Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. -- from " I Am That " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. -- from " I Am That " --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > -- from " I Am That " > This is grand. I hope Edg is still here. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > This is grand. > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > toombaru " Grand " is a word learned, when younger. Kids these days are saying " Rad, dude " ;-). This is mechanical... this is overlaid. Is it not obvious? Concept is such nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > toombaru > > " Grand " is a word learned, when younger. > > Kids these days are saying " Rad, dude " ;-). > > This is mechanical... this is overlaid. > > Is it not obvious? > > Concept is such nonsense. > So........let me get this right.......you are using concepts to say that concepts are meaningless. Do you see where this post is going? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > So........let me get this right.......you are using concepts to say > that concepts are meaningless. > > > Do you see where this post is going? No, I don't see that the above post went anywhere at all. Just more conceptual repetition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Beautiful Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > -- from " I Am That " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I agree... that passage is a favorite here, too. I could pass along the entire " I Am That " E-book, if interested. Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Beautiful > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Okay. Thanks. - D - Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > I agree... that passage is a favorite here, too. > > I could pass along the entire " I Am That " E-book, if interested. > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Beautiful > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > This is grand. > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > toombaru Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. Sucks to be you. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > toombaru > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > Sucks to be you. > > > > Ahhhh Edg. I never attack persons. I don't believe in them. I do believe that the person is the belief structure. And I believe that some are more convoluted than others. If you have cut through the underbrush of the personal dream far enough to come across Nisargadatta......my hats are off to you. But don't expect your views to be politely accepted by anyone here. All those years that you spent grooming your spiritual self have been wasted. Stay here....step out into the arena......defend yourself....... This is where the real work begins. All that stuff that you think you believe won't impress anyone here. love toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > toombaru > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > Sucks to be you. P: The Toomb that sucks lives only in your mind. I have met toomb in person and he is a delightful old man, who sits smiling listening without advancing an opinion, unless asked for one. Of course, that toomb lives only in my mind. Is there a Toomb in Toomb's mind? When I look for the Pete who lives in my mind, I find only the looking. Opinions, often, pass for self. There can not be identities where there are no opinions. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > > > Sucks to be you. > > P: The Toomb that sucks lives only in your > mind. I have met toomb in person and he is > a delightful old man, who sits smiling > listening without advancing an opinion, unless > asked for one. Of course, that toomb lives only > in my mind. Is there a Toomb in Toomb's mind? > When I look for the Pete who lives in my > mind, I find only the looking. Opinions, often, > pass for self. There can not be identities where > there are no opinions. P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? Edg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > > > > > Sucks to be you. > > > > P: The Toomb that sucks lives only in your > > mind. I have met toomb in person and he is > > a delightful old man, who sits smiling > > listening without advancing an opinion, unless > > asked for one. Of course, that toomb lives only > > in my mind. Is there a Toomb in Toomb's mind? > > When I look for the Pete who lives in my > > mind, I find only the looking. Opinions, often, > > pass for self. There can not be identities where > > there are no opinions. > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > Edg > " In my world " says it all. :-) toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > > > Sucks to be you. > > P: The Toomb that sucks lives only in your > mind. I have met toomb in person and he is > a delightful old man, who sits smiling > listening without advancing an opinion, unless > asked for one. Of course, that toomb lives only > in my mind. Is there a Toomb in Toomb's mind? > When I look for the Pete who lives in my > mind, I find only the looking. Opinions, often, > pass for self. There can not be identities where > there are no opinions. Now this might be frightening indeed. Meeting two no ones at the same time. Will I be obliterated? Or am I already since I am willing to meet the likes of you-who-are-not. ;-) ~A > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Questioner: A crude, unevolved man will not work without a reward. Is it not right to offer him incentives? