Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Tim, I have to ask: are you like Geo and only recently have come to Advaita? Can you just humor me and tell me your spirituality-history? What have you done, read, been involved with as a spiritual being? All I get from your posts is that you love juggling semantics about one concept: nothingness. It's a droning I would suggest that you look at -- it's your presentation here, ya know -- don't you want to " add " to the conversation instead of screaming " la la la I can't hear you " every time you post? Edg Geo came to advaita a few decades ago, edg. Only the word " advaita " met geo a few month ago.... -ego- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > > > > If I did meet Toom, it would be a spiritual lesson for me, cuz, from his posts here, I'm not expecting to meet the person you're describing. Toom presents himself here as authoritative -- no caveat empors are provisionally offered to his listeners, and that's a mask that many newbies cannot recognize as " mask. " Toom's not only a blind man, but he's a blind man telling other blind men that he is not blind and " follow me I know the wayless way. " > > > > > > > Speaking without a sense of confusion and questioning is not necessarily authoritative. > > > > It can just be clarity and lack of questions, too. > > > > A mask perceived by 'others', may be their own mask. > > > > Where would an " other mask " be located? > > > > Out there somewhere, but appearing right here? > > Tim, I have to ask: are you like Geo and only recently have come to Advaita? Can you just humor me and tell me your spirituality-history? What have you done, read, been involved with as a spiritual being? All I get from your posts is that you love juggling semantics about one concept: nothingness. It's a droning I would suggest that you look at -- it's your presentation here, ya know -- don't you want to " add " to the conversation instead of screaming " la la la I can't hear you " every time you post? > > Edg > One's elaborate and extensive search can be a stone around their neck.....a burka over their original face.......metals to wear on their chest...their finely pressed uniform....their diplomas to proudly display in their place of business. It is not easy to give such adornments up and almost impossible to see them as wasted effort. They have been shining a brick in hopes of turning it into a mirror. They have been trying to get a glimpse their self.....and there isn't one. They have been hoping to see their place in the larger scheme of things......and no such things or place exists. There search....every search is a selfish effort to improve that which never existed. Searchers have been searching in their own little bucket of concepts to answers to questions about their own concepts. It is not necessary to spend thirty or forty years searching for that which is always present. Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. If you ever hope the " get it " ......forget everything that you have ever learned. Stop fondling Nisargadatta's feet and use your own to step out into the Naturalness into which you were born. He would have told you to go home and meditate some more or more likely.......would have booted your....know-it-all ass out of that little smokey room. Whine and whimper about the words that you imagine are comimg from outside your personal thought bubble......or claim your inheritance. One thing I know....you and your personal gods....you are never going to get there from where you are. Simply because " there " is only an idea.....as are you. Your friend......possibly your one and only. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Ramana has no "spiritual history" before he ixploded into the Light.-toomba- I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is nothing beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something about it? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > One's elaborate and extensive search can be a stone around their neck.....a burka over their original face.......metals to wear on their chest...their finely pressed uniform....their diplomas to proudly display in their place of business. > > It is not easy to give such adornments up and almost impossible to see them as wasted effort. > > They have been shining a brick in hopes of turning it into a mirror. > > They have been trying to get a glimpse their self.....and there isn't one. > > They have been hoping to see their place in the larger scheme of things......and no such things or place exists. > > There search....every search is a selfish effort to improve that which never existed. > > Searchers have been searching in their own little bucket of concepts to answers to questions about their own concepts. > > It is not necessary to spend thirty or forty years searching for that which is always present. > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > If you ever hope the " get it " ......forget everything that you have ever learned. > > Stop fondling Nisargadatta's feet and use your own to step out into the Naturalness into which you were born. > > He would have told you to go home and meditate some more or more likely.......would have booted your....know-it-all ass out of that little smokey room. > > Whine and whimper about the words that you imagine are comimg from outside your personal thought bubble......or claim your inheritance. > > One thing I know....you and your personal gods....you are never going to get there from where you are. > > Simply because " there " is only an idea.....as are you. > > > > Your friend......possibly your one and only. > > > toombaru As one continues to notice the tiny thought-bubble thought is confined to.... One begins to notice other things. Little things. The way people tilt backwards a bit before crossing the street. The smile on a young child's face. The sound of water through pipes, of electricity in the walls. The sound of the refrigerator motor. The cool feeling of a shirt on one's back. .... and a fundamental and revolutionary change in consciousness, commences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > -toomba- > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is nothing beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something about it? > -geo- > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor or any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once I dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out still as though rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor any word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. From that moment onwards, the I or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > One's elaborate and extensive search can be a stone around their neck.....a burka over their original face.......metals to wear on their chest...their finely pressed uniform....their diplomas to proudly display in their place of business. > > > > It is not easy to give such adornments up and almost impossible to see them as wasted effort. > > > > They have been shining a brick in hopes of turning it into a mirror. > > > > They have been trying to get a glimpse their self.....and there isn't one. > > > > They have been hoping to see their place in the larger scheme of things......and