Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - geo Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:31 PM Re: Re: no pattern > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would > say). > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > subject....from here.... tim:Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we be an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary thought. geo> Then I must ask: what or where is the source of the energy that insists (and very convincingly at that for the vaaaast majority of humanity) in making human beings feel as separate entities? Answer: consciousness. The ground, the ultimate is always alone, can not be one amongst many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - geo Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:45 PM Re: Re: no pattern - Tim G. Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:35 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would > > say). > > > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > > subject....from here.... > > tim:Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we > be > an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think > that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh > ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary > thought. > > geo> Then I must ask: what or where is the source of the energy that > insists > (and very convincingly at that for the vaaaast majority of humanity) > in making human beings feel as separate entities? Again, the illusion of " me " is created by " you " . The ego is a social phenomenon, and the illusion can be summed up: " I am what you see " . The truth can be summed up: " I am what *I* see " . geo> Ok, tim. I agree. It is so. In fact it is not unusual the face difficulties when trying to define the proper nomenclature for " consciousness " . Ther is no real need for it either... :>) But the thing is..if you say that the source of illusion is NOT in consciousness...then it could only issue from something other then consciusness...what would that be? Teh ultimate? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > But the thing is..if you say that the source of illusion is NOT in > consciousness... The origin of the illusion is not in consciousness, but the source of it is. It's in thought, actually... what we refer to as the subconscious mind. > then > it could only issue from something other then consciusness...what > would that > be? > Teh ultimate? The subconscious. That which we are not conscious or aware of. Our mechanical thought and behavior patterns, our vasanas (habitual tendencies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:03 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > But the thing is..if you say that the source of illusion is NOT in > consciousness... The origin of the illusion is not in consciousness, but the source of it is. It's in thought, actually... what we refer to as the subconscious mind. > then > it could only issue from something other then consciusness...what > would that > be? > Teh ultimate? The subconscious. That which we are not conscious or aware of. Our mechanical thought and behavior patterns, our vasanas (habitual tendencies). geo> And the subconscious is not part of consciousness? If we stick to Nis. nomeclature - it certainly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > geo> And the subconscious is not part of consciousness? > If we stick to Nis. nomeclature - it certainly is. OK, if we stick to Nis. nomenclature, it is. If we stick to the way things are seen here... if one isn't conscious of something, it ain't in consciousness, at least for all practical purposes. Why do ya think they call it " waking up " , anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it > not the > > > > sense of being one amongst many? > > > > > > If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. > > > > > > Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > > > > > > > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > > > > illusion. A > > > > univesal impersonal river of illusion. > > > > > > The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. > > > > > > This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go within? > > Yes... be alone, totally independent, detached from the objective, immersed in yourself. Rest in yourself, in your own Being, instead of being dependent on 'others' as a flimsy house of cards. > The only benefit of going within it the apperception that there isn't one. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:35 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > cerosoul > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the > > > > body > > > > kicks... > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > > > toombaru > > > > I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) > > -geo- > > > > It is there in the same sense that a dream is there. > > toombaru > > Are you saying that the dream of separateness is a dream as the human world? > Lets put it this way: when one dies, the world is gone. But the center may > go before... > It is not the same kind of dream. > -geo- > It is possible to be centered and know that the center is everywhere. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - Tim G. Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:21 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > geo> And the subconscious is not part of consciousness? > If we stick to Nis. nomeclature - it certainly is. OK, if we stick to Nis. nomenclature, it is. If we stick to the way things are seen here... if one isn't conscious of something, it ain't in consciousness, at least for all practical purposes. Why do ya think they call it " waking up " , anyway? geo> Waking up from normal usual night sleep? Or the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:49 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:35 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > cerosoul > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the > > > > body > > > > kicks... > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > > > toombaru > > > > I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) > > -geo- > > > > It is there in the same sense that a dream is there. > > toombaru > > Are you saying that the dream of separateness is a dream as the human > world? > Lets put it this way: when one dies, the world is gone. But the center may > go before... > It is not the same kind of dream. > -geo- > It is possible to be centered and know that the center is everywhere. toombaru geo> Yes. Is the same kind of dream? The same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Tim G. > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:21 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > geo> And the subconscious is not part of consciousness? > > If we stick to Nis. nomeclature - it certainly is. > > OK, if we stick to Nis. nomenclature, it is. If we stick to the way things > are seen here... if one isn't conscious of something, it ain't in > consciousness, at least for all practical purposes. Why do ya think they > call it " waking up " , anyway? > > geo> Waking up from normal usual night sleep? Or the other? > The self cannot awaken. The self IS the dream. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:49 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:35 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM > > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > cerosoul > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the > > > > > body > > > > > kicks... > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) > > > -geo- > > > > > > > It is there in the same sense that a dream is there. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you saying that the dream of separateness is a dream as the human > > world? > > Lets put it this way: when one dies, the world is gone. But the center may > > go before... > > It is not the same kind of dream. > > -geo- > > > > It is possible to be centered and know that the center is everywhere. > > toombaru > > geo> Yes. Is the same kind of dream? The same? > Sages use the term " dream " to speak of the conceptual overlay simply because it is as close as a word can come in the attempt of the illusory self to describe its own non-reality. Sages.....as you said in one of your posts.....have a foot in both worlds. One world is closed....the other open. And the attempt to describe that has to come from the closed part. LOL toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > There is no pattern > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > Bill > > P: Those who don't understand that > existence itself is a pattern, don't > understand, period. Manifestation > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > Pete Yes. And pattern is the contrast between what is included in the pattern, and what isn't included ( " chaos " as you term it). And the boundary of inclusion/exclusion is only as real as the tension one is able to maintain regarding including and excluding. So-called human life. Thus, the teaching was offered: " Life is suffering. And there is freedom from suffering. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > cerosoul > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > no pattern > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > There is no pattern > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > Bill > > P: Those who don't understand that > existence itself is a pattern, don't > understand, period. Manifestation > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > Pete > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > kicks... > -geo- .... or this very moment ... (whichever you understand to be " right now " ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > Yes. > > And pattern is the contrast between what is included in the pattern, and what isn't included ( " chaos " as you term it). > > And the boundary of inclusion/exclusion is only as real as the tension one is able to maintain regarding including and excluding. > > So-called human life. > > Thus, the teaching was offered: " Life is suffering. And there is freedom from suffering. " > A Beautiful glimpse of the Emptiness. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. > > > > And pattern is the contrast between what is included in the pattern, and what isn't included ( " chaos " as you term it). > > > > And the boundary of inclusion/exclusion is only as real as the tension one is able to maintain regarding including and excluding. > > > > So-called human life. > > > > Thus, the teaching was offered: " Life is suffering. And there is freedom from suffering. " > > > > > > A Beautiful glimpse of the Emptiness. > > > > toombaru > Emptiness falling into edgelessness. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > kicks... > > -geo- > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > toombaru > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > -geo- How firmly can the pattern be held this moment? Or is it, in fact, fluctuating, changing? It's impossible to hold it without any fluctuating whatsoever, neh? What is " so " now, this instant, this gap of no-time, without any attachment to the pattern as something, as someone, as a life experience ... a pause to think about it ... and the holding of the pattern is taking place a feeling reaction about it ... and the holding of the pattern is taking place but right now ... where is the pattern? oh, I have a brain, I sense ... and this instant, of no-time, sense hasn't registered, time hasn't formulated, thought hasn't occurred ... my brain, my brain! eeeeeyahhhh! my senses! yarggghhh ... Ha, ha, haaaaaaa .... I capitulate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > > > kicks... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > toombaru > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > -geo- > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > toombaru > > I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) > -geo- The world is on fire. Pictures appear in the fire. Flickering. The fire is the flickering. I am the world. Burning. No shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > geo> And the subconscious is not part of consciousness? > > If we stick to Nis. nomeclature - it certainly is. > > OK, if we stick to Nis. nomenclature, it is. If we stick to the way things are seen here... if one isn't conscious of something, it ain't in consciousness, at least for all practical purposes. Why do ya think they call it " waking up " , anyway? A cold splash of water in the face! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:36 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > cerosoul > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > no pattern > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > There is no pattern > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > Bill > > P: Those who don't understand that > existence itself is a pattern, don't > understand, period. Manifestation > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > Pete > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the body > kicks... > -geo- .... or this very moment ... (whichever you understand to be " right now " ) geo> Well...then what is the difference between dissolving right now and the organism dying? None?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:38 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > understand, period. Manifestation > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > Pete > > Yes. > > And pattern is the contrast between what is included in the pattern, and > what isn't included ( " chaos " as you term it). > > And the boundary of inclusion/exclusion is only as real as the tension one > is able to maintain regarding including and excluding. > > So-called human life. > > Thus, the teaching was offered: " Life is suffering. And there is freedom > from suffering. " > A Beautiful glimpse of the Emptiness. toombaru What bothers me here is that now I count three: Consciousness, pattern and chaos. But there is the gound yet. The ultimate. It is beyond all that... -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain > The self cannot awaken. > > The self IS the dream. > > > > toombaru Yes. And the self can't step out of the dream to compare it to some other reality. So: self, reality, dream, illusion, falling asleep, waking up = the same nonsense. Non. Sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > geo> Only being nothing, consciousness is fully seen. Consciousness > > is > > collective - many beings share it > > There are not many beings. There is only Being, which is one. > > > insofar they feel as separate inner entities looking at an outside > > separate > > world - that what consciousness is. > > Insofar as they feel separate, they are still not separate. They feel separate because of an early mechanism in which the " me " is created by inferring " you " -- then this " me " (which is taken to be the body) is also taken to be subjective. > > Except the body is an object. We can witness it. Therefore, it's not the Subject, but an object. Clearly we are not objects. What are we?;-). we are objects. you are not clear on this that's all. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:48 PM Re: no pattern Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:40 PM > Re: no pattern > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM > > Re: no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:18 PM > > > no pattern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In NondualitySalon , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is no pattern > > > > that applies in the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > To understand this is not a knowledge, > > > > but a freedom from knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > P: Those who don't understand that > > > existence itself is a pattern, don't > > > understand, period. Manifestation > > > is itself pattern. Consciousness is > > > the contrast between chaos and pattern. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Yes. The human world is a pattern that will dissolve only when the > > > body > > > kicks... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Or sometimes............before. > > > > toombaru > > > > How? Our senses are human senses. Our brain is also human. > > -geo- > > > > There is a way to live outside of that. > > toombaru > > I agree. But the human world is still there. (...or not? hmmmm...) > -geo- The world is on fire. Pictures appear in the fire. Flickering. The fire is the flickering. I am the world. Burning. No shit. geo> All that rests on the ground of all. Who am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > geo> I see all that you are saying. But what is consciousness? Is it > not the > > sense of being one amongst many? > > If that's how you define the word. From here, the sense of being one amongst many is not inherent in consciousness. > > Or, if you like, there's consciousness and then there's awareness (this is how Nisargadatta defined things). According to him we can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of being aware. > > > Consciousness is a " something " and it is " real " as a river of > > illusion. A > > univesal impersonal river of illusion. > > The notion of " universal consciousness " probably feels impersonal because it's inferred. This inferred impersonality is what creates the notion of individuality being personal. > > This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). fuck what nisargadatta said. be a man! it's the only path. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > tim: This train of thought could go on forever, and it's more or less > > pointless. To find out what we are, we need to drop all notions of > > collectivity and go within (stay with the " I AM " , as Nisargatta would say). > > > > geo> Of course. But understanding consciousness is an interesting > > subject....from here.... > > Well, I don't see anything inherent in consciousness that insists we be an object among objects. In fact, when I think of the body and then think that's what I am, I'm identifying with a thought, which is well nigh ridiculous. I cannot " be " something I think of, cannot be a momentary thought. that thought is deluded. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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