Woman in sweat lodge says people were pushed to stay

[Guest guest]

Another "Pied Piper Guru and Sheeple" story!

 

Woman in sweat lodge says people were pushed to stay

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/oct/22/transcendence-terror-woman-sweat-lodge/?uniontrib

By Felicia Fonseca

ASSOCIATED PRESS 2:00 a.m. October 22, 2009

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. — More than 50 followers of spiritual guru James Arthur Ray had just endured five strenuous days of fasting, sleep-deprivation and mind-altering breathing exercises when he led them into a sweat lodge ceremony.

It was supposed to be a religious awakening, the culmination of a $9,000-plus-per-person retreat outside Sedona, Ariz., aimed at helping people find a new vision for life. But it wasn't long before the ceremony turned into a terrifying experience.

People were vomiting in the stifling heat, gasping for air, and lying unconscious on the sand and gravel floor, said participant Beverley Bunn. One man was burned when he crawled into the rocks, seemingly unaware of what he was doing, Bunn said. Ultimately, three people would die.

When participants exhibited weakness, Ray urged them to push past it and chided those who wanted to leave, Bunn said.

“I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up,” Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: “Leave her alone. She'll be dealt with in the next round.”

Bunn, 43, of Texas provided her wrenching description of the sweat lodge tragedy in an interview with The Associated Press, the first public account from a participant in the Oct. 8 ceremony.

It also marks a significant revelation in the criminal investigation into Ray over the episode because it portrays him as driving participants to stay in the lodge despite signs all around him that the situation had turned bad. Investigators are considering bringing charges against Ray and are attempting to learn about his actions that night in a case that has cast a harsh spotlight on Ray and his self-help empire.

Howard Bragman, a spokesman for Ray, said many people at the “Spiritual Warrior” event had “amazing experiences,” and noted that people shouldn't rush to judgment about what occurred during an ongoing investigation.

“This is only one person out of many at this point,” Bragman said.

According to Bunn, participants were given short notice before they were to enter the sweat lodge. As they readied for it, they removed their jewelry, placed prayer pouches filled with nicotine around their necks and ripped out pages in a journal they kept detailing what in life was holding them back.

A fire heating up rocks outside the sweat lodge consumed the journal pages.

Lightly dressed in bathing suits, shorts and tank tops, they received a blessing meant to cut away negative energy before crawling into the sweat lodge. Ray led the group inside and sat next to the opening. A second row formed, their bodies closest to what would be a pile of heated rocks.

Ray sprinkled them with sandalwood meant for aroma. He led the group in chants and prayers in an American Indian tongue during the sweat lodge ceremony. He poured a 5-gallon bucket of water over the rocks, sending a rush of steam throughout the makeshift structure. That began a two-hour ceremony broken up into 15- to 20-minute rounds that some later would describe as “profound,” according to a transcript of a call Ray held with participants days later.

For others, it was terrifying.

Participants began to show signs they were weakening midway through the ceremony. By the time people started collapsing, Bunn already had crawled to a spot near the opening of the sweat lodge, praying for the door to stay open as long as possible between rounds so that she could breathe in fresh air.

At one point, someone lifted up the back of the tent, allowing light into the otherwise pitch-black tent. Ray demanded to know where the light was coming from and who committed the “sacrilegious act,” Bunn said. A man, yelling “I can't take it, I can't breathe, I can't do this” had crawled out, Bunn said.

People weren't physically forced to stay inside but strongly encouraged.

“It was all about mind over matter — you're stronger than your body,” Bunn said.

Bunn lasted the entire two hours in the sweat lodge, but nearly two dozen others were hospitalized. Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee died upon arrival at a hospital. Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake, Minn., died more than a week later at a Flagstaff hospital.

No drugs, alcohol nor stimulants were used in the sweat lodge or during the retreat, Bunn said.

“These people, including myself, were really just searching for a better way to live and a better life,” she said. “And I commend us for that.”

