Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210 wrote: > > It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? > Well Darling, if you can feel it, you can call it anything you want to. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? > > > > > Well Darling, if you can feel it, you can call it anything you want to. > > ~A > Didn't your parents warn you about playing with fire? :-0 toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210 wrote: > > It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? > yes definetely... get your smokey on... smokey bear says only you can prevent the wildfires when they spill onto the discussion groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 - mister_benn210 Nisargadatta Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:04 PM The fire within It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? -mister- I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is not other then awareness. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 2/8/2009 16:36:00 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Hur " <hurg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > It occurred to me that the " fire within " is consciousness...becoming aware of that. Is it not so? > > > yes definetely... Definatetotetolootly ;-p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > not other then awareness. > -geo- Don't know. I really don't know what is going on here. But I have read in one of the books about Prana (lifeforce). When consciousness merges with Prana. Also, I have heard Nisargadatta say words like " that which makes consciousness possible " Also, " consciousness is awareness modified by mind " from another source. But I don't think there is any use struggling here with concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > not other then awareness. > -geo- Also have a read at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 - mister_benn210 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:33 PM Re: The fire within > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness > being > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in > fact, > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness > is > not other then awareness. > -geo- Also have a read at this. geo> I wrote that mister... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 http://now.ohah.net/setu/wiki?Osho%3AConsciousness_Witnessing_and_Awareness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210 wrote: > > > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > > not other then awareness. > > -geo- The feeling of being conscious of something, makes consciousenss an object. Saying there is a body-consciousness makes that an object (or an arising, if you prefer). Saying there is an " I am " involved with consciousness, makes " I am " an object (or arising) as well as consciousness. To me " awareness " is a word for what is, at heart, unnameable. The value of the word " awareness " is that it suggests how " close to home " this unnameable nothing is. It's not out there, somewhere else, or attainable later when I get into the right state of being. There is nothing one can be aware of, that is not of awareness and through awareness. So, " consciousness " is nothing special in that regard. Scientists consider " consciousness " a biological process. That is one way to consider it. " Consciousness " is a quality. A person has consciousness when alive, but not when dead. A squirrel has consciousness, but not a rock (from the human perspective, that is). So, it's a quality, and is conditional, is part of some situations and not others. You can have it and lose it. - Dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > > > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > > > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > > > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > > > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > > > not other then awareness. > > > -geo- > > The feeling of being conscious of something, makes consciousenss an object. > > Saying there is a body-consciousness makes that an object (or an arising, if you prefer). > > Saying there is an " I am " involved with consciousness, makes " I am " an object (or arising) as well as consciousness. > > To me " awareness " is a word for what is, at heart, unnameable. > > The value of the word " awareness " is that it suggests how " close to home " this unnameable nothing is. > > It's not out there, somewhere else, or attainable later when I get into the right state of being. > > There is nothing one can be aware of, that is not of awareness and through awareness. > > So, " consciousness " is nothing special in that regard. > > Scientists consider " consciousness " a biological process. > > That is one way to consider it. > > " Consciousness " is a quality. > > A person has consciousness when alive, but not when dead. > > A squirrel has consciousness, but not a rock (from the human perspective, that is). > > So, it's a quality, and is conditional, is part of some situations and not others. > > You can have it and lose it. > > - Dan - > The way I have come to understand the isness of is.. is that the mind of all-there-is...ONENESS, being equal to all things, is the act, the portrayal and the eminent domain of all things being separate. Consciousness equates to this separation in the act of being a rock, a tree, a human... in other words the conscious awareness of being a human IS awareness of *human*, *rock*, *tree*... (dis)appearing in the flux and flow of human awareness. For separation to have occurred into *subject* and *object*, there needs to be a *unified ground of being*. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Dear friends, Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream state is in-between the two. Let me explain what does it mean to " be aware of unconsciousness in the deep sleep " . When you wake up in the morning, there would a feeling that you did not sleep the whole night (because there was a recognition of awareness throughout) but the body would be completely relaxed as it would be after any good deep sleep. Of course, in such a deep sleep, one is not aware of his body or mind; there is simply awareness of unconsciousness. Awareness is prime in everything whether it is recognized or not. With love, Anil Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > > > > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > > > > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > > > > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > > > > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > > > > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > > > > not other then awareness. > > > > -geo- > > > > The feeling of being conscious of something, makes consciousenss an object. > > > > Saying there is a body-consciousness makes that an object (or an arising, if you prefer). > > > > Saying there is an " I am " involved with consciousness, makes " I am " an object (or arising) as