Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Dear Dragon If you had really understood Ramana teachings, there wouldn't be any questions coming up like yours about what to do or not to do, it will just come on its own. in Ramana Marifa - Dragan Pavlovic Ramana Group Saturday, August 11, 2007 4:37 PM Who am I? Hello Richard, I know what you want to say to me: that I have too long mails. : ) You are right. To reslove some very practical questions, related to karma, spirtual heart, the lack of joy, a lot of stress relief, to find the key how to perform vichara in the right way, questions related to ego, to the final process of self - realization, free will against karma,... It is joined practice and theory, and we must find our answers to all these questions. Without guru, it is very hard work. I fell such relief that I finished that hard work. If you don't know (or somebody from this group) don't know what I am talking about, these are questions, which are not so easy to be solved, really solved: How to do atma vichara? Is it only effort or something more or less? Does our ego survive when we are sages? Are you ready to go through the terrible fear which is always present during the moment of self - realization? (Ramana had it, Paul Brunton had it, Echart Tolle...., they all had some 'dying' moment during the final realization moments. Whirlpools, the loss of consciosness, some unknown power..., are you ready for that? There is no 'transition' without that 'nice' side-effects. When ego dies, it squeal as a pig. Always. Are we really ready to be in the state as Anthony de Mello call 'to be emotionally independent of anything and anyone?' We can read books, meditate,...., but something in us can wish only to acquire some additional boost, but it (ego) is not ready to die. Are we really ready to be independent, or we are just curios about it? Everything what we are now, all our features, will cease. They can be illusion, but can we live wihtout them? Do we love them too much? Is there something which says: "I want to be dependent."? And the other side which always be hunger for freedom? Is our practice miserable, is our vichara nothing but an another way to torture ourselves, because we didn't put some important ingredient: a pinch of joy, as Buddhist do? Or we are too lazy to go in some practical aspects of vichara, and we are so happy just to talk about it? Is the process of losing ego irreversible, so we can't go back to the previous state? Yes, it is the case, so, are we ready to step in somehting which can be reversed in its original state? Or about our spiritual heart? Should it be the place of our intensive foucus or not? There are a lot of questions that must be solved before we can say that we are ready. I know that I am, and I had to solve all these and hundreds of other questions. Why? Because nothing is so easy when you know that you have no choice. That you can't live another way, you can only follow your destiny. It brings me to your moving to Tiruvanamalai, Richard. Some of members made jokes (including you) that you are not your body so nobody travels. Ramana explains that very well. Q: "Should I go to jungle and left my family (to do vichara)?" Ramana: "If it were your prarabdha karma, this question woudn't be asked." The same is with you. It is too big step to be accidental. It is your prarabdha. I have no wish to go to Arunachala, but you have. You have your prarabdha, I have mine. So, I have nothing but the best wishes for you. And, I have a question for you: do you think that we, who understand Ramana's teaching, have done enough to share our insights with the other people, because 90% of them can't undestand almost nothng? Another words, would it be some kind of blasphemy to explain vichara method more thoroughly, to give the people some idea how to start and find themselves? As I said in my last mail, vichara is not only: "Who is thinking about...? I am? Who am I?" There is a lot of things beside it. I could see from Ramana's books that many questioneer didn't get some things. Then he used to cut them with 'who is asking that', or 'investigate that', and they have no clue what to do. Do you think that we should put some more light on the process? Or you think that it is different for any person, so we shoudn't even try? I agree, we are all different, but if we don't have options, we don't have the whole picture. Almost any questioneer was confused in Ramana's company. I am full of words, again. Because I don't want anyone to go through the hell I had to pass. You had your Guru. I was so alone. And I had to resolve all questions without any help. Just me and books. Ramana was so silent. No mercy if you are not ready to make a enorumous effort. Now, Ramana is smilling again, when I killed my inner questions and demons. Now, he is very helpful. His eyes are vivid again. Can any Ramana's devotee help to the others to avoid some pits? Or you think it is wrong, because Ramana didn't give any instruction how we should perform vichara? Just 'investigate', 'who is the one who...',..., it is a great help when Ramana is nearby and he is the one who does the 'intervention' in questioneers mind. But to have a teacher who has the body, that is different. You have that kind of guru. For me, Ramana's picture is more than enough. But, what about the others? The members of this group could think that I have a 'sage' syndrom. No, I don't. I am an ordinary jerk, as any other person. But, I have no urge to read no more, everything is done for me. I've completed my 'school' phase and I resolved all questions that I needed. My knowledge is completed and I live by it. Every day more and more. Sometimes I used to do vichara 2 or 3 hours, but I was full of