Looking back, Bunn said it's easy to see how so many people were overcome. No one was well-hydrated, the sweat lodge was poorly ventilated, no safety tips were provided and appropriate medical care wasn't available, she said.

As the leader of the “Spiritual Warrior” event, Ray pushed for participants to go without sleep, enter into altered states of mind through breathing exercises and meditation, compete in a game in which he played God and fast for 36 hours during a vision quest, Bunn said.

Sheriff's investigators in Arizona's Yavapai County are treating the deaths as homicides but have yet to determine the cause. Ray has hired an investigative team to determine what went wrong, and he vowed to continue with his work despite criticism.

“I have taken heat for that decision, but if I choose to lock myself in my home, I am sure I would be criticized for hiding and not practicing what I preach,” Ray wrote.

Ray has become a self-help superstar by packaging his charismatic personality and selling wealth. He uses free seminars to recruit people to expensive ones such as the Sedona retreat that led to the sweat lodge tragedy.

Ray told participants the sweat lodge ceremony would be one of the most intense experiences of their lives.

As it neared the end, Bunn said some participants found themselves physically and mentally unable to tend to those around them. After the eighth round, Ray instructed them to exit the sweat lodge just has they had entered — going clockwise, a movement meant to symbolize being inside a mother's womb.

What followed was a triage situation with people laid out on tarps and water being thrown on them to bring down body temperatures. Some people weren't breathing and had bloodshot eyes. One woman unknowingly walked toward the fire before someone grabbed her, Bunn said.

Shouts of “we need water, we need water” rang out. “They couldn't fill up the buckets fast enough,” Bunn said.

Off to the side, a medical doctor participating in the retreat performed CPR on Shore and Brown with the aid of others. When Bunn asked if she could help because she knew CPR, she was told to stay back.

Ray was standing about 10 feet away, watching, Bunn said.

“He didn't do anything, he didn't participate in helping,” she said. “He did nothing. He just stood there.”

Union-Tribune

[Guest guest]

It says to me that people feel desperate to find some truth, that they are

willing to push themselves and shell out serious money to try to get an

" ultimate experience, " and that they very badly want to believe the someone can

lead them there. And that someone will take that role and be their guide -

which has happened for hundreds of years.

 

This guy had co-written an inspirational book about how your reality is

constructed by the quality of your own energy. It sounds like people wanted

something more than just ideas in a book, and he came up with a program to

provide a " really intense experience. "

 

Sleep deprivation, fasting, sweating - these are ways to bring about intense and

unusual experiences, and have been for centuries.

 

The perennial search for the ultimate experience and knowledge.

 

Yes, he was greedy and irresponsible, and perhaps blindly ambitious and

self-important in not consulting with medical professionals in a situation like

this, and not caring about signs of physical exhaustion and collapse.

 

Yet this situation also reflects the extent of the human hunger for a truth from

themselves, through their own energy and experience. A legitimate concern, not

just sheep.

 

Maybe the survivors will note that even an " ultimate experience " won't do,

anymore than a really intense drug high.

 

The collapse of the search isn't due to an ultimate experience.

 

This is what makes it difficult.

 

People sense the urgency, sense that they are operating without being grounded

in reality, want to understand and know experientially what is real ...

 

Yet the dropping away of the person itself, the one who would get to have the

experience, and be there knowing truth -

 

Aye, there's the rub ...

 

 

- Dan -

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , " Michael Adamson " <adamson wrote:

>

>

> Another " Pied Piper Guru and Sheeple " story!

> Woman in sweat lodge says people were pushed to stay

>

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/oct/22/transcendence-terror-woman-sw\

eat-lodge/?uniontrib

> By Felicia Fonseca

>

>

> ASSOCIATED PRESS 2:00 a.m. October 22, 2009

> FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - More than 50 followers of spiritual guru James Arthur Ray

had just endured five strenuous days of fasting, sleep-deprivation and

mind-altering breathing exercises when he led them into a sweat lodge ceremony.

