Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears to die. http://cerosoul.wordpress.com http://awakefiction.wordpress.com Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > to die. > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > Pete i'm afraid that's so. :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 - roberibus111 Nisargadatta Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM Re: When They Begin The Begin Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > to die. > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > Pete i'm afraid that's so. :-) ..b b.b. " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it is the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the primary subject. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > to die. > Very nice, Pete, Werner > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > to die. > > > > > Very nice, Pete, > > Werner That last sentence is a killer. ~A > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > Pete > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > roberibus111 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > to die. > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > Pete > > i'm afraid that's so. > > :-) > > .b b.b. > > " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it is > the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the primary > subject. > -geo- oh not even that. that's saying way too much. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > > to die. > > > > > > > > > Very nice, Pete, > > > > Werner > > > > That last sentence is a killer. > > ~A if there were anything ever born that would be true. ..b b.b. > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 - roberibus111 Nisargadatta Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:51 PM Re: When They Begin The Begin Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > roberibus111 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > to die. > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > Pete > > i'm afraid that's so. > > :-) > > .b b.b. > > " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it > is > the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the > primary > subject. > -geo- oh not even that. that's saying way too much. ..b b.b. And more then what was already too much was said on top. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > roberibus111 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:51 PM > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > roberibus111 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM > > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > > to die. > > > > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > i'm afraid that's so. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > > " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it > > is > > the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the > > primary > > subject. > > -geo- > > oh not even that. > > that's saying way too much. > > .b b.b. > > And more then what was already too much was said on top. > -geo- and you keep topping it up too. so do i. but i don't buy any of this bullshit anyway. how 'bout some whipped cream and a maraschino cherry.. with some chocolate sauce and crushed nuts. go ahead and make my day..say that's too much.. i'll keep it for myself then. :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 - roberibus111 Nisargadatta Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:28 PM Re: When They Begin The Begin Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > roberibus111 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:51 PM > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > roberibus111 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM > > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > > to die. > > > > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > i'm afraid that's so. > > > > :-) > > > > .b b.b. > > > > " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it > > is > > the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the > > primary > > subject. > > -geo- > > oh not even that. > > that's saying way too much. > > .b b.b. > > And more then what was already too much was said on top. > -geo- and you keep topping it up too. so do i. but i don't buy any of this bullshit anyway. how 'bout some whipped cream and a maraschino cherry.. with some chocolate sauce and crushed nuts. go ahead and make my day..say that's too much.. i'll keep it for myself then. :-) ..b b.b. What is it that you dont buy? The ground of all that has a beguining as beguiningless? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > roberibus111 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:28 PM > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > roberibus111 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:51 PM > > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > roberibus111 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:30 PM > > > Re: When They Begin The Begin > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > > > to die. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > i'm afraid that's so. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > " We " indeed beguin like that. But the beguining-less does not beguin, it > > > is > > > the ground of that which beguins. Ever and ever non-manifested, the > > > primary > > > subject. > > > -geo- > > > > oh not even that. > > > > that's saying way too much. > > > > .b b.b. > > > > And more then what was already too much was said on top. > > -geo- > > and you keep topping it up too. > > so do i. > > but i don't buy any of this bullshit anyway. > > how 'bout some whipped cream and a maraschino cherry.. > > with some chocolate sauce and crushed nuts. > > go ahead and make my day..say that's too much.. > > i'll keep it for myself then. > > :-) > > .b b.b. > > What is it that you dont buy? The ground of all that has a beguining as > beguiningless? > -geo- there is no one to buy anything in any or all cases. what difference what is bought or not bought by nobody? it's groundless to even speculate. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " houzland " <houzland@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " houzland " <houzland@> wrote: > > > > > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > > > GuruRatings , Pesi <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In the beginning there was sound, the sound of a mother's heart. > > > > > Then muffled and distant others sounds were heard. There was > > > > > no one hearing these sounds. They were just sounds sounding > > > > > somewhere, meaning nothing. A fetus' consciousness begins > > > > > with sensations, and urges to stretch limbs it doesn't know it has. > > > > > > > > > > At birth pain, and fear begins. A cataclysm, an earthquake, > > > > > a descent to hell begins as the fetus is expelled from paradise. > > > > > It all ends in an explosion of light, and the urge to breath. > > > > > Needs and sensations are born, but no one is there feeling these. > > > > > > > > > > Later, in months and years to come the self will be culturally > > > > > fabricated one ideational brick at the time . So, we all begin, > > > > > when they begin the begin. Sensations, emotions, ideas, > > > > > memories masquerading as a self that is not alive, but fears > > > > > to die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cerosoul.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > http://awakefiction.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > So very true, a person is programmed biological being. The ego comes from outside, and the infants starts to learn from its parents. The ego is taught and inculcated.The child moves from the third person to the first and so will now experience death unless enlightened...Cheers Tony, > > > > > > > > > > T:Nonsense! You are simply repeating the current psychological pap you have learned somewhere. > > > Tbone > > > > > Namaste,TB, > > > > Doesn't everybody learn something somewhere.? In this case I learned it within myself...........Tony 'O' > > > > T:Oh. So you already knew all about the inculcating of ego's when you were two? > > Gimme a break! > Tbone > Namaste, I was hazily aware of the time that I started to call myself by the name my parents had given me, (instead of referring to myself in the third person).................I was less than two.....And what does it matter at what age that 'one discovers the thief in the palace' like Emperor Parikshit.......Cheers Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So very true, a person is programmed biological being. The ego comes from outside, and the infants starts to learn from its parents. The ego is taught and inculcated.The child moves from the third person to the first and so will now experience death unless enlightened...Cheers Tony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T:Nonsense! You are simply repeating the current psychological pap you have learned somewhere. > > > > > > > Tbone > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste,TB, > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't everybody learn something somewhere.? In this case I learned it within myself...........Tony 'O' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T:Oh. So you already knew all about the inculcating of ego's when you were two? > > > > > > > > > > Gimme a break! > > > > > Tbone > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > I was hazily aware of the time that I started to call myself by the name my parents had given me, (instead of referring to myself in the third person).................I was less than two.....And what does it matter at what age that 'one discovers the thief in the palace' like Emperor Parikshit.......Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > T:What you make of it Tony has to do with what you have learned to make of it or been convinced to make of it. Fullstop. > > > > > > That you reckon it is the 'inculcation of an ego' is some psychological bullshit you have learned since and then turned around to claim that that is what happened. > > > > > > Freudian pseudopsychological explanatory nonesense. > > > You reckon it is a 'thief in the palace'? > > > Then I guess you are the on that has to live with it, not me thank Kerist. > > > > > > You're welcome to it. > > > > > > Tbone > > > > > Namaste TB, > > > > Nobody told me anything in particular...Observe a child yourself >and you will see they talk in the third person for the first early >years.. > > > Hi Tony, > > Have you ever taken a toddler to a grocery store, > > or....heaven forbid....a toy store? > > Ever deal with the tantrums in the 'terrible twos'? > > There's really not much anything " third person " about them. :-) > > Melody > Namaste, I'm very familiar with children having had quite a few, and a couple of marriages. Desire and ego are not always the same thing......a child can still desire in the third person...like a jackdaw will be attracted to shiny things. Two is about the time they start to use their own name about themselves