misery. Now, I don't even look at my watch. One minute of the real practice is better than some wrong oriented effort for 5 hours. The right one minute gives me more peace and inner freedom and indepenence than tons of yesterday's efforts. I don't have 'Ganapati Shastri's syndrome', that we should do some 'reform' of Ramana's teachings. But to make it more understandable to people, that it could be done. It still would be an individual paht, vichara, but the method and theory would be more clear. For the most people, even the concept of spiriutal heart can be misinterperted, I've seen many expamples of that.Richard Clarke wrote: Dear Dragon, Nameste. The more I practice, the more I feel like silence is the best answer. So my emails and postings are getting shorter. I have had the great good fortune to have a Self-realized sage as a teacher since 1990. This is Master Nome of SAT (WWW.satramana.org). They recently have added a download page and have an mp3 recording of a satsang that you can listen to, and copies of their magazine, 'Reflections' that you can download. http://www.satramana.org/html/downloads.htm I also post from his writings. Nome practiced Self-inquiry, and is a wonderful teacher of it, and Ramana's teachings, and Sankara's Advaita Vedanta. One thing Nome says again and again about inquiry is 'Let your focus be non-objective.' Any objective focus, focus on what is known, no matter how subtle, is a view through the mind. What is it within your self that is always present and never objective? That is where to look. Enough for now. Now two, Richard - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Dear Marifa please explain what made you angry reading Dragans mail - i cannot understand your reaction. Please help..... in Ramana michael - Emanuele De Benedetti Sunday, August 12, 2007 12:54 PM Re: Who am I? Dear Dragon If you had really understood Ramana teachings, there wouldn't be any questions coming up like yours about what to do or not to do, it will just come on its own. in Ramana Marifa - Dragan Pavlovic Ramana Group Saturday, August 11, 2007 4:37 PM Who am I? Hello Richard, I know what you want to say to me: that I have too long mails. : ) You are right. To reslove some very practical questions, related to karma, spirtual heart, the lack of joy, a lot of stress relief, to find the key how to perform vichara in the right way, questions related to ego, to the final process of self - realization, free will against karma,... It is joined practice and theory, and we must find our answers to all these questions. Without guru, it is very hard work. I fell such relief that I finished that hard work. If you don't know (or somebody from this group) don't know what I am talking about, these are questions, which are not so easy to be solved, really solved: How to do atma vichara? Is it only effort or something more or less? Does our ego survive when we are sages? Are you ready to go through the terrible fear which is always present during the moment of self - realization? (Ramana had it, Paul Brunton had it, Echart Tolle...., they all had some 'dying' moment during the final realization moments. Whirlpools, the loss of consciosness, some unknown power..., are you ready for that? There is no 'transition' without that 'nice' side-effects. When ego dies, it squeal as a pig. Always. Are we really ready to be in the state as Anthony de Mello call 'to be emotionally independent of anything and anyone?' We can read books, meditate,...., but something in us can wish only to acquire some additional boost, but it (ego) is not ready to die. Are we really ready to be independent, or we are just curios about it? Everything what we are now, all our features, will cease. They can be illusion, but can we live wihtout them? Do we love them too much? Is there something which says: "I want to be dependent."? And the other side which always be hunger for freedom? Is our practice miserable, is our vichara nothing but an another way to torture ourselves, because we didn't put some important ingredient: a pinch of joy, as Buddhist do? Or we are too lazy to go in some practical aspects of vichara, and we are so happy just to talk about it? Is the process of losing ego irreversible, so we can't go back to the previous state? Yes, it is the case, so, are we ready to step in somehting which can be reversed in its original state? Or about our spiritual heart? Should it be the place of our intensive foucus or not? There are a lot of questions that must be solved before we can say that we are ready. I know that I am, and I had to solve all these and hundreds of other questions. Why? Because nothing is so easy when you know that you have no choice. That you can't live another way, you can only follow your destiny. It brings me to your moving to Tiruvanamalai, Richard. Some of members made jokes (including you) that you are not your body so nobody travels. Ramana explains that very well. Q: "Should I go to jungle and left my family (to do vichara)?" Ramana: "If it were your prarabdha karma, this question woudn't be asked." The same is with you. It is too big step to be accidental. It is your prarabdha. I have no wish to go to Arunachala, but you have. You have your prarabdha, I have mine. So, I have nothing but the best wishes for you. And, I have a question for you: do you think that we, who understand Ramana's teaching, have done enough to share our insights with the other people, because 90% of them can't undestand almost nothng? Another words, would it be some kind of blasphemy to explain vichara method more thoroughly, to give the people some idea how to start and find themselves? As I said in my last mail, vichara is not only: "Who is thinking about...? I am? Who am