no such things or place exists. > > > > There search....every search is a selfish effort to improve that which never existed. > > > > Searchers have been searching in their own little bucket of concepts to answers to questions about their own concepts. > > > > It is not necessary to spend thirty or forty years searching for that which is always present. > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > > > If you ever hope the " get it " ......forget everything that you have ever learned. > > > > Stop fondling Nisargadatta's feet and use your own to step out into the Naturalness into which you were born. > > > > He would have told you to go home and meditate some more or more likely.......would have booted your....know-it-all ass out of that little smokey room. > > > > Whine and whimper about the words that you imagine are comimg from outside your personal thought bubble......or claim your inheritance. > > > > One thing I know....you and your personal gods....you are never going to get there from where you are. > > > > Simply because " there " is only an idea.....as are you. > > > > > > > > Your friend......possibly your one and only. > > > > > > toombaru > > As one continues to notice the tiny thought-bubble thought is confined to.... > > One begins to notice other things. Little things. > > The way people tilt backwards a bit before crossing the street. The smile on a young child's face. > > The sound of water through pipes, of electricity in the walls. The sound of the refrigerator motor. > > The cool feeling of a shirt on one's back. > > ... and a fundamental and revolutionary change in consciousness, commences. > Yes. When consciousness stops being obsessed with its self......a most amazing....scintillating world comes into view.......and the sight of a hummingbird can take one's breath. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > -toomba- > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is nothing beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something about it? > -geo- > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor or any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once I dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out still as though rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor any word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. From that moment onwards, the I or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM Re: daily Nisargadatta Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > -toomba- > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is nothing > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > about it? > -geo- > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor or any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once I dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out still as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor any word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. === Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. " Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. " " That means I am the deathless Spirit " " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time " " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " What do you mean toomba?? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > -toomba- > > > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is nothing > > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > > about it? > > -geo- > > > > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to > Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. I > was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom > had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but > a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of > health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether > there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and began > thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor or > any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and > there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to > myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; > what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once I > dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out still > as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give > greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly > closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor any > word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. It > will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to > ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is > silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the > voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the > body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; > it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly > almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing > about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the > body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self > focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death > vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. > Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought > might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like > the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends > with all other notes. " [12]. > === > > Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the > Light. " > > Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " > " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. " > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " > " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all > the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " > " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self > continued unbroken from that time " > " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I > continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which > underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " > > What do you mean toomba?? > -geo- > He is saying all there is is this........what ever it is called. .......consciousness.....awareness........sentience........ It has no name....and cannot become an object.........but it is the only reality. And that is who you have been all along. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 4:05 PM Re: daily Nisargadatta Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > -toomba- > > > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is > > nothing > > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > > about it? > > -geo- > > > > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to > Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. > I > was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I > seldom > had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, > but > a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state > of > health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether > there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and > began > thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor > or > any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and > there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to > myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; > what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once > I > dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out > still > as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give > greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly > closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor > any > word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. > It > will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to > ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is > silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the > voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the > body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull > thought; > it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly > almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing > about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the > body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self > focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death > vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of > Self-awareness. > Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought > might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued > like > the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and > blends > with all other notes. " [12]. > === > > Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into > the > Light. " > > Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " > " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. " > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " > " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all > the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " > " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self > continued unbroken from that time " > " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the > I > continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which > underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " > > What do you mean toomba?? > -geo- > He is saying all there is is this........what ever it is called. .......consciousness.....awareness........sentience........ -toomba- " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " . What is that? -geo- " That means I am the deathless Spirit " . And that? -geo- It has no name....and cannot become an object.........but it is the only reality. And that is who you have been all along. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " duveyoung " <edg@> wrote: > > > >> Tim, I have to ask: are you like Geo and only recently have come to > Advaita? Can you just humor me and tell me your spirituality- > > history? > > Sure. I 'came to Advaita' round about 1998, was 'away' between 2003 and 2008, and 'came back' in early '08. > > I've read plenty (Shankara, Ramana, Nisargadatta, many 'lesser' teachers as well). All of it in vain, really, other than to compare with one's own direct understanding, here and now. Otherwise, one is a parrot. > > > All I get from your posts is that you love juggling semantics about > one concept: nothingness. It's a droning I would suggest that you > look at -- it's your presentation here, ya know > > My " presentation? " > > Nope... it's your interpretation. > > Nobody has ever had a 'presentation', friend. > > It's always been 100% one's own interpretation. One cannot 'present oneself' to 'another', it literally cannot be done. > > I suggest you look into that ;-). I like the way you said this. It comes across clearly. And I agree it is worth looking into. The boundary assumed between self and other is indeed worth understanding. Can this boundary be found directly, is it actually perceived? Or is it fabricated? Is it a matter of interpretation - a way to interpret speech, a way to assign location for motives and beliefs, a way to interpret the locus for the origination of behaviors? Could it be that there literally is not a boundary dividing what is into a self-being here and an other-being there? Is it possible that behaviors occur without having originating agents located in bodies or minds? Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house beliefs and attitudes? That it is only social and language conventions that support this way of interpreting - and it is always only an interpretation and never actually perceived? Yes, it is possible, and it is so. I don't perceive any actual boundary dividing myself as a location from a writer, from someone else, existing as a separately bounded existing knower, who will get my words, then have a reaction, then get back to me later. What I perceive is the perception being perceived, which right now includes a room, keyboard, and screen with words appearing, and behaviors happening, such as typing, seeing - and no located knowers or doers anywhere to be found. - Dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 - geo Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 4:14 PM Re: Re: daily Nisargadatta - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 4:05 PM Re: daily Nisargadatta Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > -toomba- > > > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is > > nothing > > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > > about it? > > -geo- > > > > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to > Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. > I > was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I > seldom > had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, > but > a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state > of > health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether > there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and > began > thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor > or > any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and > there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to > myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; > what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once > I > dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out > still > as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give > greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly > closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor > any > word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. > It > will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to > ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is > silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the > voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the > body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull > thought; > it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly > almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing > about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the > body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self > focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death > vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of > Self-awareness. > Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought > might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued > like > the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and > blends > with all other notes. " [12]. > === > > Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into > the > Light. " > > Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " > " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. " > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " > " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all > the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " > " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self > continued unbroken from that time " > " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the > I > continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which > underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " > > What do you mean toomba?? > -geo- > He is saying all there is is this........what ever it is called. .......consciousness.....awareness........sentience........ -toomba- " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " . What is that? And lets be clear: Body and consciusness are born together, they are inseparable...perhaps the same. -geo- " That means I am the deathless Spirit " . And that? Consciusness ends with the end of the body. but he is saying he is deathless. Is that not beiyond consciousness? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house beliefs and attitudes? -d- What is a belief? I mean not "I believe jose street is next corner, or I believe 2+2 =4", but beliefs about existence, about inner needs, morality, countries, tribes. Can such beliefs arise without an imaginary self, an imaginary separate entity? What I want to say is that even if you see that there are no receptacles, no entities, you will notice that some will indeed exhibit beliefs and others are unable to to so - are free of them. This is the skeleton of something arising in my being.... -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Friday, August 14, 2009 4:05 PM > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM > > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > > -toomba- > > > > > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is > > > nothing > > > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > > > about it? > > > -geo- > > > > > > > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to > > Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. > > I > > was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I > > seldom > > had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, > > but > > a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state > > of > > health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether > > there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and > > began > > thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor > > or > > any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and > > there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to > > myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; > > what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once > > I > > dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out > > still > > as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give > > greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly > > closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor > > any > > word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. > > It > > will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to > > ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is > > silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the > > voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the > > body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > > death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull > > thought; > > it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly > > almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing > > about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the > > body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self > > focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death > > vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of > > Self-awareness. > > Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought > > might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued > > like > > the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and > > blends > > with all other notes. " [12]. > > === > > > > Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into > > the > > Light. " > > > > Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: > > > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " > > " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. " > > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " > > " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all > > the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " > > " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self > > continued unbroken from that time " > > " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the > > I > > continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which > > underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " > > > > What do you mean toomba?? > > -geo- > > > > He is saying all there is is this........what ever it is called. > ......consciousness.....awareness........sentience........ > -toomba- > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " . What is that? > -geo- > > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " . And that? > -geo- > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is unspeakable and yet seeks expression. It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. ......and I just ran out of words.... ......but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness......... ....and it is grand beyond measure. toombaru > > It has no name....and cannot become an object.........but it is the only > reality. > > And that is who you have been all along. > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 5:10 PM Re: daily Nisargadatta Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Friday, August 14, 2009 4:05 PM > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Friday, August 14, 2009 3:21 PM > > Re: daily Nisargadatta > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into the Light. > > > -toomba- > > > > > > I read just a few sentences from ramana. Did he ever say there is > > > nothing > > > beyond consciousness or the other way around? Can anyone say something > > > about it? > > > -geo- > > > > > > > " It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to > > Tiruvannamalai - Arunachala) that this great change in my life took > > place. > > I > > was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I > > seldom > > had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, > > but > > a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my > > state > > of > > health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out > > whether > > there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and > > began > > thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor > > or > > any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and > > there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said > > to > > myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has > > come; > > what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at > > once > > I > > dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out > > still > > as th ough rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give > > greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips > > tightly > > closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor > > any > > word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is > > dead. > > It > > will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced > > to > > ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is > > silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even > > the > > voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the > > body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > > death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull > > thought; > > it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived > > directly > > almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real > > thing > > about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with > > the > > body was centered on that I. Fro m that moment onwards, the I or Self > > focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death > > vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of > > Self-awareness. > > Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought > > might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued > > like > > the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and > > blends > > with all other notes. " [12]. > > === > > > > Toomba wrote: " Ramana has no " spiritual history " before he ixploded into > > the > > Light. " > > > > Bellow are some parts writen by ramana: > > > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " > > " The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by > > death. " > > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " > > " I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and > > all > > the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. " > > " The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self > > continued unbroken from that time " > > " Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but > > the > > I > > continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which > > underlies and blends with all other notes. " [12]. " > > > > What do you mean toomba?? > > -geo- > > > > He is saying all there is is this........what ever it is called. > ......consciousness.....awareness........sentience........ > -toomba- > > " So I am the Spirit transcending the body " . What is that? > -geo- > > " That means I am the deathless Spirit " . And that? > -geo- > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) -toom- That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? -geo- There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is unspeakable and yet seeks expression. It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. ......and I just ran out of words.... ......but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness......... ....and it is grand beyond measure. toombaru The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house beliefs and attitudes? > -d- > > What is a belief? I mean not " I believe jose street is next corner, or I believe 2+2 =4 " , but beliefs about existence, about inner needs, morality, countries, tribes. Can such beliefs arise without an imaginary self, an imaginary separate entity? What I want to say is that even if you see that there are no receptacles, no entities, you will notice that some will indeed exhibit beliefs and others are unable to to so - are free of them. > > This is the skeleton of something arising in my being.... > -geo- > The beliefs about the substantial world.....(things that have a physical consensus counterpart) are not the problem. The beliefs that the self has about itself.....(the self-referential dream of separation)...God...morality....love...enlightenment.....etc are the mother of confusion. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 > > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. > (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) > -toom- > > That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? > -geo- > > There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is > unspeakable and yet seeks expression. > > It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. > > .....and I just ran out of words.... > > .....but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the > Edgelessness......... > > ...and it is grand beyond measure. > > toombaru > > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > -geo- > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. It is the Awe that Dan talks about. It is Dante's Beatrice. It is Melville's Moby Dick. It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. > > (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) > > -toom- > > > > That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? > > -geo- > > > > There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is > > unspeakable and yet seeks expression. > > > > It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. > > > > .....and I just ran out of words.... > > > > .....but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the > > Edgelessness......... > > > > ...and it is grand beyond measure. > > > > toombaru > > > > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond > > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > > -geo- > > > > > > > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. > There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. > The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. > It is the Awe that Dan talks about. > It is Dante's Beatrice. > It is Melville's Moby Dick. > It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. > It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. All those is the self. > And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. And behind the mask of self there is nothing. Werner > > > > > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house beliefs and attitudes? > -d- > > What is a belief? I mean not " I believe jose street is next corner, or I believe 2+2 =4 " , but beliefs about existence, about inner needs, morality, countries, tribes. Can such beliefs arise without an imaginary self, an imaginary separate entity? What I want to say is that even if you see that there are no receptacles, no entities, you will notice that some will indeed exhibit beliefs and others are unable to to so - are free of them. > > This is the skeleton of something arising in my being.... > -geo- Hi Geo - The belief that 2 + 2 = 4 gives one a sense of consistency and predictability. A belief is a thought-based formulation that is applied to situations to bring order and predictability, to know what to expect, to have an explanation. Science is built up of beliefs, and includes a way to test those beliefs in an organized and reliable manner. But it is still built of beliefs. You are differentiating between beliefs of one type and beliefs of another type (that you believe involve an assumed self). As I see it, the application of a belief involves imagined continuity, which