anyway....Cheers Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > Nobody told me anything in particular...Observe a child yourself >and you will see they talk in the third person for the first early >years.. > > > > > > > > > Hi Tony, > > > > > > Have you ever taken a toddler to a grocery store, > > > > > > or....heaven forbid....a toy store? > > > > > > Ever deal with the tantrums in the 'terrible twos'? > > > > > > There's really not much anything " third person " about them. :-) > > > > > > Melody > > > > > Namaste, > > > > I'm very familiar with children having had quite a few, and a couple of marriages. Desire and ego are not always the same thing......a child can still desire in the third person...like a jackdaw will be attracted to shiny things. > > > > Maybe. > > But a 2yr old can certainly scream " MINE! " as > he cries and tries to yank a toy out of the hands > of a sibling. > > Wouldn't you think there would have to be a sense of 'me' > (distinct from you) before they would insist in such a > demonstrative and vocal way? > > How would your 'third person' theory account for that > kind of behavior? > > Melody Namaste, Depends on the age and development of the child, once they move from infant the ego starts to be reinforced by the culture and parents...'Mine' might mean ego or it may just be a programmed association...just as a jackdaw will fight another bird for its shiny posessions....When the child stop using their own name in the third person then the ego is being established..As I said the 'mine' of the child could still be desire without an ego.........Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So very true, a person is programmed biological being. The ego comes from outside, and the infants starts to learn from its parents. The ego is taught and inculcated.The child moves from the third person to the first and so will now experience death unless enlightened...Cheers Tony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T:Nonsense! You are simply repeating the current psychological pap you have learned somewhere. > > > > > > > Tbone > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste,TB, > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't everybody learn something somewhere.? In this case I learned it within myself...........Tony 'O' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T:Oh. So you already knew all about the inculcating of ego's when you were two? > > > > > > > > > > Gimme a break! > > > > > Tbone > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > I was hazily aware of the time that I started to call myself by the name my parents had given me, (instead of referring to myself in the third person).................I was less than two.....And what does it matter at what age that 'one discovers the thief in the palace' like Emperor Parikshit.......Cheers Tony. > > > > > > > > > > T:What you make of it Tony has to do with what you have learned to make of it or been convinced to make of it. Fullstop. > > > > > > That you reckon it is the 'inculcation of an ego' is some psychological bullshit you have learned since and then turned around to claim that that is what happened. > > > > > > Freudian pseudopsychological explanatory nonesense. > > > You reckon it is a 'thief in the palace'? > > > Then I guess you are the on that has to live with it, not me thank Kerist. > > > > > > You're welcome to it. > > > > > > Tbone > > > > > Namaste TB, > > > > Nobody told me anything in particular...Observe a child yourself and you will see they talk in the third person for the first early years...Well if you reverse that and try and imagine that you are actually everything instead of being particular you will notice the consciousness drawing back and there will also be slight visual differences. Who am I and I am that......Cheers Tony. > > > > T:Dear Tony, > You seem to have leaped tall buildings at a single bound here. > Are you meaning to imply that because a child talks in the third person and the first peron singular that they are inculcating thier egos? > > Such explanations are very satisfying in psychology where currently invented theories are applied retrospect and claimed to be statements of what exactly was happening back then. > Such notions are not only self generating but are also self fulfilling prophesies (like the notion of transference) and cannot be disproved because the are made up after the fact. > Tbone Namaste, The ego doesn't really exist at all, it is just a reaction defensive response mechanism that we have created a huge ghost out of. We and society programme and inculcate children from an early age, until they develop this distortion... Children raised by animals...wolves etc don't apparently have it...Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Benny " <yabahatum@> wrote: > > When a child is able to throw objects he is crossing a basic structure--the function of space-which later turns into the desire for ownership--the " mine " > > GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > I'm very familiar with children having had quite a few, and a couple of marriages. Desire and ego are not always the same thing......a child can still desire in the third person...like a jackdaw will be attracted to shiny things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe. > > > > > > > > But a 2yr old can certainly scream " MINE! " as > > > > he cries and tries to yank a toy out of the hands > > > > of a sibling. > > > > > > > > Wouldn't you think there would have to be a sense of 'me' > > > > (distinct from you) before they would insist