>

> It was supposed to be a religious awakening, the culmination of a

$9,000-plus-per-person retreat outside Sedona, Ariz., aimed at helping people

find a new vision for life. But it wasn't long before the ceremony turned into a

terrifying experience.

>

> People were vomiting in the stifling heat, gasping for air, and lying

unconscious on the sand and gravel floor, said participant Beverley Bunn. One

man was burned when he crawled into the rocks, seemingly unaware of what he was

doing, Bunn said. Ultimately, three people would die.

>

> When participants exhibited weakness, Ray urged them to push past it and

chided those who wanted to leave, Bunn said.

>

> " I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up, " Bunn recalls hearing

from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: " Leave her

alone. She'll be dealt with in the next round. "

>

> Bunn, 43, of Texas provided her wrenching description of the sweat lodge

tragedy in an interview with The Associated Press, the first public account from

a participant in the Oct.?8 ceremony.

>

> It also marks a significant revelation in the criminal investigation into Ray

over the episode because it portrays him as driving participants to stay in the

lodge despite signs all around him that the situation had turned bad.

Investigators are considering bringing charges against Ray and are attempting to

learn about his actions that night in a case that has cast a harsh spotlight on

Ray and his self-help empire.

>

> Howard Bragman, a spokesman for Ray, said many people at the " Spiritual

Warrior " event had " amazing experiences, " and noted that people shouldn't rush

to judgment about what occurred during an ongoing investigation.

>

> " This is only one person out of many at this point, " Bragman said.

>

> According to Bunn, participants were given short notice before they were to

enter the sweat lodge. As they readied for it, they removed their jewelry,

placed prayer pouches filled with nicotine around their necks and ripped out

pages in a journal they kept detailing what in life was holding them back.

>

> A fire heating up rocks outside the sweat lodge consumed the journal pages.

>

> Lightly dressed in bathing suits, shorts and tank tops, they received a

blessing meant to cut away negative energy before crawling into the sweat lodge.

Ray led the group inside and sat next to the opening. A second row formed, their

bodies closest to what would be a pile of heated rocks.

>

> Ray sprinkled them with sandalwood meant for aroma. He led the group in chants

and prayers in an American Indian tongue during the sweat lodge ceremony. He

poured a 5-gallon bucket of water over the rocks, sending a rush of steam

throughout the makeshift structure. That began a two-hour ceremony broken up

into 15- to 20-minute rounds that some later would describe as " profound, "

according to a transcript of a call Ray held with participants days later.

>

> For others, it was terrifying.

>

> Participants began to show signs they were weakening midway through the

ceremony. By the time people started collapsing, Bunn already had crawled to a

spot near the opening of the sweat lodge, praying for the door to stay open as

long as possible between rounds so that she could breathe in fresh air.

>

> At one point, someone lifted up the back of the tent, allowing light into the

otherwise pitch-black tent. Ray demanded to know where the light was coming from

and who committed the " sacrilegious act, " Bunn said. A man, yelling " I can't

take it, I can't breathe, I can't do this " had crawled out, Bunn said.

>

> People weren't physically forced to stay inside but strongly encouraged.

>

> " It was all about mind over matter - you're stronger than your body, " Bunn

said.

>

> Bunn lasted the entire two hours in the sweat lodge, but nearly two dozen

others were hospitalized. Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore,

40, of Milwaukee died upon arrival at a hospital. Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake,

Minn., died more than a week later at a Flagstaff hospital.

>

> No drugs, alcohol nor stimulants were used in the sweat lodge or during the

retreat, Bunn said.

>

> " These people, including myself, were really just searching for a better way

to live and a better life, " she said. " And I commend us for that. "

>

> Looking back, Bunn said it's easy to see how so many people were overcome. No

one was well-hydrated, the sweat lodge was poorly ventilated, no safety tips

were provided and appropriate medical care wasn't available, she said.