is the basis for imagining self. For example, knowing that 2+2 = 4 provides a sense of order, stability, repeatability, predictability. Who wants these qualities, who benefits from these qualities, who likes that security, who wants there to be continuity? You, Geo, appear to me to have a belief that there are certain types of people who have a self, and other types of people who don't have a self. Apparently, from what you write above, you believe that the self is restricted to beliefs in certain areas, ones that Krishnamurti liked to talk about (morality, existence, countries, tribes). But look into this. I am cut by a stone on my knee. I know that if I get a band-aid, I can stop the bleeding. I know that if it is bleeding too bad, I can get to the emergency room at a hospital. I believe my car will start if I turn on the ignition switch. You and I have been down this road before. The organism is a belief. The idea that some organisms have beliefs and others don't, is a belief; that the car will start is a belief. The idea that you will get the self to drop away from thought, so thought can function without self, is a misunderstanding, in my opinion. I know it is often represented that way. And I perceive that this way of representing truth is a distortion, and supports the view that there are special teachers with a special way of no-self thinking, who are needed by others who rely on self-thinking, to guide them. And I don't see it like that. Indeed, that is a pernicious kind of self-investment going on there. There are not some thoughts (moralistic thoughts, nationalistic thoughts) that have selves attached as beliefs, and other thoughts ( " find a band-aid to put on this cut " ) that are just an immediate response without a self. Either way, there is just thought arising and departing. The only self ever found is as an interpreted aspect of a thought arising and departing. If there isn't any investment in that interpretation, there is no self to be found anywhere. Another way to say this is: there is no actual continuing being anywhere linking thoughts to their goals over time. Another way to say this is: belief is the application of thought to situations in such a way as to infer continuity over time for things and beings. Another way: there is *only* change, and that changingness includes the unchanging aspect of the changingness. That inferred continuity never actually exists. Belief never truly defines a reality. It's simply a matter of how deeply one questions belief. That's all. - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is > beyond > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > -geo- > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. It is the Awe that Dan talks about. It is Dante's Beatrice. It is Melville's Moby Dick. It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. toombaru I agree. I think the problem between us is that I know for sure that no words can name IT. No concepts, no expression is ever identical with it. I am so clearly sure of that that I am not afraid to call it by any name ....for the very simple reason that I know without a shadow of doubt that it is nameless. You seem to whoble...oscilate..afraid of confusing IT with some stupid name. And midst these oscilations you even deny its existence....then you came back again. There is no name to it.....no need to doubt that. I will call it manuel. Manuel the One! Doesnt change a micron of what is. LOL -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house beliefs and attitudes? > > -d- > > > > What is a belief? I mean not " I believe jose street is next corner, or I believe 2+2 =4 " , but beliefs about existence, about inner needs, morality, countries, tribes. Can such beliefs arise without an imaginary self, an imaginary separate entity? What I want to say is that even if you see that there are no receptacles, no entities, you will notice that some will indeed exhibit beliefs and others are unable to to so - are free of them. > > > > This is the skeleton of something arising in my being.... > > -geo- > > > > > > The beliefs about the substantial world.....(things that have a physical consensus counterpart) are not the problem. > > The beliefs that the self has about itself.....(the self-referential dream of separation)...God...morality....love...enlightenment.....etc are the mother of confusion. > > > > > toombaru That is just your belief. It's a very common belief for those who consider themselves spiritually emancipated. And you try to make that belief real by repeating it endlessly on e-lists. And it still doesn't exist. -- D -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. > > (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) > > -toom- > > > > That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? > > -geo- > > > > There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is > > unspeakable and yet seeks expression. > > > > It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. > > > > .....and I just ran out of words.... > > > > .....but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the > > Edgelessness......... > > > > ...and it is grand beyond measure. > > > > toombaru > > > > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond > > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > > -geo- > > > > > > > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. > There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. > The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. > It is the Awe that Dan talks about. > It is Dante's Beatrice. > It is Melville's Moby Dick. > It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. > It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. > And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. > > > > > > toombaru There is nothing behind the mask. And the mask is undulating, moving. Look, there isn't any boundary separating it from the rest of the universe. -- D -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. > > > (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) > > > -toom- > > > > > > That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? > > > -geo- > > > > > > There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is > > > unspeakable and yet seeks expression. > > > > > > It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. > > > > > > .....and I just ran out of words.... > > > > > > .....but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the > > > Edgelessness......... > > > > > > ...and it is grand beyond measure. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > > > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond > > > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > > > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > > > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. > > There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. > > The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. > > It is the Awe that Dan talks about. > > It is Dante's Beatrice. > > It is Melville's Moby Dick. > > It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. > > It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. > > > All those is the self. > > > > And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. > > > And behind the mask of self there is nothing. > > Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The ego absolutely loves the possibility that it is deathless. > > > (It is......but not in the way it hopes.) > > > -toom- > > > > > > That which you say " it is " is part of consciousness? > > > -geo- > > > > > > There is something that can happen to the sense of separation that is > > > unspeakable and yet seeks expression. > > > > > > It is like an open window......that opens on to itself. > > > > > > .....and I just ran out of words.... > > > > > > .....but there is this empty-fullness that overflows into the > > > Edgelessness......... > > > > > > ...and it is grand beyond measure. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > The thing is that if the ground is not " touched " " this empty-fullness that > > > overflows into the Edgelessness " is just a concept. And the ground is beyond > > > the mind, beyond the conditioned, beyond time and space....and it is.... > > > presence. Or is that empty-fullness that overflows into the Edgelessness a > > > result of conditioning, made up of sensory inputs? I want to know... > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have the thirst that cannot quenched by earthly water. > > There in no well on earth deep enough to reach It. > > The only thing that will appease your ache is your own liquidity. > > It is the Awe that Dan talks about. > > It is Dante's Beatrice. > > It is Melville's Moby Dick. > > It is Don Quixote's Dulcinea. > > It is Whitman's tongue in the heart. > > > All those is the self. > > > > And It is who you are........behind the mask of self. > > > And behind the mask of self there is nothing. > > Werner True. And the mask itself is nothing. - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Friday, August 14, 2009 6:14 PM Re: daily Nisargadatta Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Is it possible that there are not receptacles called selves that house > beliefs and attitudes? > -d- > > What is a belief? I mean not " I believe jose street is next corner, or I > believe 2+2 =4 " , but beliefs about existence, about inner needs, morality, > countries, tribes. Can such beliefs arise without an imaginary self, an > imaginary separate entity? What I want to say is that even if you see that > there are no receptacles, no entities, you will notice that some will > indeed exhibit beliefs and others are unable to to so - are free of them. > > This is the skeleton of something arising in my being.... > -geo- Hi Geo - The belief that 2 + 2 = 4 gives one a sense of consistency and predictability. A belief is a thought-based formulation that is applied to situations to bring order and predictability, to know what to expect, to have an explanation. Science is built up of beliefs, and includes a way to test those beliefs in an organized and reliable manner. But it is still built of beliefs. You are differentiating between beliefs of one type and beliefs of another type (that you believe involve an assumed self). As I see it, the application of a belief involves imagined continuity, which is the basis for imagining self. For example, knowing that 2+2 = 4 provides a sense of order, stability, repeatability, predictability. Who wants these qualities, who benefits from these qualities, who likes that security, who wants there to be continuity? You, Geo, appear to me to have a belief that there are certain types of people who have a self, and other types of people who don't have a self. Apparently, from what you write above, you believe that the self is restricted to beliefs in certain areas, ones that Krishnamurti liked to talk about (morality, existence, countries, tribes). But look into this. I am cut by a stone on my knee. I know that if I get a band-aid, I can stop the bleeding. I know that if it is bleeding too bad, I can get to the emergency room at a hospital. I believe my car will start if I turn on the ignition switch. You and I have been down this road before. The organism is a belief. The idea that some organisms have beliefs and others don't, is a belief; that the car will start is a belief. The idea that you will get the self to drop away from thought, so thought can function without self, is a misunderstanding, in my opinion. I know it is often represented that way. And I perceive that this way of representing truth is a distortion, and supports the view that there are special teachers with a special way of no-self thinking, who are needed by others who rely on self-thinking, to guide them. And I don't see it like that. Indeed, that is a pernicious kind of self-investment going on there. There are not some thoughts (moralistic thoughts, nationalistic thoughts) that have selves attached as beliefs, and other thoughts ( " find a band-aid to put on this cut " ) that are just an immediate response without a self. Either way, there is just thought arising and departing. The only self ever found is as an interpreted aspect of a thought arising and departing. If there isn't any investment in that interpretation, there is no self to be found anywhere. Another way to say this is: there is no actual continuing being anywhere linking thoughts to their goals over time. Another way to say this is: belief is the application of thought to situations in such a way as to infer continuity over time for things and beings. Another way: there is *only* change, and that changingness includes the unchanging aspect of the changingness. That inferred continuity never actually exists. Belief never truly defines a reality. It's simply a matter of how deeply one questions belief. That's all. - D - Yes I know we have been into this other times, doesnt matter. It seems to me that what is missing in the above is a clear awareness, a clear seeing of the conditioned as time, space, light, sounds...In order to this " field " be clearly seen there is a first pre-condition: the understanding that there is no entity. It is the same as saying that there is an unitary seeing/being/doing, no fragmentation within the field. When you say " for example, knowing that 2+2 = 4 provides a sense of order, stability, repeatability, predictability. Who wants these qualities, who benefits from these qualities, who likes that security, who wants there to be continuity? " , you are implicitly stating that there is no way to live in this world in a non-fragmented way. If this is the case the door seems to be closed because we must live...nonetheless we...not we....IT is, even as we live - obviously. To calculate 2+2 must not need a self, some entity to benefit from it, because it is clear that it is just thought thinking in its small limited field as consciousness. This is beeing seen. No movements, events, episodes, things, prevent the perception of this luminous limited field as it is unfolding. I know...seems a contradiction, because I say that sometimes all is dark here - indeed - but that remains unsolved for the time being...(time??). Is the organism, consciousness a belief? I would say it is a conditioning, but you would need to be a sorcerer (nagualism) in order to escape from it. Is the self a belief? Yes. And that beleif can be dropped in a sec. and still 2+2=4. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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