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta: He will create for himself incentives anyhow. He does not know that to grow is in the nature of consciousness. He will progress from motive to motive and will chase Gurus for the fulfilment of his desires. When by the laws of his being he finds the way of return (nivritti) he abandons all motives, for his interest in the world is over. He wants nothing -- neither from others nor from himself. He dies to all and becomes the All. To want nothing and do nothing -- that is true creation! To watch the universe emerging and subsiding in one's heart is a wonder. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- from " I Am That " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is grand. > > > > > > > > > > I hope Edg is still here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Edg: Your personal attack shows that you do not understand Nisargadatta's meaning nor have you bothered to really attempt to grok my point of view. I completely agree with Nisargadatta's statement, but somehow, after all my writing here, you miss this fact and think the above quote should shut me up. > > > > > > > > Sucks to be you. > > > > > > P: The Toomb that sucks lives only in your > > > mind. I have met toomb in person and he is > > > a delightful old man, who sits smiling > > > listening without advancing an opinion, unless > > > asked for one. Of course, that toomb lives only > > > in my mind. Is there a Toomb in Toomb's mind? > > > When I look for the Pete who lives in my > > > mind, I find only the looking. Opinions, often, > > > pass for self. There can not be identities where > > > there are no opinions. > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > Edg > > > > > > " In my world " says it all. > > > > :-) > > > > toombaru Yes, that's an honest statement. In my world. I speak of my world, in my world, to the world that constructs me, and which I construct. As to what is beyond my world, I cannot speak of this. I cannot touch this. My world cannot construct this or offer this. When I speak, it is necessary to use the language of my world. When I touch something, it is something in my world, which is tangible to me, knowable by me. -- D -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > Edg P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about the destination, not the car. Of course, the destination is a nowhere, no place that cannot be discussed, so whatever we write about it is not exactly it. In my town there is a classic car show, believers bring their idols to be admired. There is a whole subculture that worship cars for their own sake, and the destination is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in the eyes of believers in portraying advaita just as one of many tools to be used and discarded once the destination is reached. What is the destination? Discarding all tools is the destination. How can the words become the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is trying to call attention to the paper, and words resent that. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > Edg > > P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about > the destination, not the car. Of course, > the destination is a nowhere, no place > that cannot be discussed, so whatever > we write about it is not exactly it. > > In my town there is a classic car show, > believers bring their idols to be admired. > There is a whole subculture that worship > cars for their own sake, and the destination > is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in > the eyes of believers in portraying advaita > just as one of many tools to be used and > discarded once the destination is reached. > > What is the destination? Discarding all tools > is the destination. How can the words become > the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining > the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is > trying to call attention to the paper, and words > resent that. Edg: IF we go with your metaphor of paper and words, then I would ask you if the paper is " consciousness, " or " awareness " or " the Absolute. " How you answer is critical to our discussion in that we need to be talking about the same things. I don't think you've made it clear what you think is the difference, if any, between the three concepts which I think are quite distinct from each other. If Toom wants to be the champion of the paper instead of the words, then he should be silent most of the time, but instead he's here pissing on everyone's words with his brand of urine and saying he's not a pisser! The only thing a paper apologist should be saying is " transcend and get back to me, cuz for sure, if you do that, you'll be instructed such that all intellectual inquiry is both satisfied and yet proven unnecessary. " But Toom is all about making fun of everyone like he's some Wayne type doing his best Ram Tzu impression, and I find that far more easily describable as a psychological fixation rather then an artifact of a spiritual style. He's a poser. Posing is fine as practice, but to pretend one is authoritatively speaking about Advaita as if it were a living reality, an enlightened person's statement, and to do that here where