>

> As the leader of the " Spiritual Warrior " event, Ray pushed for participants to

go without sleep, enter into altered states of mind through breathing exercises

and meditation, compete in a game in which he played God and fast for 36 hours

during a vision quest, Bunn said.

>

> Sheriff's investigators in Arizona's Yavapai County are treating the deaths as

homicides but have yet to determine the cause. Ray has hired an investigative

team to determine what went wrong, and he vowed to continue with his work

despite criticism.

>

> " I have taken heat for that decision, but if I choose to lock myself in my

home, I am sure I would be criticized for hiding and not practicing what I

preach, " Ray wrote.

>

> Ray has become a self-help superstar by packaging his charismatic personality

and selling wealth. He uses free seminars to recruit people to expensive ones

such as the Sedona retreat that led to the sweat lodge tragedy.

>

> Ray told participants the sweat lodge ceremony would be one of the most

intense experiences of their lives.

>

> As it neared the end, Bunn said some participants found themselves physically

and mentally unable to tend to those around them. After the eighth round, Ray

instructed them to exit the sweat lodge just has they had entered - going

clockwise, a movement meant to symbolize being inside a mother's womb.

>

> What followed was a triage situation with people laid out on tarps and water

being thrown on them to bring down body temperatures. Some people weren't

breathing and had bloodshot eyes. One woman unknowingly walked toward the fire

before someone grabbed her, Bunn said.

>

> Shouts of " we need water, we need water " rang out. " They couldn't fill up the

buckets fast enough, " Bunn said.

>

> Off to the side, a medical doctor participating in the retreat performed CPR

on Shore and Brown with the aid of others. When Bunn asked if she could help

because she knew CPR, she was told to stay back.

>

> Ray was standing about 10 feet away, watching, Bunn said.

>

> " He didn't do anything, he didn't participate in helping, " she said. " He did

nothing. He just stood there. "

>

> Union-Tribune

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote:

>

> It says to me that people feel desperate to find some truth, that they are

willing to push themselves and shell out serious money to try to get an

" ultimate experience, " and that they very badly want to believe the someone can

lead them there. And that someone will take that role and be their guide -

which has happened for hundreds of years.

>

> This guy had co-written an inspirational book about how your reality is

constructed by the quality of your own energy. It sounds like people wanted

something more than just ideas in a book, and he came up with a program to

provide a " really intense experience. "

>

> Sleep deprivation, fasting, sweating - these are ways to bring about intense

and unusual experiences, and have been for centuries.

>

> The perennial search for the ultimate experience and knowledge.

>

> Yes, he was greedy and irresponsible, and perhaps blindly ambitious and

self-important in not consulting with medical professionals in a situation like

this, and not caring about signs of physical exhaustion and collapse.

>

> Yet this situation also reflects the extent of the human hunger for a truth

from themselves, through their own energy and experience. A legitimate concern,

not just sheep.

>

> Maybe the survivors will note that even an " ultimate experience " won't do,

anymore than a really intense drug high.

>

> The collapse of the search isn't due to an ultimate experience.

>

> This is what makes it difficult.

>

> People sense the urgency, sense that they are operating without being grounded

in reality, want to understand and know experientially what is real ...

>

> Yet the dropping away of the person itself, the one who would get to have the

experience, and be there knowing truth -

>

> Aye, there's the rub ...

>

>

> - Dan -

 

As we've discussed, it's not something that can be shared or communicated, is

not a " common experience " in that way.

 

People want things that can be shared, communicated, experienced with others.

And this is the other side of the coin of having one's own experiences and being

there to know truth -- another way to view that, if ya will.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Michael Adamson " <adamson wrote:

>

>

> Another " Pied Piper Guru and Sheeple " story!

