Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > > > > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. > > > > > > There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. > > > > > > What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. > > > > > > The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. > > > > > > Werner > > > > How is it that you are able to notice the subjective consciousness and the change in experiences that denotes time? > > > > Have you ever looked deeply into this matter, Werner? > > > Dan, I have no idea what 'deeply' means for you. And I must admit I am also not the least interested what it means for you or not. > > And independendly of all what you ask or don't ask, I am wrting what I consider I have to write. > > > > > > Rather than just accept that time is passing and you are subjectively registering events after they occur? > > > > Have you looked into how it is possible to know this scenario, to observe it as it occurs? > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > Werner > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anil_gupta_rishikesh " <alkaanil@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness: We are conscious when we are awake. In deep-sleep we are unconscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness: Once we have recognition of awareness, we will be aware of > > > > > > > > > being conscious (when we are awake) as well as we will be aware of > > > > > > > > > unconsciousness (when we are in deep sleep). Of course, the dream > > > > > > > > > state is in-between the two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot be aware of being conscious. It is a delusion created by thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware fo being concious' because thought claims > to be the owner of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: Without memory you cannot be conscious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta Maharaj: Of course I am conscious, and fully aware of it. I am not a block of wood! Compare consciousness and its content to a cloud. You are inside the cloud, while I look at. You are lost in it, hardly able to see the tips of your fingers, while I see the cloud and many other clouds and the blue sky too and the sun, the moon, the stars. Reality is one for both of us, but for you it is a prison and for me it is a home. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the words from Niz in no way are obligatory as long as they > haven't convinced me totally. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > Only the direct evidence of one's own senses and reality, here and now, are convincing. And oftentimes, distorted by various beliefs and concepts held onto. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > > > Consciousness is totally subjective. What you realize as 'evidence' or 'reality' is the subjectivity of consciousness. > > > > > > > > There are as many realities as there are human beings. A reality common to all and everyone does not exist. > > > > > > > > What you seem to experience as here and now already happened 400 msec ago. That is the average time the brain is needing to process sensory input and to associate and compare it with past data already stored in memory. > > > > > > > > The here and now is a myth same as the evidence and so called reality presented by a total subjective consciousness together with the time lag just mentioned. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > How is it that you are able to notice the subjective consciousness and the change in experiences that denotes time? > > > > > > Have you ever looked deeply into this matter, Werner? > > > > > > Dan, I have no idea what 'deeply' means for you. And I must admit I am also not the least interested what it means for you or not. > > > > And independendly of all what you ask or don't ask, I am wrting what I consider I have to write. > > > > > > > > > > Rather than just accept that time is passing and you are subjectively registering events after they occur? > > > > > > Have you looked into how it is possible to know this scenario, to observe it as it occurs? > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > Werner > > Werner - > > What I'm saying is extremely simple, very direct. > > Do you directly perceive the things you are describing? > > I submit that directly perceived, there aren't things moving into the past and registering in a subjective consciousness after a gap of time. > > This is something you've figured out, learned, and it becomes a template that you apply to understand what is. > > And that template is far from simple and direct. > > Methinks thou dost protest too much, good fellow! > > Simple, direct perception. > > Is there time involved? Hey, I'm sure Werner has the 400ms thingie 'on good authority'... Never mess wid' someone's 'external authority' ;-). " Objectivity " is true, don'tcha know... we have it all on good authority! ;-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > Werner > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > Wow, Toomb, It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. Werner > > > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > > > > > > Wow, Toomb, > > It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. > > First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > The conceptual mind evolved to look out " When the sense of self tries to look in......its attempts are doomed to failure.........for one very good reason. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > > > > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, Toomb, > > > > It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. > > > > First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > The conceptual mind evolved to look out " > > When the sense of self tries to look in......its attempts are doomed to failure.........for one very good reason. > > Ok, it will fail when trying it oneself, But at least you believed that Dan can turn my mind on itself or at least to initiate that procedure. Question: Oh wonderous Toomb, why can't you turn my mind on itself just like Dan ? > > > > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > > > > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > > > > > > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, Toomb, > > > > > > It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. > > > > > > First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The conceptual mind evolved to look out " > > > > When the sense of self tries to look in......its attempts are doomed to failure.........for one very good reason. > > > > > > > Ok, it will fail when trying it oneself, > > But at least you believed that Dan can turn my mind on itself or at least to initiate that procedure. > > Question: > > Oh wonderous Toomb, why can't you turn my mind on itself just like Dan ? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > 1. There is no such " thing " as mind. There is a minding out of which the pseudo-world emerges. It may believe that is can turn on itself and experience its own reality...but it cannot. 2. Nothing can turn on itself. 3. The conceptual mind turned on itself sees nothing simply because there is nothing there. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > > > > > > > > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, Toomb, > > > > > > > > It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. > > > > > > > > First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The conceptual mind evolved to look out " > > > > > > When the sense of self tries to look in......its attempts are doomed to failure.........for one very good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, it will fail when trying it oneself, > > > > But at least you believed that Dan can turn my mind on itself or at least to initiate that procedure. > > > > Question: > > > > Oh wonderous Toomb, why can't you turn my mind on itself just like Dan ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > 1. There is no such " thing " as mind. > There is a minding out of which the pseudo-world emerges. > It may believe that is can turn on itself and experience its own reality...but it cannot. > > 2. Nothing can turn on itself. > > 3. The conceptual mind turned on itself sees nothing simply because there is nothing there. > > > toombaru > I give up, Toomb: The mind does not exist. But there is a minding out of which the pseudo-world emerges. And this non-existing mind turned on itself sees nothing because there is nothing. And last not least as you wrote: 'It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself'. My tip, Toomb, is: Try to get a simple mind. Complication is no good for you. It will let you write lots of crazy stuff. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand you, Dan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please see: My mind works in a very simple way. If you cannot use a very simple language devout of any impulses to impress, intellectually or otherwise, then my brain will switch off. It usually does that and it already happened with other people a several hundred of times before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, Toomb, > > > > > > > > > > It would be great if that worked. I would be the first one turning his mind on itself. > > > > > > > > > > First of all let us hope that the mind can find itself and then we will see what will happen next. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The conceptual mind evolved to look out " > > > > > > > > When the sense of self tries to look in......its attempts are doomed to failure.........for one very good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, it will fail when trying it oneself, > > > > > > But at least you believed that Dan can turn my mind on itself or at least to initiate that procedure. > > > > > > Question: > > > > > > Oh wonderous Toomb, why can't you turn my mind on itself just like Dan ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There is no such " thing " as mind. > > There is a minding out of which the pseudo-world emerges. > > It may believe that is can turn on itself and experience its own reality...but it cannot. > > > > 2. Nothing can turn on itself. > > > > 3. The conceptual mind turned on itself sees nothing simply because there is nothing there. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > I give up, Toomb: > > The mind does not exist. But there is a minding out of which the pseudo-world emerges. And this non-existing mind turned on itself sees nothing because there is nothing. > > And last not least as you wrote: 'It isn't that your mind is unable to understand. All conceptual minds come to a full stop when the understanding is turned upon itself'. > > My tip, Toomb, is: Try to get a simple mind. Complication is no good for you. It will let you write lots of crazy stuff. > > > > Werner > If one never minds the mind, all kinds of crazy stuff flows in & out from ear to ear... and makes one smile at one's own absurdity. Good morning Werner... love, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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