in such a > > > > demonstrative and vocal way? > > > > > > > > How would your 'third person' theory account for that > > > > kind of behavior? > > > > > > > > Melody > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Depends on the age and development of the child, once they move from infant the ego starts to be reinforced by the culture and parents...'Mine' might mean ego or it may just be a programmed association...just as a jackdaw will fight another bird for its shiny posessions....When the child stop using their own name in the third person then the ego is being established..As I said the 'mine' of the child could still be desire without an ego.........Tony. > > > > > > > > > In order for a toddler's screaming, " Mine!! " to be meaningful > > in any way, (s)he would have to have enought of a sense of self > > established to differentiate 'me' from 'you'. > > > > If so, your definition of ego couldn't center around a sense > > of self as determined by the lens of an individual, separate > > entity, could it? > > > > IOW, the words " MINE " and the tug of war that may ensue after > > would not be uttered while experiencing the world thru the > > lens of nondual awareness, could it? > > > > Melody > > > Namaste, Apparently understanding what an ego is or isn't is the problem in this discussion...especially with regard to children. Every animal has a reaction defense response but humans expand and extrapolate it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > > What I'm questioning is this assumption that when a life > > > form has no strongly developed ego their awareness is nondual. > > > > > > My cats show me everyday that they experience the world in > > > a very 'dual' way. They demonstrate jealousy and they compete > > > for attention in a way that demonstrates a highly developed > > > sense of who and what is 'not me'. > > > > > > Melody > > > > > Namaste Melody, > > > > I have covered this area...non ego doesn't mean non dual...there is still the basic reaction defensive response..> > > > > Rather than simply accept what someone > says as 'the way it is', I prefer to > test those assertions with observation > and experience, which I'm attempting > to do thru dialogue with you. > > I am glad to hear your clarification above > that you aren't saying that children who > haven't developed the illusionary ego structure > experience life nondually. > > You *have* suggested in the past that nondual awareness > is what remains once the entity has undergone > ego death. > > > If, then, one doesn't necessarily experience > life from a nondual perspective before a strongly > defended illusionary ego structure has been formed, > > why would one assume that nondual awareness would > follow the death of the illusionary ego structure? > > > Would amnesia qualify as a kind of 'ego death', and if > so, do people who wake up with no memory of their past > see the world nondually? Their sense of 'who I am' his 'died'...along with all memory and associated > responses with their environment. > > These are just questions, Tony. > > Questions that answers like " that's just basic defensive > responses " don't address. > > My cats have highly developed personalities, strong > preferences, dislikes and attachments - all of which > influence their behavior in a very predictable (and > often entertaining) way. Would you say they have an ego? > > " Basic defensive (survivalistic) responses " don't explain > their behavior. Nor would the explanation " ego behavior " . > Nor would 'nondual awareness'. > > Melody > Namaste, A child doesn't have an ego death as it hasn't fully developed, they are unconditioned and therefore use the animal response mechanism. That doesn't mean a state of non duality.....Your cats do not have an ego as they only have a vijnanamayakosa in potentiality...they use the reaction response mechanism somewhat like a baby sucking milk but doesn't remember... --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > > > I am glad to hear your clarification above > > > that you aren't saying that children who > > > haven't developed the illusionary ego structure > > > experience life nondually. > > > > > > You *have* suggested in the past that nondual awareness > > > is what remains once the entity has undergone > > > ego death. > > > > > > > > > If, then, one doesn't necessarily experience > > > life from a nondual perspective before a strongly > > > defended illusionary ego structure has been formed, > > > > > > why would one assume that nondual awareness would > > > follow the death of the illusionary ego structure? > > > > > > > > > Would amnesia qualify as a kind of 'ego death', and if > > > so, do people who wake up with no memory of their past > > > see the world nondually? Their sense of 'who I am' his 'died'...along with all memory and associated > > > responses with their environment. > > > > > > These are just questions, Tony. > > > > > > Questions that answers like " that's just basic defensive > > > responses " don't address. > > > > > > My cats have highly developed personalities, strong > > > preferences, dislikes and attachments - all of which > > > influence their behavior in a very predictable (and > > > often entertaining) way. Would you say they have an ego? > > > > > > " Basic defensive (survivalistic) responses " don't explain > > > their behavior. Nor would the explanation " ego behavior " . > > > Nor would 'nondual awareness'. > > > > > > Melody > > > > > Namaste, > > > > A child doesn't have an ego death as it hasn't fully developed, they are unconditioned and therefore use the animal response mechanism. That doesn't mean a state of non duality.....Your cats do not have an ego as they only have a vijnanamayakosa in potentiality...they use the reaction response mechanism somewhat like a baby sucking milk but doesn't remember...