Guest guest Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Want to know what you are? You're sensational. There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the parade of mental events, and of course, the urge to control those sensations. Without the urge to control, there is no suffering. Without the wish that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of sensations are codependent, and no one goes home when the parade ends. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > when the parade ends. > > Pete > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > when the parade ends. > > > > Pete > > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > Werner > Sheesh Werener, when I read Pete's quite poetic musing, I thought how wonderful that he thought of me. ;-) ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > > when the parade ends. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > > > Werner > > > > > Sheesh Werener, when I read Pete's quite poetic musing, I thought > how wonderful that he thought of me. > > ;-) > > ~A > Dear poeta Anna, It is not the first time that some person is comparing a dog with a cat and condemning the dog for not purring. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 this story about "sensations reflected in consciousness" ending with "realize that consciousness" is a thriller. who is the hero of this story, is it "I" without which the consciouness would'nt have been there. then there is nothing to realize because "I"am the hero. -mahesh Werner Woehr <wwoehrNisargadatta Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:49:45 AM Re: You Are Sensational! Nisargadatta, "cerosoul" <pedsie6 > wrote:>> Want to know what you are? You're sensational.> There is no other "I", apart from the sensations> reflected in consciousness. The "I" is an attachment> to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the> parade of mental events, and of course, the urge> to control those sensations. Without the urge to> control, there is no suffering. Without the wish> that such parade never ends, there is no suffering.> > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of> sensations are codependent, and no one goes home> when the parade ends.> > Pete>The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position.Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control.What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort.And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort.Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination.Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Nisargadatta , Mahesh Kamat <mv.kamat wrote: > > this story about " sensations reflected in consciousness " ending with " realize that consciousness " is a thriller. who is the hero of this story, is it " I " without which the consciouness would'nt have been there. then there is nothing to realize because " I " am the hero. > -mahesh > Mahesh, There is no hero of consciousness. There is just thought commenting consciousness like " I see that wonderful tree " . And the way thought is commenting consciousness looks like as thought is the owner of consciousness or its boss. And so there also exists no " I " without, as you seem to believe, consciousness wouldn't exist. But, because consciousness is totally subjective it is in some way justified to say that consciousness is you. BTW: Why do you still receive individual mails from ? Why don't you just edit your membership and check the " Web only Delivery " ? It would be much more conveniant for you and for other members no longer have to stumble through the way your word processor is formatting texts. Werner > > > ________________________________ > Werner Woehr <wwoehr > Nisargadatta > Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:49:45 AM > Re: You Are Sensational! > > > Nisargadatta, " cerosoul " <pedsie6@ > wrote: > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > when the parade ends. > > > > Pete > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > Werner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > when the parade ends. > > > > Pete > > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > Werner P: Well, Werner, what you wrote above is correct. The innate avoiding of hurt that is triggered by pain is the root of the control urge. But then, this urge gets transfered to the search for pleasant, and exciting sensations, and this creates a background feeling of dissatisfaction which is dukkha. The mind can be trained to tolerate lack of pleasure, boredom, and even pain without feeling the urge to escape. In this respect, animals seem wiser that we are. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > > when the parade ends. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > > > Werner > > P: Well, Werner, what you wrote above is > correct. The innate avoiding of hurt that > is triggered by pain is the root of the > control urge. But then, this urge gets transfered > to the search for pleasant, and exciting sensations, > and this creates a background feeling of > dissatisfaction which is dukkha. The mind can be > trained to tolerate lack of pleasure, boredom, > and even pain without feeling the urge to escape. > > In this respect, animals seem wiser that we are. > > > Yes Pete, a new topic, the well known pleasure/pain brother and sister. It would be nice to convince our gratification center (Nucleus accumbens) to listen to wisdom and to give up its function. But will wisdom be able to erase that part of the brain ? No more drink, no more smoke, no more drugs, no more writing prose or poems, no more painting, listening to music, no more watching movies etc ... ? I just before was reading that seeing others suffering or in trouble also is stimulating the gratification center. You see, there is much more involved than just to change it by some simple formula. I myself have no answer and I don't know any shortcut but obviously the gratification center of animals is differently functioning than that of humans. Next time when listening to music just ask your dog or cat to join and to enjoy and to share that pleasure together with you Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nice posts! Reductionism leaves many things unexplained. There is also the sphere of the symbolic. All your somatic parameters might work perfectly, and despite it you might feel so sad and depressed like nobody else in the world. Others having end-stage cancer might appear to you as the happiest persons in the world. Our interactions are important. The context in which we live is important, too. We are social animals able to communicate, to transmit concepts (imaginary sphere). We depend on others (other brains). No human being is an