at sometime there's a newbie reading, is shamefully reckless. At the least Toom should man up and should say upfront, " I'm enlightened. I speak from experience and am the equal of any enlightened person before me. " Or, he should be saying, " I'm confident that my intellect can defend my interpretations of Advaita, but I speak from a logician's stance, not an enlightened stance, and thus, my nuances are almost certain to be tilted erroneously in ways that may not be easily caught red-handed by a newbie, so, beware you newbies out there, read Nisargadatta for your truth, come here to play with these truths until you've got your philosopher's muscles. Edg > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > > > Edg > > > > P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about > > the destination, not the car. Of course, > > the destination is a nowhere, no place > > that cannot be discussed, so whatever > > we write about it is not exactly it. > > > > In my town there is a classic car show, > > believers bring their idols to be admired. > > There is a whole subculture that worship > > cars for their own sake, and the destination > > is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in > > the eyes of believers in portraying advaita > > just as one of many tools to be used and > > discarded once the destination is reached. > > > > What is the destination? Discarding all tools > > is the destination. How can the words become > > the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining > > the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is > > trying to call attention to the paper, and words > > resent that. > > Edg: IF we go with your metaphor of paper and words, then I would ask you if the paper is " consciousness, " or " awareness " or " the Absolute. " How you answer is critical to our discussion in that we need to be talking about the same things. I don't think you've made it clear what you think is the difference, if any, between the three concepts which I think are quite distinct from each other. If Toom wants to be the champion of the paper instead of the words, then he should be silent most of the time, but instead he's here pissing on everyone's words with his brand of urine and saying he's not a pisser! > > The only thing a paper apologist should be saying is " transcend and get back to me, cuz for sure, if you do that, you'll be instructed such that all intellectual inquiry is both satisfied and yet proven unnecessary. " > > But Toom is all about making fun of everyone like he's some Wayne type doing his best Ram Tzu impression, and I find that far more easily describable as a psychological fixation rather then an artifact of a spiritual style. He's a poser. Posing is fine as practice, but to pretend one is authoritatively speaking about Advaita as if it were a living reality, an enlightened person's statement, and to do that here where at sometime there's a newbie reading, is shamefully reckless. At the least Toom should man up and should say upfront, " I'm enlightened. I speak from experience and am the equal of any enlightened person before me. " Or, he should be saying, " I'm confident that my intellect can defend my interpretations of Advaita, but I speak from a logician's stance, not an enlightened stance, and thus, my nuances are almost certain to be tilted erroneously in ways that may not be easily caught red-handed by a newbie, so, beware you newbies out there, read Nisargadatta for your truth, come here to play with these truths until you've got your philosopher's muscles. > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Wayne pull your pants down? He can do that. I think he's delightful. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > > > Edg > > > > P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about > > the destination, not the car. Of course, > > the destination is a nowhere, no place > > that cannot be discussed, so whatever > > we write about it is not exactly it. > > > > In my town there is a classic car show, > > believers bring their idols to be admired. > > There is a whole subculture that worship > > cars for their own sake, and the destination > > is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in > > the eyes of believers in portraying advaita > > just as one of many tools to be used and > > discarded once the destination is reached. > > > > What is the destination? Discarding all tools > > is the destination. How can the words become > > the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining > > the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is > > trying to call attention to the paper, and words > > resent that. > > Edg: IF we go with your metaphor of paper and words, then I would ask you if the paper is " consciousness, " or " awareness " or " the Absolute. " How you answer is critical to our discussion in that we need to be talking about the same things. I don't think you've made it clear what you think is the difference, if any, between the three concepts which I think are quite distinct from each other. If Toom wants to be the champion of the paper instead of the words, then he should be silent most of the time, but instead he's here pissing on everyone's words with his brand of urine and saying he's not a pisser! > > The only thing a paper apologist should be saying is " transcend and get back to me, cuz for sure, if you do that, you'll be instructed such that all intellectual inquiry is both satisfied and yet proven unnecessary. " P: Paper in my metaphor doesn't represent consciousness, nor awareness, nor absolute. It represents that dark unknown that stirs. The reaction to stirrings when recorded as information is called consciousness. The dark unknown which stirs is called by various names, including Awareness but it can't be aware of itself as itself. Only in a human brain it can sense itself as the " other. " No meaningful words can be said about that. I won't elaborate on Toom, he lives in Central Cal, I live in San Diego, If you live nearby, we could meet you for a chat. A sight is worth a 1000 words. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about > > > the destination, not the car. Of course, > > > the destination is a nowhere, no place > > > that cannot be discussed, so whatever > > > we write about it is not exactly it. > > > > > > In my town there is a classic car show, > > > believers bring their idols to be admired. > > > There is a whole subculture that worship > > > cars for their own sake, and the destination > > > is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in > > > the eyes of believers in portraying advaita > > > just as one of many tools to be used and > > > discarded once the destination is reached. > > > > > > What is the destination? Discarding all tools > > > is the destination. How can the words become > > > the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining > > > the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is > > > trying to call attention to the paper, and words > > > resent that. > > > > Edg: IF we go with your metaphor of paper and words, then I would ask you if the paper is " consciousness, " or " awareness " or " the Absolute. " How you answer is critical to our discussion in that we need to be talking about the same things. I don't think you've made it clear what you think is the difference, if any, between the three concepts which I think are quite distinct from each other. If Toom wants to be the champion of the paper instead of the words, then he should be silent most of the time, but instead he's here pissing on everyone's words with his brand of urine and saying he's not a pisser! > > > > The only thing a paper apologist should be saying is " transcend and get back to me, cuz for sure, if you do that, you'll be instructed such that all intellectual inquiry is both satisfied and yet proven unnecessary. " > > P: Paper in my metaphor doesn't represent consciousness, > nor awareness, nor absolute. It represents that dark > unknown that stirs. The reaction to stirrings when recorded > as information is called consciousness. The dark unknown > which stirs is called by various names, including > Awareness but it can't be aware of itself as itself. Only > in a human brain it can sense itself as the " other. " No > meaningful words can be said about that. > > I won't elaborate on Toom, he lives in Central Cal, I live > in San Diego, If you live nearby, we could meet you for > a chat. A sight is worth a 1000 words. ) > I would love that. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P -- I agree that all is projection. So? In my world, Toom is a bullshitter, and I'd go before any Advaitic jury and merely have to point out his fuzzy definitions, his conceptual cowardice, and his denial of his anger, and I'd win my case. Do you think " your Toom " is clear about Advaita or is he mostly only a scatterbrained echo machine intent on adding to the noise here? > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > P: Toomb, Dan, and I try to write about > > > the destination, not the car. Of course, > > > the destination is a nowhere, no place > > > that cannot be discussed, so whatever > > > we write about it is not exactly it. > > > > > > In my town there is a classic car show, > > > believers bring their idols to be admired. > > > There is a whole subculture that worship > > > cars for their own sake, and the destination > > > is secondary at best. Well, Toomb sins in > > > the eyes of believers in portraying advaita > > > just as one of many tools to be used and > > > discarded once the destination is reached. > > > > > > What is the destination? Discarding all tools > > > is the destination. How can the words become > > > the paper? On the day of birth, ink began staining > > > the paper. You are here defending words. Toomb is > > > trying to call attention to the paper, and words > > > resent that. > > > > Edg: IF we go with your metaphor of paper and words, then I would ask you if the paper is " consciousness, " or " awareness " or " the Absolute. " How you answer is critical to our discussion in that we need to be talking about the same things. I don't think you've made it clear what you think is the difference, if any, between the three concepts which I think are quite distinct from each other. If Toom wants to be the champion of the paper instead of the words, then he should be silent most of the time, but instead he's here pissing on everyone's words with his brand of urine and saying he's not a pisser! > > > > The only thing a paper apologist should be saying is " transcend and get back to me, cuz for sure, if you do that, you'll be instructed such that all intellectual inquiry is both satisfied and yet proven unnecessary. " > > P: Paper in my