Fwd: A few thoughts...

January 23, 2009

, " Tony OClery " <aoclery

wrote:

, " Peter " <not_2@> wrote:

>

> Dear All,

>

> A few thoughts...

>

> Ajatavada is the theory (vada) that everything is unborn (aja) -

i.e. the

> highest truth is that all manifestation, though it appears to come

into

> being as individual entities, is really the One unborn and

changeless

> Brahman. As Gaudapada - famous for the assertion of ajatavada -

states in

> his Mandukya Karika 3.2:

>

> " Therefore I will tell that which is not

> pitiable, which is without birth and uniform.

> [so that one understands]: nothing is born,

> even while things are born all around. " [3.2]

>

> It is the denial of the difference between cause (a creator) and

effect (the

> world) and is the assertion that what appears as the variety of

independent

> beings which are born and die is in fact all along the unborn Self,

Brahman.

>

> Sri Ramana has stated the two paths to Realisation - namely Self-

inquiry and

> Surrender. We may sense how Surrender to the Higher Power is fully

in

> accord with Ramana's views on ajatavada in his second mangalam of

Forty

> Verses on Realit. Sri Ramana puts it as follows:

>

> " Men of pure minds who intensely fear death surrender

> themselves unto the Lord of all, the Blissfull One,

> the indwelling Self, who has no death nor birth.

> By that (surrender) their ego, along with their attachments,

> becomes extinguished. How can they, who (thus) have won abode

> in Immortality, have any thought of death? "

> (Lakshmana Sarma's translation)

>

> David Godman sheds some valuable light on Ajatavada as found in Sri

Ramana's

> teachings:

>

> " 1. Ajata vada (the theory of non-causality). This is an ancient

Hindu

> doctrine which states that the creation of the world never happened

at all.

> It is a complete denial of all causality in the physical world. Sri

Ramana

> endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's experience that

nothing

> ever comes into existence or ceases to be because the Self alone

exists as

> the sole unchanging reality. It is a corollary of this theory that

time,

> space, cause and effect, essential components of all creation

theories,

> exist only in the minds of ajnanis and that the experience of the

Self

> reveals their non-existence. 260

>

> " This theory is not a denial of the reality of the world, only of

the

> creative process which brought it into existence. Speaking from his

own

> experience Sri Ramana said that the jnani is aware that the world

is real,

> not as an assemblage of interacting matter and energy, but as an

uncaused

> appearance in the Self. He enlarged on this by saying that because

the real

> nature or substratum of this appearance is identical with the

beingness of

> the Self, it necessarily partakes of its reality. That is to say,

the world

> is not real to the jnani simply because it appears, but only

because the

> real nature of the appearance is inseparable from the Self.

>

> " The ajnani, on the other hand, is totally unaware of the unitary

nature and

> source of the world and, as a consequence, his mind constructs an

illusory

> world of separate interacting objects by persistently

misinterpreting the

> senseimpressions it receives. Sri Ramana pointed out that this view

of the

> world has no more reality than a dream since it superimposes a

creation of

> the mind on the reality of the Self. He summarised the difference

between

> the jnani's and the ajnani's standpoint by saying that the world is

unreal

> if it is perceived by the mind as a collection of discrete objects

and real

> when it is directly experienced as an appearance in the Self. "

>

> ( " Be As You Are: the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi " , p259, by

David

> Godman)

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Peter

Namaste Peter,

That is a very good piece, however it doesn't reveal the full truth

of Ramana's statements. For Ramana talked mostly of the 'Self' or

Siva.Sakti.but that is talking of the concept of SaGuna Brahman which

in itself is unreal and never happened. David Godman doesn't venture

far beyond the Bhakta either and he really doesn't go much further

than that.

Anything that can make one feel, or feel good is unreal. Even the

appearance never happened, which of course nullifies the concept of

Saguna as how could there be two forms of Brahman.

Logically Einstein says there is no time, time itself is an illusion,

it is relative..So how could things be forming and changing if there

is no time? I know Sankara goes as far as 'the appearance' but this

may be due to his audience---same thing for Ramana. Sankara mostly

stopped at Advaita which is essentially Saguna/Self so did Ramana.