island. Sadness, suffering is also a product of our interactions we others. The same applies to happiness. There is thus the realm of the Symbolic and the Imaginary. A world built by language. Here we find the tiger we have to hunt down. We find aggression and love in the realm of the Imaginary. Desire, anxiety and so on (Pete gives an excellent explanation on anxiety) is imaginary. The realm of the symbolic and imaginary is like a movie. We can't escape the " social " . We hurt each other too often, but happiness and freedom can only be experienced " with others " . We mirror ourselves in others. What are we doing here, in this list, if not interaction, showing who and what we are, what we think and what we dream of. Ricardo Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Want to know what you are? You're sensational. > > > > There is no other " I " , apart from the sensations > > > > reflected in consciousness. The " I " is an attachment > > > > to sense, to feel, to think. The me is the watching of the > > > > parade of mental events, and of course, the urge > > > > to control those sensations. Without the urge to > > > > control, there is no suffering. Without the wish > > > > that such parade never ends, there is no suffering. > > > > > > > > Realize, realize that consciousness, and the parade of > > > > sensations are codependent, and no one goes home > > > > when the parade ends. > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > > > > > The urge to control already is starting intrauterinely when the fetus is learning to bring its limbs into a more comfortable position or to kick the mother to change her discomforting position. > > > > > > Pain and its avoidance is the original trigger of control. > > > > > > What is called the 'controller' is just the collection of learned activities and reactions through all one's life to avoid pain and discomfort. > > > > > > And there is nothing wrong with controlling and to react to pain and discomfort. > > > > > > Mental or psychological suffering starts when the control no longer is a direct reaction to actual unpleasant events but is just a story in fantasy, a mental creation of imagination. > > > > > > Werner > > > > P: Well, Werner, what you wrote above is > > correct. The innate avoiding of hurt that > > is triggered by pain is the root of the > > control urge. But then, this urge gets transfered > > to the search for pleasant, and exciting sensations, > > and this creates a background feeling of > > dissatisfaction which is dukkha. The mind can be > > trained to tolerate lack of pleasure, boredom, > > and even pain without feeling the urge to escape. > > > > In this respect, animals seem wiser that we are. > > > > > > > Yes Pete, a new topic, the well known pleasure/pain brother and sister. > > It would be nice to convince our gratification center (Nucleus accumbens) to listen to wisdom and to give up its function. > > But will wisdom be able to erase that part of the brain ? No more drink, no more smoke, no more drugs, no more writing prose or poems, no more painting, listening to music, no more watching movies etc ... ? > > I just before was reading that seeing others suffering or in trouble also is stimulating the gratification center. > > You see, there is much more involved than just to change it by some simple formula. > > I myself have no answer and I don't know any shortcut but obviously the gratification center of animals is differently functioning than that of humans. > > Next time when listening to music just ask your dog or cat to join and to enjoy and to share that pleasure together with you > > Werner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 > > Yes Pete, a new topic, the well known pleasure/pain brother and sister. > > > > It would be nice to convince our gratification center (Nucleus accumbens) to listen to wisdom and to give up its function. > > > > But will wisdom be able to erase that part of the brain ? No more drink, no more smoke, no more drugs, no more writing prose or poems, no more painting, listening to music, no more watching movies etc ... ? > > > > I just before was reading that seeing others suffering or in trouble also is stimulating the gratification center. > > > > You see, there is much more involved than just to change it by some simple formula. > > > > I myself have no answer and I don't know any shortcut but obviously the gratification center of animals is differently functioning than that of humans. > > > > Next time when listening to music just ask your dog or cat to join and to enjoy and to share that pleasure together with you > > > > Werner Hi Werner, P: You misunderstood, again. If you read what I wrote a little more carefully, you'd see that I was not attacking pleasure, or recommending that people find a way not to feel it. I was just pointing out that our gluttony for pleasant, and exciting sensations becomes a source of dukkha. If someone is a glutton, if the urge to eat is out of control, the doctor doesn't recommend starvation, but understanding the causes of gluttony and bringing them under control. This constant urge for gratification, probably, doesn't reside in the gratification center, but in the cognitive center. The cognitive center is easier to modify that others more primitive centers. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy wrote: > > Nice posts! Reductionism leaves many things unexplained. There is also the sphere of the symbolic. All your somatic parameters might work perfectly, and despite it you might feel so sad and depressed like nobody else in the world. > Others having end-stage cancer might appear to you as the happiest persons in the world. Our interactions are important. The context in which we live is important, too. We are social animals able to communicate, to transmit concepts (imaginary sphere). We depend on others (other brains). No human being is an island. Sadness, suffering is also a product of our interactions we others. The same applies to happiness. > There is thus the realm of the Symbolic and the Imaginary. A world built by language. Here we find the tiger we have to hunt down. We find aggression and love in the realm of the Imaginary. Desire, anxiety and so on (Pete gives an excellent explanation on anxiety) is imaginary. The realm of the symbolic and imaginary is like a movie. > We can't escape the " social " . We hurt each other too often, but happiness and freedom can only be experienced " with others " . We mirror ourselves in others. > What are we doing here, in this list, if not interaction, showing who and what we are, what we think and what we dream of. > > Ricardo > > > look like you need to listen some more of this your Pearl Jam.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.