> Woman in sweat lodge says people were pushed to stay

>

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/oct/22/transcendence-terror-woman-sw\

eat-lodge/?uniontrib

> By Felicia Fonseca

>

>

> ASSOCIATED PRESS 2:00 a.m. October 22, 2009

> FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - More than 50 followers of spiritual guru James Arthur Ray

had just endured five strenuous days of fasting, sleep-deprivation and

mind-altering breathing exercises when he led them into a sweat lodge ceremony.

>

> It was supposed to be a religious awakening, the culmination of a

$9,000-plus-per-person retreat outside Sedona, Ariz., aimed at helping people

find a new vision for life. But it wasn't long before the ceremony turned into a

terrifying experience.

>

> People were vomiting in the stifling heat, gasping for air, and lying

unconscious on the sand and gravel floor, said participant Beverley Bunn. One

man was burned when he crawled into the rocks, seemingly unaware of what he was

doing, Bunn said. Ultimately, three people would die.

>

> When participants exhibited weakness, Ray urged them to push past it and

chided those who wanted to leave, Bunn said.

>

> " I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up, " Bunn recalls hearing

from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray's response: " Leave her

alone. She'll be dealt with in the next round. "

>

> Bunn, 43, of Texas provided her wrenching description of the sweat lodge

tragedy in an interview with The Associated Press, the first public account from

a participant in the Oct.?8 ceremony.

>

> It also marks a significant revelation in the criminal investigation into Ray

over the episode because it portrays him as driving participants to stay in the

lodge despite signs all around him that the situation had turned bad.

Investigators are considering bringing charges against Ray and are attempting to

learn about his actions that night in a case that has cast a harsh spotlight on

Ray and his self-help empire.

>

> Howard Bragman, a spokesman for Ray, said many people at the " Spiritual

Warrior " event had " amazing experiences, " and noted that people shouldn't rush

to judgment about what occurred during an ongoing investigation.

>

> " This is only one person out of many at this point, " Bragman said.

>

> According to Bunn, participants were given short notice before they were to

enter the sweat lodge. As they readied for it, they removed their jewelry,

placed prayer pouches filled with nicotine around their necks and ripped out

pages in a journal they kept detailing what in life was holding them back.

>

> A fire heating up rocks outside the sweat lodge consumed the journal pages.

>

> Lightly dressed in bathing suits, shorts and tank tops, they received a

blessing meant to cut away negative energy before crawling into the sweat lodge.

Ray led the group inside and sat next to the opening. A second row formed, their

bodies closest to what would be a pile of heated rocks.

>

> Ray sprinkled them with sandalwood meant for aroma. He led the group in chants

and prayers in an American Indian tongue during the sweat lodge ceremony. He

poured a 5-gallon bucket of water over the rocks, sending a rush of steam

throughout the makeshift structure. That began a two-hour ceremony broken up

into 15- to 20-minute rounds that some later would describe as " profound, "

according to a transcript of a call Ray held with participants days later.

>

> For others, it was terrifying.

>

> Participants began to show signs they were weakening midway through the

ceremony. By the time people started collapsing, Bunn already had crawled to a

spot near the opening of the sweat lodge, praying for the door to stay open as

long as possible between rounds so that she could breathe in fresh air.

>

> At one point, someone lifted up the back of the tent, allowing light into the

otherwise pitch-black tent. Ray demanded to know where the light was coming from

and who committed the " sacrilegious act, " Bunn said. A man, yelling " I can't

take it, I can't breathe, I can't do this " had crawled out, Bunn said.

>

> People weren't physically forced to stay inside but strongly encouraged.

>

> " It was all about mind over matter - you're stronger than your body, " Bunn

said.

>

> Bunn lasted the entire two hours in the sweat lodge, but nearly two dozen

others were hospitalized. Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore,

40, of Milwaukee died upon arrival at a hospital. Liz Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake,

Minn., died more than a week later at a Flagstaff hospital.

>

> No drugs, alcohol nor stimulants were used in the sweat lodge or during the

retreat, Bunn said.