Because the concept of Ajativada or ParaAdvaita assaulted people's

minds and denied their senses.

Even the Advaitins are attached to their ideas. I was actually banned

from writing on the Advaitin group, for a while, as I said that

the 'Brahman' of Pralaya was the Saguna concept not the NirGuna

concept. Why did I say that? Because NirGuna cannot contain

potentiality and future karmas that's why--so pralaya is part of

illusion. If you add it all up there is no way it could have

happened.............

Ramana talked to the minds in front of him, and to talk of para-

advaita would destroy some of the people's minds, as they are needy

of devotion to something.

I use Bhajans and mantras as well, but mainly to remind me.

2...How did we get like this?

Well even the savage in the jungle has the witch doctor or shaman to

manipulate him. How did that happen? Well there is no need for

animals to rise up to be human, even if some do.

It is not about ascents it is about descents. Millions of years ago

if you read the Bible-Genesis or the Bhagavata Purana, they talk of

descents...Bhagavata talks of perhaps three different descents. The

first descent failed as the astrals in human form, were using the

contrasts in meditation to 'realise' themselves...so another group

descended from the astral plane around the orion and sirius systems.

This group mated defences and ate of the land...However some millions

of years before these contrived rescue descents, there had been other

descents that had mixed up animals and beings in all shapes and sizes

other than hominid....Some of the newer descents retained the ability

to move between planes at will. So here we have the example of moving

out of the body,,,,and the beginnings of worshipping so

called 'Divine Beings' or Devas..the germinating seeds of religion so

to speak...These are narrated in many scriptures, Bible, Koran,

Puranas, Ramayana etc---it is a good as an explanation as any. And if

you believe it or not---it shows anything is possible within the

illusion...nothing is impossible as it ultimately never happend even

if one gives it some temporary validity for arguments sake....

Hanuman was one of the most famous...mixture types and the dasa

avataras refer to the idea as well....

AS UG Krishnamurthi said we are just squatters in the body....Cheers

Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

January 23, 2009

, " Tony OClery " <aoclery

wrote:

, " Satish Vijayan "

<satishvijayan@> wrote:

>

> Peter,

>

> Thanks for posting that fascinating discourse on Ajatvada. Its a

true

> elaboration on the statement " nothing ever happened " .

>

> Tony, I couldn't grasp why you felt the above discourse was

incomplete

> in any way. The Ajathavada seems to imply that every activity or

form -

> past or future is an illusion. Everything is the 'self'. I'd call

the

> self the 'nirgun brahman'.

>

> I also don't 'get' the reference to ascents and descents. It seems

like

> we may be putting to fine a point on things here.

>

> Rgds

> , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@>

> wrote:

Namaste,Satish,

The Self cannot be NirGuna as that is a contradiction in terms, as

Self indicates Being and NirGuna by definition indicates Non-Being.

Pointing out illusion and confusion is hardly a fine point for

without knowing one is stuck in illusion and delusion.....

The reason I quoted-sort of, the scriptures with ascents descents is

that is my explanation for our condition and the need to worship

concept..........The astrals who could move between planes were

worshipped by those that were stuck in material. This is how the

worship of inter-dimensionals, spirits, devas came about..it was only

a short leap to creat a master spirit or 'God' that was ruling from

his heaven.......Does the gorilla need God? No! then why do we?

Does a child need devas and 'God' No! then instead of teaching the

child our rubbish we should learn from the childs, innocence,

surrender and living in the now..

'Suffer little children and come to me'.Jesus....Ramana avers to

being like a child in many of his gems, indicating that realisation

is like being a child.......Also because of the depopulation of the

planet circa 10K BC we have the genetic constructs and moulding of

all living mixtures and humans into what we call 'human' today with

all the attendent karmas and animal samskaras and attributes...

This is my explanation within illusion, where anything is possible,

as thought is unlimited, for our condition: And I'm attempting to

show how the reason for spiritual teaching, to explain this, has been

usurped into religions and philosophies, which in the main are

egotistical rubbish, manipulative and binding....In fact anything

other than what the child knows is essentially crap........Cheers

--- End forwarded message ---

January 23, 2009

advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery

wrote:

, " Tony OClery " <aoclery@>