well as consciousness. > > > > To me " awareness " is a word for what is, at heart, unnameable. > > > > The value of the word " awareness " is that it suggests how " close to home " this unnameable nothing is. > > > > It's not out there, somewhere else, or attainable later when I get into the right state of being. > > > > There is nothing one can be aware of, that is not of awareness and through awareness. > > > > So, " consciousness " is nothing special in that regard. > > > > Scientists consider " consciousness " a biological process. > > > > That is one way to consider it. > > > > " Consciousness " is a quality. > > > > A person has consciousness when alive, but not when dead. > > > > A squirrel has consciousness, but not a rock (from the human perspective, that is). > > > > So, it's a quality, and is conditional, is part of some situations and not others. > > > > You can have it and lose it. > > > > - Dan - > > > > > The way I have come to understand the isness of is.. is that > the mind of all-there-is...ONENESS, being equal to all things, > is the act, the portrayal and the eminent domain of all things > being separate. > > Consciousness equates to this separation in the act of being > a rock, a tree, a human... in other words the conscious awareness > of being a human IS awareness of *human*, *rock*, *tree*... (dis)appearing in the flux and flow of human awareness. > > For separation to have occurred into *subject* and *object*, there > needs to be a *unified ground of being*. > > ~A > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > > > > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > > > > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > > > > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > > > > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > > > > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > > > > not other then awareness. > > > > -geo- > > > > The feeling of being conscious of something, makes consciousenss an object. > > > > Saying there is a body-consciousness makes that an object (or an arising, if you prefer). > > > > Saying there is an " I am " involved with consciousness, makes " I am " an object (or arising) as well as consciousness. > > > > To me " awareness " is a word for what is, at heart, unnameable. > > > > The value of the word " awareness " is that it suggests how " close to home " this unnameable nothing is. > > > > It's not out there, somewhere else, or attainable later when I get into the right state of being. > > > > There is nothing one can be aware of, that is not of awareness and through awareness. > > > > So, " consciousness " is nothing special in that regard. > > > > Scientists consider " consciousness " a biological process. > > > > That is one way to consider it. > > > > " Consciousness " is a quality. > > > > A person has consciousness when alive, but not when dead. > > > > A squirrel has consciousness, but not a rock (from the human perspective, that is). > > > > So, it's a quality, and is conditional, is part of some situations and not others. > > > > You can have it and lose it. > > > > - Dan - > > > > > The way I have come to understand the isness of is.. is that > the mind of all-there-is...ONENESS, being equal to all things, > is the act, the portrayal and the eminent domain of all things > being separate. > > Consciousness equates to this separation in the act of being > a rock, a tree, a human... in other words the conscious awareness > of being a human IS awareness of *human*, *rock*, *tree*... (dis)appearing in the flux and flow of human awareness. > > For separation to have occurred into *subject* and *object*, there > needs to be a *unified ground of being*. > > ~A Hi Anna - Yes, separation is apparent, not actual. The subject (which is not a human being, the human being is the object) is never apart or other than the object (which could be a human being or a chair, but either way is the experience of something, including the experience of having an experience). Subject/object not-two in the moment of perception. This is not a fusion or merging of subject and object, nor a fuzziness, nor a flowingness. It is clear and stark. And it is always " the moment of perception. " So, an investigation, an inquiry is suggested. Not an inquiry as in standing apart asking questions about an object or about an objective situation apart from the questioner. Nor inquiry as a flowing feeling, or merging, or fusing. Inquiry as the direct moment of perception with all its clarity and distinctions. What is involved in/as inquiry is direct seeing, directly being aware as the moment of perception. Thus, inquiry is surrender. Surrender of the separated point of view, the separated perspective. Not that there is someone doing the surrendering, nor even someone who is surrendered. The surrender is the moment of perception itself. -- D -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote:c snipped, for this shining jewel>>>> > > The surrender is the moment of perception itself. > > -- D -- > Where are we before we notice we are? ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > state is in-between the two. No, no, One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims to be the owner of consciousness. > > Let me explain what does it mean to " be aware of unconsciousness in > the deep sleep " . When you wake up in the morning, there would a > feeling that you did not sleep the whole night (because there was a > recognition of awareness throughout) but the body would be completely > relaxed as it would be after any good deep sleep. Of course, in such > a deep sleep, one is not aware of his body or mind; there is simply > awareness of unconsciousness. You are just repeating what Ramana has told and you believe him. But what about if Ramana was tricked and never really has been in deep sleep ? > > Awareness is prime in everything whether it is recognized or not. > This is just what you have read from someone else which in no way was proved to be true. Werner > With love, > Anil > > Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " mister_benn210 " <mister_benn210@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am not sure how you are using the word " aware " . Would it not be perhaps > > > > > also correct to say " awareness permeating consciousness " or " awareness being > > > > > aware of consciousness " ? Its because I am having some trouble to " see " > > > > > consciousness being aware of something. But....in the other hand...in fact, > > > > > awareness totaly aware of consciousness is like saying that consciousness is > > > > > not other then awareness. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > The feeling of being conscious of something, makes consciousenss an object. > > > > > > Saying there is a body-consciousness makes that an object (or an arising, if you prefer). > > > > > > Saying there is an " I am " involved with consciousness, makes " I am " an object (or arising) as well as consciousness. > > > > > > To me " awareness " is a word for what is, at heart, unnameable. > > > > > > The value of the word " awareness " is that it suggests how " close to home " this unnameable nothing is. > > > > > > It's not out there, somewhere else, or attainable later when I get into the right state of being. > > > > > > There is nothing one can be aware of, that is not of awareness and through awareness. > > > > > > So, " consciousness " is nothing special in that regard. > > > > > > Scientists consider " consciousness " a biological process. > > > > > > That is one way to consider it. > > > > > > " Consciousness " is a quality. > > > > > > A person has consciousness when alive, but not when dead. > > > > > > A squirrel has consciousness, but not a rock (from the human perspective, that is). > > > > > > So, it's a quality, and is conditional, is part of some situations and not others. > > > > > > You can have it and lose it. > > > > > > - Dan - > > > > > > > > > The way I have come to understand the isness of is.. is that > > the mind of all-there-is...ONENESS, being equal to all things, > > is the act, the portrayal and the eminent domain of all things > > being separate. > > > > Consciousness equates to this separation in the act of being > > a rock, a tree, a human... in other words the conscious awareness > > of being a human IS awareness of *human*, *rock*, *tree*... (dis)appearing in the flux and flow of human awareness. > > > > For separation to have occurred into *subject* and *object*, there > > needs to be a *unified ground of being*. > > > > ~A > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > state is in-between the two. > > > No, no, > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > No, no, > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > Sorry Tim, For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they haven't convinced me totally. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:c > > > > snipped, for this shining jewel>>>> > > > > > > The surrender is the moment of perception itself. > > > > -- D -- > > > > > > Where are we before we notice we are? > > ~A A globe the contains a globe contains a globe, ad infinitum. But what contains that globe? -- Dan -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > Sorry Tim, > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > Werner Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > Werner > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > Tim, Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > Tim, > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' > or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. .... and 'consciousness is all'... right, Werner? Oh, wait... Time to change arguments. Gotta deny reality, here and now, in order to win an argument with a projected 'there and then'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > > > Werner > > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > Tim, > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. > > There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. > > What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. > > The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. > > Werner How is it that you are able to notice the subjective consciousness and the change in experiences that denotes time? Have you ever looked deeply into this matter, Werner? Rather than just accept that time is passing and you are subjectively registering events after they occur? Have you looked into how it is possible to know this scenario, to observe it as it occurs? Where are you located as you observe a subjective consciousness and events that register over a period of time? If you are the subjective consciousness, then you would have no way to know that there was a time lag. Are you able to first-hand observe this time lag, or are you inferring it, deducing it> Is it an interpretation you're making about your perception, or is it actually perceived? - Dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. > > > > There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. > > > > What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. > > > > The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. > > > > Werner > > How is it that you are able to notice the subjective consciousness and the change in experiences that denotes time? > > Have you ever looked deeply into this matter, Werner? Dan, I have no idea what 'deeply' means for you. And I must admit I am also not the least interested what it means for you or not. And independendly of all what you ask or don't ask, I am wrting what I consider I have to write. > > Rather than just accept that time is passing and you are subjectively registering events after they occur? > > Have you looked into how it is possible to know this scenario, to observe it as it occurs? I don't understand you, Dan. Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. Werner > > Where are you located as you observe a subjective consciousness and events that register over a period of time? > > If you are the subjective consciousness, then you would have no way to know that there was a time lag. > > Are you able to first-hand observe this time lag, or are you inferring it, deducing it> > > Is it an interpretation you're making about your perception, or is it actually perceived? > > - Dan - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > > > > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. > > > > > > There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. > > > > > > What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. > > > > > > The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. > > > > > > Werner > > > > How is it that you are able to notice the subjective consciousness and the change in experiences that denotes time? > > > > Have you ever looked deeply into this matter, Werner? > > > Dan, I have no idea what 'deeply' means for you. And I must admit I am also not the least interested what it means for you or not. > > And independendly of all what you ask or don't ask, I am wrting what I consider I have to write. > > > > > > Rather than just accept that time is passing and you are subjectively registering events after they occur? > > > > Have you looked into how it is possible to know this scenario, to observe it as it occurs? > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > Werner Werner - What I'm saying is extremely simple, very direct. Do you directly perceive the things you are describing? I submit that directly perceived, there aren't things moving into the past and registering in a subjective consciousness after a gap of time. This is something you've figured out, learned, and it becomes a template that you apply to understand what is. And that template is far from simple and direct. Methinks thou dost protest too much, good fellow! Simple, direct perception. Is there time involved? Is something registering somewhere in the past after a gap of time? Please be direct, sir! -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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