > Forgetting > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > ignorance > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > > of > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > > and > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > demons > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > > another, > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > > Don't > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > doesn't > > > > last > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > > you > > > > need > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > > and > > > > for > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > > longer. > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > > while > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > present > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > delusion, > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > > aiming > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > whether > > > > it > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > > be > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > > pleasure, > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > > go of > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > > essence, > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > > Train > > > > in > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > > that, > > > > > you need > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > > light > > > > > that > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > > switch, > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > > look > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > > only > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > > for > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > > whihc > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > > could could do it. > > > > Werner > > > could could it be? > > :-) > > .b b.b. it probably should. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > > > is no > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > ignorance. > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > > ignorance > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > > > of > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > > > and > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > > demons > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > > > another, > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > > > Don't > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > > doesn't > > > > > last > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > > > you > > > > > need > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > > > and > > > > > for > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > > > longer. > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > > > while > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > > present > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > > delusion, > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > > > aiming > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > > whether > > > > > it > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > > > be > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > > > go of > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > > > essence, > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > > > Train > > > > > in > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > > > that, > > > > > > you need > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > > > light > > > > > > that > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > > > switch, > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > > > look > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > > > only > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > > > for > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > > > whihc > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > > > could could do it. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > could could it be? > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > it probably should. > > .b b.b. but..but.. could could it should? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that > there > > > > is no > > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the > moment > > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. > We get > > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > > ignorance. > > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > > > ignorance > > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > fetters > > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > rigpa, > > > > of > > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > > > > and > > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > > > demons > > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient > beings > > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. > They > > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > > > > another, > > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come > yet. > > > > Don't > > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > > > doesn't > > > > > > last > > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > > > > you > > > > > > need > > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > > > > and > > > > > > for > > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last > longer and > > > > > > longer. > > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > weaker, > > > > > > while > > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > > > present > > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > > > delusion, > > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > stronghold of > > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > phenomena and > > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > > > > aiming > > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > > > whether > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > enlightenment to > > > > be > > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > conditioned > > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > > > > go of > > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > > > > essence, > > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > > > > Train > > > > > > in > > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > > > > that, > > > > > > > you need > > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > like a > > > > light > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick > the > > > > > > switch, > > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > need to > > > > look > > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. > There is > > > > only > > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a > means > > > > for > > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > > > > whihc > > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. > For me > > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > thought > > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > > > > could could do it. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > could could it be? > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > it probably should. > > > > .b b.b. > > > but..but.. > > could could it should? > > .b b.b. > screw 'it'! :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > > is no > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > ignorance. > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > Forgetting > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > ignorance > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > > of > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > > and > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > demons > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > > another, > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > > Don't > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > doesn't > > > > last > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > > you > > > > need > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > > and > > > > for > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > > longer. > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > > while > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > present > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > delusion, > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > > aiming > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > whether > > > > it > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > > be > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > > pleasure, > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > > go of > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > > essence, > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > > Train > > > > in > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > > that, > > > > > you need > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > > light > > > > > that > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > > switch, > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > > look > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > > only > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > > for > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > > whihc > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > > could could do it. > > > > Werner > > > could could it be? > > :-) > > .b b.b. > Sorry about the double " could " . As Usual I simply wasn't able to realize all my mistypings. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that > there > > > is no > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the > moment > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We > get > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > ignorance. > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips > away. > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > > ignorance > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > fetters > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > rigpa, > > > of > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being > confused > > > and > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > > demons > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient > beings > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. > They > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing > after > > > > > another, > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this > nowness, > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come > yet. > > > Don't > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. > While > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > > doesn't > > > > > last > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being > distracted, > > > you > > > > > need > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again > recognizes, > > > and > > > > > for > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer > and > > > > > longer. > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > weaker, > > > > > while > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > > present > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > > delusion, > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > stronghold of > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > phenomena and > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free > from > > > aiming > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > > whether > > > > > it > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > enlightenment to > > > be > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > conditioned > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. > Let > > > go of > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing > the > > > > > essence, > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically > dissolved. > > > Train > > > > > in > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to > do > > > that, > > > > > > you need > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > like a > > > light > > > > > > that > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick > the > > > > > switch, > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > need to > > > look > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There > is > > > only > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a > means > > > for > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created > by > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by > thought > > > whihc > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you > wrote. > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. > For me > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the > mind > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > thought > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer > which > > > could could do it. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > could could it be? > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > Sorry about the double " could " . > > As Usual I simply wasn't able to realize all my mistypings. > > Werner > wait werner...wait.. don't jump up so fast.. there's more than meets the eye at the first gleaming of light. look at the smiley.. this is not an attack. although it's a 'first foray'. it's all fun and for fun. god almighty if we aren't having fun.. we are hidden from our Source. even if it seems nasty and impossible or relentless... or loving or nurturing or instructive.... or any 'felt' way or manner. you get the picture i'm sure. i do not want your apology...or approval. it's all just happenin' at the zoo my fellow filthy animal. it's what it is. LOL! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > is no > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > ignorance. > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > Forgetting > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > ignorance > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > of > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > and > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > demons > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > another, > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > Don't > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > recognizing, > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > doesn't > > > last > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > you > > > need > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > and > > > for > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > longer. > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > while > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > present > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > delusion, > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > aiming > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > whether > > > it > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > be > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > pleasure, > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > go of > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > essence, > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > Train > > > in > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > that, > > > > you need > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > light > > > > that > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > switch, > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > look > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > only > > > awareness. > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > for > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > whihc > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > trying to fulfill those promises. > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > could could do it. > > Werner P: Werner, thought can't claim a thing. Saying thought claims to be a doer, is like saying those two lines of words above can claim that they wrote themselves. It's the brain as a whole that is conscious of some of its functions, and it's the brain that can turn its attention to one or another of its functions. The brain can rewire itself, and thus change itself. That is common knowledge in neurology. So, we all know there are different levels of consciousness from being very tired or drunk, to being very awake and alert. The brain that prefers and stays with alertness sees that alertness as its own nature. Nothing mysterious in that. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Message #110592 of 110592 < Prev | Next > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that there > > is no > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the moment > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We get > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > ignorance. > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips away. > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > Forgetting > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > ignorance > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what fetters > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of rigpa, > > of > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being confused > > and > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > demons > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient beings > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. They > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing after > > > > another, > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this nowness, > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come yet. > > Don't > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. While > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > doesn't > > > > last > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being distracted, > > you > > > > need > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again recognizes, > > and > > > > for > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer and > > > > longer. > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and weaker, > > > > while > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > present > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > delusion, > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the stronghold of > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of phenomena and > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free from > > aiming > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > whether > > > > it > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect enlightenment to > > be > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called conditioned > > > > pleasure, > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. Let > > go of > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing the > > > > essence, > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically dissolved. > > Train > > > > in > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to do > > that, > > > > > you need > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's like a > > light > > > > > that > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick the > > > > switch, > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No need to > > look > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There is > > only > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a means > > for > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created by > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by thought > > whihc > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > P: Hi Werner, > > > > > > Don't get hook on the rimpoche using the word awareness. > > > or nondual for rigpa. Here we are encountering > > > the same difficulty with translation that we > > > find with Maharaj and awareness. Rigpa essentially > > > points to the innermost nature of mind, and to > > > call it awareness is just a simplification for > > > beginners. It's to people who have not noticed > > > this innermost nature that his writing is aimed at. > > > > > > Regarding thoughts, I believe, he is pointing out > > > at the confusion that thinking about spirituality > > > brings, and that being alert to perception is > > > better than spiritual thoughts. > > > > > > As K said many times, is this alertness, this > > > clarity that we should aim to be in, whenever > > > possible without holding on to thinking as > > > entertainment. Do you agree? > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you wrote. > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. For me > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the mind > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive thought > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer which > > could could do it. > > > > Werner > > P: Werner, thought can't claim a thing. Saying > thought claims to be a doer, is like saying those > two lines of words above can claim that they wrote > themselves. No, no, Pete, Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still is meeting. When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought and not subconscious and unconscious thought. And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant when claiming its posessions and creations. Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get communicated. It is a social function. Werner > It's the brain as a whole that is > conscious of some of its functions, and it's the > brain that can turn its attention to one or > another of its functions. The brain can rewire > itself, and thus change itself. That is common > knowledge in neurology. > > So, we all know there are different levels of > consciousness from being very tired or drunk, > to being very awake and alert. The brain that > prefers and stays with alertness sees that > alertness as its own nature. Nothing mysterious > in that. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that > there > > > is no > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the > moment > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We > get > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > ignorance. > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips > away. > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > > ignorance > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > fetters > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > rigpa, > > > of > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being > confused > > > and > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > > demons > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient > beings > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. > They > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing > after > > > > > another, > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this > nowness, > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come > yet. > > > Don't > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. > While > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > > doesn't > > > > > last > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being > distracted, > > > you > > > > > need > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again > recognizes, > > > and > > > > > for > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer > and > > > > > longer. > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > weaker, > > > > > while > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > > present > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > > delusion, > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > stronghold of > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > phenomena and > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free > from > > > aiming > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > > whether > > > > > it > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > enlightenment to > > > be > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > conditioned > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. > Let > > > go of > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing > the > > > > > essence, > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically > dissolved. > > > Train > > > > > in > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to > do > > > that, > > > > > > you need > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > like a > > > light > > > > > > that > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick > the > > > > > switch, > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > need to > > > look > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There > is > > > only > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a > means > > > for > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created > by > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by > thought > > > whihc > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you > wrote. > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. > For me > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the > mind > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > thought > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer > which > > > could could do it. > > > > > > Werner > > > No, no, Pete, > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still > is meeting. > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > communicated. It is a social function. > > Werner is it just me? werner! trying to say something about something that you know nothing about.. in a phrasing which in it's attempt to sound.. well structured and profound... comes of as just plain goofy... that is not really a cleaver thing to do. because it doesn't make sense when it's then written or said. it makes you seem stupid and i know that you're not. i'm being a friend. i've been trying to be humorous about it for some time. you do not get the joke or it's more significant lesson. with all the respect due, ..b b.b. ......... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to recognize, > > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; that > > there > > > > is no > > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately the > > moment > > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough though. We > > get > > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There are two > > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > > ignorance. > > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately slips > > away. > > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of something. > > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, coemergent > > > > ignorance > > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > > fetters > > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > > rigpa, > > > > of > > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being > > confused > > > > and > > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these two > > > > demons > > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what sentient > > beings > > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is is. > > They > > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing > > after > > > > > > another, > > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this > > nowness, > > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't come > > yet. > > > > Don't > > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge it. > > While > > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present wakefulness > > > > doesn't > > > > > > last > > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being > > distracted, > > > > you > > > > > > need > > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again > > recognizes, > > > > and > > > > > > for > > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last longer > > and > > > > > > longer. > > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > > weaker, > > > > > > while > > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When the > > > > present > > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with no > > > > delusion, > > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > > stronghold of > > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > > phenomena and > > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free > > from > > > > aiming > > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold onto > > > > whether > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > > enlightenment to > > > > be > > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > > conditioned > > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used to'. > > Let > > > > go of > > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of seeing > > the > > > > > > essence, > > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically > > dissolved. > > > > Train > > > > > > in > > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order to > > do > > > > that, > > > > > > > you need > > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > > like a > > > > light > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you flick > > the > > > > > > switch, > > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > > need to > > > > look > > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. There > > is > > > > only > > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as a > > means > > > > for > > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances created > > by > > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by > > thought > > > > whihc > > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you > > wrote. > > > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted it. > > For me > > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, of > > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the > > mind > > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > > thought > > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer > > which > > > > could could do it. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my > > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have > > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no > > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result > > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still > > is meeting. > > > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought > > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant > > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > > communicated. It is a social function. > > > > Werner > > > > is it just me? > > werner! > > trying to say something about something that you know nothing about.. > > in a phrasing which in it's attempt to sound.. > > well structured and profound... > > comes of as just plain goofy... > > that is not really a cleaver thing to do. > > because it doesn't make sense when it's then written or said. > > it makes you seem stupid and i know that you're not. > > i'm being a friend. > > i've been trying to be humorous about it for some time. Hm, Bob, I never have seen you being humerous. If you mean all those umpty LOLs and ROFLMAOs you constantly are producing then for me they rather sound like a clogged asshole desperately trying to find release Werner > > you do not get the joke or it's more significant lesson. > > with all the respect due, > > .b b.b. > > > > ........ :-) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to > recognize, > > > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; > that > > > there > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately > the > > > moment > > > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough > though. We > > > get > > > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There > are two > > > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > > > ignorance. > > > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately > slips > > > away. > > > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of > something. > > > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, > coemergent > > > > > ignorance > > > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > > > fetters > > > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > > > rigpa, > > > > > of > > > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being > > > confused > > > > > and > > > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these > two > > > > > demons > > > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what > sentient > > > beings > > > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is > is. > > > They > > > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing > > > after > > > > > > > another, > > > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this > > > nowness, > > > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't > come > > > yet. > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge > it. > > > While > > > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present > wakefulness > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > last > > > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being > > > distracted, > > > > > you > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again > > > recognizes, > > > > > and > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last > longer > > > and > > > > > > > longer. > > > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > > > weaker, > > > > > > > while > > > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When > the > > > > > present > > > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with > no > > > > > delusion, > > > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > > > stronghold of > > > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > > > phenomena and > > > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free > > > from > > > > > aiming > > > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold > onto > > > > > whether > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > > > enlightenment to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > > > conditioned > > > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used > to'. > > > Let > > > > > go of > > > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of > seeing > > > the > > > > > > > essence, > > > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically > > > dissolved. > > > > > Train > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order > to > > > do > > > > > that, > > > > > > > > you need > > > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > > > like a > > > > > light > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you > flick > > > the > > > > > > > switch, > > > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > > > need to > > > > > look > > > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. > There > > > is > > > > > only > > > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as > a > > > means > > > > > for > > > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances > created > > > by > > > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by > > > thought > > > > > whihc > > > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you > > > wrote. > > > > > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted > it. > > > For me > > > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, > of > > > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the > > > mind > > > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > > > thought > > > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer > > > which > > > > > could could do it. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > > > > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > > > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are > my > > > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > > > > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I > have > > > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > > > > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims > in no > > > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the > result > > > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and > still > > > is meeting. > > > > > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal > thought > > > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > > > > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just > arrogant > > > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > > > > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > > > communicated. It is a social function. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > is it just me? > > > > werner! > > > > trying to say something about something that you know nothing > about.. > > > > in a phrasing which in it's attempt to sound.. > > > > well structured and profound... > > > > comes of as just plain goofy... > > > > that is not really a cleaver thing to do. > > > > because it doesn't make sense when it's then written or said. > > > > it makes you seem stupid and i know that you're not. > > > > i'm being a friend. > > > > i've been trying to be humorous about it for some time. > > > Hm, Bob, > > I never have seen you being humerous. > > If you mean all those umpty LOLs and ROFLMAOs you constantly are > producing then for me they rather sound like a clogged asshole > desperately trying to find release > > Werner yep you don't get it. and wernie.. it's not the asshole that seeks relief.. it's all the shit for which the asshole acts as a valve for. the shit clog is you... trying to release utter crap.. through one you perceive to be an asshole. i won't allow it and that's why you've gotten clogged up mr. shithead. your sophomoric attempts at sounding scientific or informed.. are the sorriest ass pieces of drivel conceivable. you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. LOL! ..b b.b. p.s. now reread and review the below regarding the lesson to be learned. :-) > > you do not get the joke or it's more significant lesson. > > > > with all the respect due, > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > ........ :-) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " The essence is unidentifiable. What we need to > > recognize, > > > > > > > > > to identify, is that our essence is unidentifiable; > > that > > > > there > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > such thing being recognized. We see that immediately > > the > > > > moment > > > > > > > > > of looking in the correct way. That's not enough > > though. We > > > > get > > > > > > > > > distracted and forget, then we start to think. There > > are two > > > > > > > > > types of ignorance: coemergent ignorance and conceptual > > > > > > ignorance. > > > > > > > > > In the moment of seeing our essence it immediately > > slips > > > > away. > > > > > > > > > We get distracted and then we start to think of > > something. > > > > > > > > Forgetting > > > > > > > > > and thinking - that is the twofold ignorance, > > coemergent > > > > > > ignorance > > > > > > > > > and conceptual ignorance. The twofold ignorance is what > > > > fetters > > > > > > > > > buddha nature in sentient beings. Although the state of > > > > rigpa, > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > nondual awareness, is utterly tranquil, beyond being > > > > confused > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > liberated, unchanging like space, still there are these > > two > > > > > > demons > > > > > > > > > of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recognize rigpa, your mind essence! This is what > > sentient > > > > beings > > > > > > > > > don't do. Even if they do see, they don't know what is > > is. > > > > They > > > > > > > > > immediately start thinking of something else, one thing > > > > after > > > > > > > > another, > > > > > > > > > adding endless links to the chain of samsara. In this > > > > nowness, > > > > > > > > > past thought has vanished, and future thought hasn't > > come > > > > yet. > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > > correct your present wakefulness; simply acknowledge > > it. > > > > While > > > > > > > > > recognizing, > > > > > > > > > don't reconnect it with thoughts. This present > > wakefulness > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > last > > > > > > > > > very long; because of all our past lives of being > > > > distracted, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > to grow used to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A real yogi is a practitioner who again and again > > > > recognizes, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > whom the moments of recognizing slowly start to last > > longer > > > > and > > > > > > > > longer. > > > > > > > > > Involvement in thought automatically becomes weaker and > > > > weaker, > > > > > > > > while > > > > > > > > > the gap between thought becomes longer and longer. When > > the > > > > > > present > > > > > > > > > wakefulness is unbroken throughout day and night with > > no > > > > > > delusion, > > > > > > > > > no distraction, that is truly having captured the > > > > stronghold of > > > > > > > > > dharmakaya. It is also known as the 'exhaustion of > > > > phenomena and > > > > > > > > > concepts.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When your practice is a training in great openness free > > > > from > > > > > > aiming > > > > > > > > > at pleasure or rejecting pain, you don't need to hold > > onto > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is pleasant or painful. Sentient beings expect > > > > enlightenment to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > something which is always pleasant, That is called > > > > conditioned > > > > > > > > pleasure, > > > > > > > > > once attained it wears off, and again you suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The training is not a meditation but a 'growing used > > to'. > > > > Let > > > > > > go of > > > > > > > > > all thoughts by letting them go, In the moment of > > seeing > > > > the > > > > > > > > essence, > > > > > > > > > the thoughts of the three times are automatically > > > > dissolved. > > > > > > Train > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > letting be in naturalness, without meditating. In order > > to > > > > do > > > > > > that, > > > > > > > > > you need > > > > > > > > > to genuinely recognize rigpa. Without recognizing, it's > > > > like a > > > > > > light > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > doesn't come on until you flick the switch. Once you > > flick > > > > the > > > > > > > > switch, > > > > > > > > > the light is on and there is no need to do anything. No > > > > need to > > > > > > look > > > > > > > > > here or there, just be - with the light on. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As It Is, Vol.1 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is neither dual awareness nor non-dual awareness. > > There > > > > is > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Duality is mental, created by categorizing thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought is categorizing the contents of consciousness as > > a > > > > means > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > eventual verbal communication. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need to stop thinking. The disturbances > > created > > > > by > > > > > > > > thought are emotional. It are these emotions caused by > > > > thought > > > > > > whihc > > > > > > > > let a thought appear as being identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No emotion - no identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No e > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, Pete, > > > > > > > > > > > > No agreement or disagreement at my side. I just take what you > > > > wrote. > > > > > > > > > > > > When reading that Rimpoche stuff I wondered why you posted > > it. > > > > For me > > > > > > it was the usual promise of a change, of a more quiet mind, > > of > > > > > > decreasing the intensity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > But all these tips and pomises won't work besides filling the > > > > mind > > > > > > with more and more material and again it will be the delusive > > > > thought > > > > > > trying to fulfill those promises. > > > > > > > > > > > > But besides thought claiming to be the doer there is no doer > > > > which > > > > > > could could do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > > > > > > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > > > > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are > > my > > > > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > > > > > > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I > > have > > > > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > > > > > > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims > > in no > > > > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the > > result > > > > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and > > still > > > > is meeting. > > > > > > > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal > > thought > > > > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > > > > > > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just > > arrogant > > > > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > > > > > > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > > > > communicated. It is a social function. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > is it just me? > > > > > > werner! > > > > > > trying to say something about something that you know nothing > > about.. > > > > > > in a phrasing which in it's attempt to sound.. > > > > > > well structured and profound... > > > > > > comes of as just plain goofy... > > > > > > that is not really a cleaver thing to do. > > > > > > because it doesn't make sense when it's then written or said. > > > > > > it makes you seem stupid and i know that you're not. > > > > > > i'm being a friend. > > > > > > i've been trying to be humorous about it for some time. > > > > > > Hm, Bob, > > > > I never have seen you being humerous. > > > > If you mean all those umpty LOLs and ROFLMAOs you constantly are > > producing then for me they rather sound like a clogged asshole > > desperately trying to find release > > > > Werner > > > > > yep you don't get it. > > and wernie.. > > it's not the asshole that seeks relief.. > > it's all the shit for which the asshole acts as a valve for. > > the shit clog is you... > > trying to release utter crap.. > > through one you perceive to be an asshole. > > i won't allow it and that's why you've gotten clogged up mr. shithead. > > your sophomoric attempts at sounding scientific or informed.. > > are the sorriest ass pieces of drivel conceivable. > > you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. > > LOL! > > > .b b.b. > > p.s. > > now reread and review the below regarding the lesson to be learned. > > :-) > > Werner > > > > > you do not get the joke or it's more significant lesson. > > > > > > with all the respect due, > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > > > > > > > ........ :-) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 > > >P: It's the brain as a whole that is > > conscious of some of its functions, and it's the > > brain that can turn its attention to one or > > another of its functions. The brain can rewire > > itself, and thus change itself. That is common > > knowledge in neurology. > > > > So, we all know there are different levels of > > consciousness from being very tired or drunk, > > to being very awake and alert. The brain that > > prefers and stays with alertness sees that > > alertness as its own nature. Nothing mysterious > > in that. > > > > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still > is meeting. > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > communicated. It is a social function. > > Werner P: What I'm trying to convey to you. It's that thought,verbal or not it's a dead thing that can't claim anything. It's the brain that uses verbal thought to communicate. Just like your hand doesn't decide to move, but it's your brain which moves it. So when we speak of thought as if it were conscious of itself, we're creating confusion for ourselves, and others. Werner is not a thought, Werner is a brain: A wet, wrinkled, slimy mass of neurons representing themselves as a German artist and philosophy aficionado. PS. notice I snipped the other stuff because the posts are getting too long. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > > >P: It's the brain as a whole that is > > > conscious of some of its functions, and it's the > > > brain that can turn its attention to one or > > > another of its functions. The brain can rewire > > > itself, and thus change itself. That is common > > > knowledge in neurology. > > > > > > So, we all know there are different levels of > > > consciousness from being very tired or drunk, > > > to being very awake and alert. The brain that > > > prefers and stays with alertness sees that > > > alertness as its own nature. Nothing mysterious > > > in that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my > > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have > > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no > > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result > > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still > > is meeting. > > > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought > > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant > > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > > communicated. It is a social function. > > > > Werner > > P: What I'm trying to convey to you. It's that > thought,verbal or not it's a dead thing that > can't claim anything. It's the brain that uses > verbal thought to communicate. Just like your > hand doesn't decide to move, but it's your > brain which moves it. So when we speak of > thought as if it were conscious of itself, > we're creating confusion for ourselves, and > others. Werner is not a thought, Werner is > a brain: A wet, wrinkled, slimy mass of neurons > representing themselves as a German artist and > philosophy aficionado. > > PS. notice I snipped the other stuff because > the posts are getting too long. > > > ....as Pete may or may not be a white-haired Cuban story-teller & poet...often seen to be carrying a rather large Zen stick, whacking imaginary Werner's and Anna's in their wet, wrinkled, slimy mass of neurons... Hug. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >P: It's the brain as a whole that is > > > > conscious of some of its functions, and it's the > > > > brain that can turn its attention to one or > > > > another of its functions. The brain can rewire > > > > itself, and thus change itself. That is common > > > > knowledge in neurology. > > > > > > > > So, we all know there are different levels of > > > > consciousness from being very tired or drunk, > > > > to being very awake and alert. The brain that > > > > prefers and stays with alertness sees that > > > > alertness as its own nature. Nothing mysterious > > > > in that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, Pete, > > > > > > Verbal thought almost constantly is claiming something like " I am > > > great, I am stupid, this is my wife, this is my house, these are my > > > ideas, my creations, my children etc etc " . > > > > > > And it also claims to be the doer like " I have build my house, I have > > > made an invention, I have done this and I havee done that " . > > > > > > But surely, and here you definitely are right, all those claims in no > > > way realiter and factually are done by thought. They are the result > > > of inside and outside influences (called fate) the body met and still > > > is meeting. > > > > > > When mentioning or speaking of thought I always meant verbal thought > > > and not subconscious and unconscious thought. > > > > > > And one cannot deny that verbal thought in some way is just arrogant > > > when claiming its posessions and creations. > > > > > > Verbal thought is created by the brain to eventually get > > > communicated. It is a social function. > > > > > > Werner > > > > P: What I'm trying to convey to you. It's that > > thought,verbal or not it's a dead thing that > > can't claim anything. It's the brain that uses > > verbal thought to communicate. Just like your > > hand doesn't decide to move, but it's your > > brain which moves it. So when we speak of > > thought as if it were conscious of itself, > > we're creating confusion for ourselves, and > > others. Werner is not a thought, Werner is > > a brain: A wet, wrinkled, slimy mass of neurons > > representing themselves as a German artist and > > philosophy aficionado. > > > > PS. notice I snipped the other stuff because > > the posts are getting too long. > > > > > > > > ...as Pete may or may not be a white-haired Cuban story-teller & > poet...often seen to be carrying a rather large Zen stick, whacking > imaginary Werner's and Anna's in their wet, wrinkled, slimy mass of > neurons... > > Hug. > > ~A happy new year's... whatever... ya' bunch of filthy animals! from one to some others, :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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