Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. With image he meant the image one has of oneself. But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right to touch it. Only arrogant fools who think they are God will try that. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right to touch it. > > Only arrogant fools who think they are God will try that. > > Werner what about trying to wake God up? is that alright mr. un-arrogant? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right to touch it. > > > > Only arrogant fools who think they are God will try that. > > > > Werner > > > what about trying to wake God up? > > is that alright mr. un-arrogant? > > .b b.b. > Shut up, loud-mouth, and return to your rock and catch flies. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right to touch it. > > > > > > Only arrogant fools who think they are God will try that. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > what about trying to wake God up? > > > > is that alright mr. un-arrogant? > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > Shut up, loud-mouth, and return to your rock and catch flies. > > Werner you can hear these posts? wernie you have fantastic ears. you say you have bad eyes. then that picture on your profile.. you're looking straight into the camera? you're not looking up at the computer screen? where are your glasses? i mean if you're trying to look at the camera straight on.. and it looks like you're looking up.. at your own picture on the screen.. then i can understand it's because of you're cockeyed. but if it is you looking at yourself.. you're acting conceited. and you have nothing to be conceited about.. LOOK CLOSELY! yours from the rock: ..b b.b. p.s. try not to be so hurtful and arrogant from now on huh? or i'll have to go to the moderator in private about you. and ask everyone to join me. or maybe not. i don't want to be small like some people i've watched Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. Nobody actually can. What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have? With separation, comes a price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > Nobody actually can. > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? Werner > > With separation, comes a price. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > Werner You don't wanna know ;-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e > > > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > > > Werner > > You don't wanna know ;-). well your answering (in any way).. sort of tells him the answer to his question no? i mean the him that is thee etc. and so forth NOW. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e > > > > > > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > You don't wanna know ;-). > > > well your answering (in any way).. > > sort of tells him the answer to his question no? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > > > > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > > > > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > > > > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > > > > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > You don't wanna know ;-). > > > > > > well your answering (in any way).. > > > > sort of tells him the answer to his question no? > > No. oh? why not? pray tell us the " unanswer " . LOL! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have?e > > > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > > > Werner > > You don't wanna know ;-). > Surely, I wanna know (no smiley). So I repeat my question: Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim, or is it still just a concept you hope it might get real, together with all those promised marvels like bliss and eternal peace etc ? Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 - Werner Woehr Nisargadatta Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:09 AM Re: Insult Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only > > > > the image gets hurt. > > > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do > > > > happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological > > > > structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often > > > > and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in > > > > concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without > > > > having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an > > > > arrogant fool. > > > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool > > > > because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that > > > > this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a > > > > sleeping person'. > > > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > > > > > to touch it. > > > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no > > > other', what choice does one have?e > > > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim ? > > > > Werner > > You don't wanna know ;-). > Surely, I wanna know (no smiley). So I repeat my question: Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim, or is it still just a concept you hope it might get real, together with all those promised marvels like bliss and eternal peace etc ? Werner No....you really dont want to know. Werner, there is only one movement as-this. No other. There is nothing apart from you. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Surely, I wanna know (no smiley). > > So I repeat my question: > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim, or is it still just a > concept you hope it might get real, together with all those promised > marvels like bliss and eternal peace etc ? You have 'arrived', having never left. It's clear you can 'be' my self, from this text, so I can trust you, that you are telling the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Surely, I wanna know (no smiley). > > > > So I repeat my question: > > > > Have you arrived at 'total aloneness', Tim, or is it still just a > > concept you hope it might get real, together with all those promised > marvels like bliss and eternal peace etc ? > > You have 'arrived', having never left. It's clear you can 'be' my self, from this text, so I can trust you, that you are telling the truth. trust is not having to trust. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > Nobody actually can. > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have? > > With separation, comes a price. > And, as you/I Know, loneliness Is the illusion of self/other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Nisargadatta , " skywhilds " <skywords wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Krishnamurti again and again explained when there is hurt then only the image gets hurt. > > > > > > With image he meant the image one has of oneself. > > > > > > But the problem is that the self-image won't leave when hurts do happen. The self-image is firmly anchored in the psychological structure lifelong built arround the survival instinct. > > > > > > And this structure cannot get destroyed by hurt. No matter how often and heavily these hurts will happen either in the army or in concentration camps or in a forum like this one. > > > > > > A person who believes that in hurting he has found a tool, without having beeen asked, to destroy other peoples 'ego' is just an arrogant fool. > > > > > > Arrogant because he believes he got the right to do that and a fool because he is missing the intelligence and background to know that this will not work but must fail. > > > > > > An Indian maxim which is considered as a crime says 'Don't wake up a sleeping person'. > > > > > > To wake up, to lose one's ego, to realize one's self-image etc is > > > everyone's very private affair and no-one whatsoever got any right > to touch it. > > > > Nobody actually can. > > > > What gets 'touched', is what we allow to be 'touched'. > > > > When we think there are others, we are vulnerable to them. > > > > After all, 'other', like 'self', is within. > > > > But if one can't take the total aloneness involved in 'no self, and no other', what choice does one have? > > > > With separation, comes a price. > > > > > And, as you/I > > Know, loneliness > > Is the illusion of self/other not to worry. i'm with you never. LOL! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.