> > > > > Using that explanation, then, it would seem > you would agree that 'ego death' would not > assure nondual awareness. (As in the example > of someone with complete amnesia). > > Ego death could mean (relying on your terms only) > that someone reverts to being guided solely by > " their reaction response mechanism " . > > And if so, based on observation, I would tend to > question that assertion as well. > > Such an explanation does not seem to account for > works born of imagination and creativity, for example. > > Some animals actually *make* tools, we've discovered. > To do so would seem to require not only a memory, but > an imagination. > > Melody > Namaste, There is no answer to all your questions, as they are based on the false premise of individuality in the first place. We are the consciousness not separate from it or the universal mind. The mind-imagination can produce anything it wants indefinately. Comas and amnesia and such things are just like sleep ----one wakes up just as ignorant. Ego death does assure non dual awareness...but ego is of the mind and there is the problem. However there is a progression upwards so to speak from reaction response defense mechanism to Ahamkara or Ego and then on to realisation.............Realising that we are the consciusness and not separate....Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > > > GuruRatings , " Melody " <melodyande@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am glad to hear your clarification above > > > > that you aren't saying that children who > > > > haven't developed the illusionary ego structure > > > > experience life nondually. > > > > > > > > You *have* suggested in the past that nondual awareness > > > > is what remains once the entity has undergone > > > > ego death. > > > > > > > > > > > > If, then, one doesn't necessarily experience > > > > life from a nondual perspective before a strongly > > > > defended illusionary ego structure has been formed, > > > > > > > > why would one assume that nondual awareness would > > > > follow the death of the illusionary ego structure? > > > > > > > > > > > > Would amnesia qualify as a kind of 'ego death', and if > > > > so, do people who wake up with no memory of their past > > > > see the world nondually? Their sense of 'who I am' his 'died'...along with all memory and associated > > > > responses with their environment. > > > > > > > > These are just questions, Tony. > > > > > > > > Questions that answers like " that's just basic defensive > > > > responses " don't address. > > > > > > > > My cats have highly developed personalities, strong > > > > preferences, dislikes and attachments - all of which > > > > influence their behavior in a very predictable (and > > > > often entertaining) way. Would you say they have an ego? > > > > > > > > " Basic defensive (survivalistic) responses " don't explain > > > > their behavior. Nor would the explanation " ego behavior " . > > > > Nor would 'nondual awareness'. > > > > > > > > Melody > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > A child doesn't have an ego death as it hasn't fully developed, they are unconditioned and therefore use the animal response mechanism. That doesn't mean a state of non duality.....Your cats do not have an ego as they only have a vijnanamayakosa in potentiality...they use the reaction response mechanism somewhat like a baby sucking milk but doesn't remember...> > > > > > > > > > Using that explanation, then, it would seem > > you would agree that 'ego death' would not > > assure nondual awareness. (As in the example > > of someone with complete amnesia). > > > > Ego death could mean (relying on your terms only) > > that someone reverts to being guided solely by > > " their reaction response mechanism " . > > > > And if so, based on observation, I would tend to > > question that assertion as well. > > > > Such an explanation does not seem to account for > > works born of imagination and creativity, for example. > > > > Some animals actually *make* tools, we've discovered. > > To do so would seem to require not only a memory, but > > an imagination. > > > > Melody > > > Namaste, > > There is no answer to all your questions, as they are based on the false premise of individuality in the first place. > > We are the consciousness not separate from it or the universal mind. The mind-imagination can produce anything it wants indefinately. Comas and amnesia and such things are just like sleep ----one wakes up just as ignorant. > Ego death does assure non dual awareness...but ego is of the mind and there is the problem. However there is a progression upwards so to speak from reaction response defense mechanism to Ahamkara or Ego and then on to realisation.............Realising that we are the consciusness and not separate....Tony. > Namaste Melody, To add.. The Universal sense of 'I am' is localised by a Jiva to a body it happens to be in, due to the distortion of the reaction defense response---hence the small I or 'ego'. For this distortion to occur the Vijnanamayakosa has to be present, and it is only potential in animals and undeveloped in children...I hope this explains the phantom ego---in other words the Vijnanamaykosa has to reject the small 'I' to eliminate the ego.........Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.