metaphor doesn't represent consciousness, > nor awareness, nor absolute. It represents that dark > unknown that stirs. The reaction to stirrings when recorded > as information is called consciousness. The dark unknown > which stirs is called by various names, including > Awareness but it can't be aware of itself as itself. Only > in a human brain it can sense itself as the " other. " No > meaningful words can be said about that. > > I won't elaborate on Toom, he lives in Central Cal, I live > in San Diego, If you live nearby, we could meet you for > a chat. A sight is worth a 1000 words. ) > Edg: P, okay, now just a damned minute there, bub. You're running around using the paper metaphor as if everyone knows what the purport of it should be, and now, here you are introducing the phrase, " dark unknown that stirs. " Arrrgh! Hold still will ya! Pray tell: what are your definitions of awareness, consciousness, and the Absolute -- please show that " dark unknown that stirs " points to something other than one of them? Truly, I am confused about your stance -- I would fail a blue book exam in English 101 on your point of view -- and that's one easy exam, eh? As for the invitation to have a chat, well, that's bromantic and has its allure in an ideal sense, but I'm in Wisconsin, so no beers R Us is on my horizon. If I did meet Toom, it would be a spiritual lesson for me, cuz, from his posts here, I'm not expecting to meet the person you're describing. Toom presents himself here as authoritative -- no caveat empors are provisionally offered to his listeners, and that's a mask that many newbies cannot recognize as " mask. " Toom's not only a blind man, but he's a blind man telling other blind men that he is not blind and " follow me I know the wayless way. " As if. As if neo-Advaitism can be so easily commandeered by mere egoic coup d'état. Does Toom give lectures every Wednesday night in his livingroom to a rag-tag coven of left-hand-side-of-the-bell-curvers? Does he wear a dhoti, does he have a ring he allows others to kiss, does he smile beneficently and deign to lay it all out for his coterie? That would be expected -- does he have tapes and books? Does he even have one single youtube.com video sermonizing? Edg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > If I did meet Toom, it would be a spiritual lesson for me, cuz, from his posts here, I'm not expecting to meet the person you're describing. Toom presents himself here as authoritative -- no caveat empors are provisionally offered to his listeners, and that's a mask that many newbies cannot recognize as " mask. " Toom's not only a blind man, but he's a blind man telling other blind men that he is not blind and " follow me I know the wayless way. " > Speaking without a sense of confusion and questioning is not necessarily authoritative. It can just be clarity and lack of questions, too. A mask perceived by 'others', may be their own mask. Where would an " other mask " be located? Out there somewhere, but appearing right here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > If I did meet Toom, it would be a spiritual lesson for me, cuz, from his posts here, I'm not expecting to meet the person you're describing. Toom presents himself here as authoritative -- no caveat empors are provisionally offered to his listeners, and that's a mask that many newbies cannot recognize as " mask. " Toom's not only a blind man, but he's a blind man telling other blind men that he is not blind and " follow me I know the wayless way. " > > > > Speaking without a sense of confusion and questioning is not necessarily authoritative. > > It can just be clarity and lack of questions, too. > > A mask perceived by 'others', may be their own mask. > > Where would an " other mask " be located? > > Out there somewhere, but appearing right here? Tim, I have to ask: are you like Geo and only recently have come to Advaita? Can you just humor me and tell me your spirituality-history? What have you done, read, been involved with as a spiritual being? All I get from your posts is that you love juggling semantics about one concept: nothingness. It's a droning I would suggest that you look at -- it's your presentation here, ya know -- don't you want to " add " to the conversation instead of screaming " la la la I can't hear you " every time you post? Edg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > >> Tim, I have to ask: are you like Geo and only recently have come to > Advaita? Can you just humor me and tell me your spirituality- > history? Sure. I 'came to Advaita' round about 1998, was 'away' between 2003 and 2008, and 'came back' in early '08. I've read plenty (Shankara, Ramana, Nisargadatta, many 'lesser' teachers as well). All of it in vain, really, other than to compare with one's own direct understanding, here and now. Otherwise, one is a parrot. > All I get from your posts is that you love juggling semantics about > one concept: nothingness. It's a droning I would suggest that you > look at -- it's your presentation here, ya know My " presentation? " Nope... it's your interpretation. Nobody has ever had a 'presentation', friend. It's always been 100% one's own interpretation. One cannot 'present oneself' to 'another', it literally cannot be done. I suggest you look into that ;-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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