I?" There is a lot of things beside it. I could see from Ramana's books that many questioneer didn't get some things. Then he used to cut them with 'who is asking that', or 'investigate that', and they have no clue what to do. Do you think that we should put some more light on the process? Or you think that it is different for any person, so we shoudn't even try? I agree, we are all different, but if we don't have options, we don't have the whole picture. Almost any questioneer was confused in Ramana's company. I am full of words, again. Because I don't want anyone to go through the hell I had to pass. You had your Guru. I was so alone. And I had to resolve all questions without any help. Just me and books. Ramana was so silent. No mercy if you are not ready to make a enorumous effort. Now, Ramana is smilling again, when I killed my inner questions and demons. Now, he is very helpful. His eyes are vivid again. Can any Ramana's devotee help to the others to avoid some pits? Or you think it is wrong, because Ramana didn't give any instruction how we should perform vichara? Just 'investigate', 'who is the one who...',..., it is a great help when Ramana is nearby and he is the one who does the 'intervention' in questioneers mind. But to have a teacher who has the body, that is different. You have that kind of guru. For me, Ramana's picture is more than enough. But, what about the others? The members of this group could think that I have a 'sage' syndrom. No, I don't. I am an ordinary jerk, as any other person. But, I have no urge to read no more, everything is done for me. I've completed my 'school' phase and I resolved all questions that I needed. My knowledge is completed and I live by it. Every day more and more. Sometimes I used to do vichara 2 or 3 hours, but I was full of misery. Now, I don't even look at my watch. One minute of the real practice is better than some wrong oriented effort for 5 hours. The right one minute gives me more peace and inner freedom and indepenence than tons of yesterday's efforts. I don't have 'Ganapati Shastri's syndrome', that we should do some 'reform' of Ramana's teachings. But to make it more understandable to people, that it could be done. It still would be an individual paht, vichara, but the method and theory would be more clear. For the most people, even the concept of spiriutal heart can be misinterperted, I've seen many expamples of that.Richard Clarke wrote: Dear Dragon, Nameste. The more I practice, the more I feel like silence is the best answer. So my emails and postings are getting shorter. I have had the great good fortune to have a Self-realized sage as a teacher since 1990. This is Master Nome of SAT (WWW.satramana.org). They recently have added a download page and have an mp3 recording of a satsang that you can listen to, and copies of their magazine, 'Reflections' that you can download. http://www.satramana.org/html/downloads.htm I also post from his writings. Nome practiced Self-inquiry, and is a wonderful teacher of it, and Ramana's teachings, and Sankara's Advaita Vedanta. One thing Nome says again and again about inquiry is 'Let your focus be non-objective.' Any objective focus, focus on what is known, no matter how subtle, is a view through the mind. What is it within your self that is always present and never objective? That is where to look. Enough for now. Now two, Richard - Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.13/947 - Release 11/08/2007 14.29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Hello Dragon, I have been observing this discussion and am adding my comment. Let us assume all the questions are answered, all the explanations are given. Then what? The question remains " Who or What was asking? 'Who' wants to know? " The Answer, " I am asking. " The last question, " Who am 'I'? " There is no method but to live with that question, and in every situation. Realization comes of itself in its own time, in its own way. " Superstars " shine outside of us, the goal is to find the light shining within us. It does not matter how great another is; what matters is to find it for oneself. All the teachers and teachings are but fingers pointing the way. It is an age-old truth that each must walk the path until " I " discover " I " am the path. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 , " David " <david.bozzi wrote: > > I am God. > (with a touch of Amnesia) > > Last one in, turn off the Dark. > > > > THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE CAT'S MEOW, David. Thanks. My favorite creation story freely retold from a Sufi story: God awakens from a loooooooooooooooooong sleep, doesn't know who s/he/it is and stretches out (one does tend to awaken rather forgetful & needs a long stretch) his/her/its imagination and voila: creation happens. Creation answers his/her/its WHO AM I? (sound of a switch turning) xoxoxo Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 anabebe57 wrote: > > , " David " <david.bozzi@> wrote: > > > > I am God. > > (with a touch of Amnesia) > > > > Last one in, turn off the Dark. > > > > > > > > > > > THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE CAT'S MEOW, David. Thanks. > > My favorite creation story freely retold from a Sufi story: > > God awakens from a loooooooooooooooooong sleep, doesn't know who > s/he/it is and stretches out (one does tend to awaken rather forgetful > & needs a long stretch) his/her/its imagination and voila: creation > happens. > > Creation answers his/her/its WHO AM I? > > (sound of a switch turning) Sometimes in my amnesia I AM the cutest kitten ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 , " David " <david.bozzi wrote: > > anabebe57 wrote: > > > > , " David " <david.bozzi@> wrote: > > > > > > I am God. > > > (with a touch of Amnesia) > > > > > > Last one in, turn off the Dark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE CAT'S MEOW, David. Thanks. > > > > My favorite creation story freely retold from a Sufi story: > > > > God awakens from a loooooooooooooooooong sleep, doesn't know who > > s/he/it is and stretches out (one does tend to awaken rather forgetful > > & needs a long stretch) his/her/its imagination and voila: creation > > happens. > > > > Creation answers his/her/its WHO AM I? > > > > (sound of a switch turning) > > > > Sometimes in my amnesia I AM the cutest kitten ever. > > Sorry, I meant this link: God in all His/Her Cutness Glory: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 David shared: > Sorry, I meant this link: > > God in all His/Her Cutness Glory: > > Oh geez I can't get anything right the first (or second) time. That's why I have to inhabit a body and go to 'World School' to heal and learn. (Sadly there's only One Graduate and then there's the rest of Us) The kitten is the Archetype of *CUTE*. Not cut... 'Cut' is for our God siblings who are fitness fanatics. (not that they're bad people but generally I find them way too motivated for me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Very Nice Painting. Reminds me the famous Sankara Sloka, " That this world is like a reflection of a City Seen on a mirror !! " . Regards Venugopal --- Gabriele Ebert <g.ebert wrote: > Who is that? > Is that me? > Who am I? > > > http://gabriele.ebert.googlepages.com/whoami%3F-werbinich%3F > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. To know how, go to http://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-08.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 People are pulled together and bound by their common beliefs. Scientologists, Southern Baptists, flat earthers, poultry fanciers, chess aficionados, white supremacists, democrats, adviatians, collectors of beanie babies, bird watchers......... They share more than a common language and a common edge. They become one living organism that will defend its imaginary kingdom if threatened. There is no such thing as an individual. There is only an empty hall of reflected group images...congealed into an assumption of autonomy. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > > > People are pulled together and bound by their common beliefs. > > Scientologists, Southern Baptists, flat earthers, poultry fanciers, chess aficionados, white supremacists, democrats, adviatians, collectors of beanie babies, bird watchers......... > > They share more than a common language and a common edge. > > They become one living organism that will defend its imaginary kingdom if threatened. > > There is no such thing as an individual. > > There is only an empty hall of reflected group images...congealed into an assumption of autonomy. > > > > > toombaru > Ok, and now, Toomb ? Shall I dance or shed tears ? Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > People are pulled together and bound by their common beliefs. > > > > Scientologists, Southern Baptists, flat earthers, poultry fanciers, chess aficionados, white supremacists, democrats, adviatians, collectors of beanie babies, bird watchers......... > > > > They share more than a common language and a common edge. > > > > They become one living organism that will defend its imaginary kingdom if threatened. > > > > There is no such thing as an individual. > > > > There is only an empty hall of reflected group images...congealed into an assumption of autonomy. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > Ok, and now, Toomb ? > > Shall I dance or shed tears ? > > Werner > That depends on which side of the mirror you are on. :-) toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are pulled together and bound by their common beliefs. > > > > > > Scientologists, Southern Baptists, flat earthers, poultry fanciers, chess aficionados, white supremacists, democrats, adviatians, collectors of beanie babies, bird watchers......... > > > > > > They share more than a common language and a common edge. > > > > > > They become one living organism that will defend its imaginary kingdom if threatened. > > > > > > There is no such thing as an individual. > > > > > > There is only an empty hall of reflected group images...congealed into an assumption of autonomy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > Ok, and now, Toomb ? > > > > Shall I dance or shed tears ? > > > > Werner > > > > > > > That depends on which side of the mirror you are on. > > :-) > > > toombaru > How fatal, Toomb, There is no mirror ! Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are pulled together and bound by their common beliefs. > > > > > > > > Scientologists, Southern Baptists, flat earthers, poultry fanciers, chess aficionados, white supremacists, democrats, adviatians, collectors of beanie babies, bird watchers......... > > > > > > > > They share more than a common language and a common edge. > > > > > > > > They become one living organism that will defend its imaginary kingdom if threatened. > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as an individual. > > > > > > > > There is only an empty hall of reflected group images...congealed into an assumption of autonomy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, and now, Toomb ? > > > > > > Shall I dance or shed tears ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > That depends on which side of the mirror you are on. > > > > :-) > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > How fatal, Toomb, > > There is no mirror ! > > Werner > I know. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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