>

> " These people, including myself, were really just searching for a better way

to live and a better life, " she said. " And I commend us for that. "

>

> Looking back, Bunn said it's easy to see how so many people were overcome. No

one was well-hydrated, the sweat lodge was poorly ventilated, no safety tips

were provided and appropriate medical care wasn't available, she said.

>

> As the leader of the " Spiritual Warrior " event, Ray pushed for participants to

go without sleep, enter into altered states of mind through breathing exercises

and meditation, compete in a game in which he played God and fast for 36 hours

during a vision quest, Bunn said.

>

> Sheriff's investigators in Arizona's Yavapai County are treating the deaths as

homicides but have yet to determine the cause. Ray has hired an investigative

team to determine what went wrong, and he vowed to continue with his work

despite criticism.

>

> " I have taken heat for that decision, but if I choose to lock myself in my

home, I am sure I would be criticized for hiding and not practicing what I

preach, " Ray wrote.

>

> Ray has become a self-help superstar by packaging his charismatic personality

and selling wealth. He uses free seminars to recruit people to expensive ones

such as the Sedona retreat that led to the sweat lodge tragedy.

>

> Ray told participants the sweat lodge ceremony would be one of the most

intense experiences of their lives.

>

> As it neared the end, Bunn said some participants found themselves physically

and mentally unable to tend to those around them. After the eighth round, Ray

instructed them to exit the sweat lodge just has they had entered - going

clockwise, a movement meant to symbolize being inside a mother's womb.

>

> What followed was a triage situation with people laid out on tarps and water

being thrown on them to bring down body temperatures. Some people weren't

breathing and had bloodshot eyes. One woman unknowingly walked toward the fire

before someone grabbed her, Bunn said.

>

> Shouts of " we need water, we need water " rang out. " They couldn't fill up the

buckets fast enough, " Bunn said.

>

> Off to the side, a medical doctor participating in the retreat performed CPR

on Shore and Brown with the aid of others. When Bunn asked if she could help

because she knew CPR, she was told to stay back.

>

> Ray was standing about 10 feet away, watching, Bunn said.

>

> " He didn't do anything, he didn't participate in helping, " she said. " He did

nothing. He just stood there. "

>

> Union-Tribune

>

 

 

pseudo seekers are only attracted by pseudo Gurus...and opposite...

 

 

 

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote:

>

> It says to me that people feel desperate to find some truth, that

> they are willing to push themselves and shell out serious money to > try to

get an " ultimate experience, " and that they very badly want > to believe the

someone can lead them there.

 

P.S. just the notion of " pushing oneself " suggests a split...

 

> > " It was all about mind over matter - you're stronger than your

> > body, " Bunn said.

 

As though there were a separate " me " and " my body " .

 

Craaaazy, man :-p.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It says to me that people feel desperate to find some truth, that

> > they are willing to push themselves and shell out serious money to > try to

get an " ultimate experience, " and that they very badly want > to believe the

someone can lead them there.

>

> P.S. just the notion of " pushing oneself " suggests a split...

>

> > > " It was all about mind over matter - you're stronger than your

> > > body, " Bunn said.

>

> As though there were a separate " me " and " my body " .

>

> Craaaazy, man :-p.

>

 

 

Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

bullets.

 

We are merely second-hand smoke.

 

 

~A

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote:

>

>

>

> Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> bullets.

>

> We are merely second-hand smoke.

>

>

> ~A

 

What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything 'closer'

than " I Am " , than Being?

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > bullets.

> >

> > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> >

> >

> > ~A

>

> What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything 'closer'

than " I Am " , than Being?

>

 

 

Where's your neti neti now, Tim? That's second hand smoke.

 

~A

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > bullets.

> >

> > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> >

> >

> > ~A

>

>TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

 

P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

the beginning was the word. Before you learned

to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > > bullets.

> > >

> > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > >

> > >

> > > ~A

> >

> > What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> >

>

>

> Where's your neti neti now, Tim? That's second hand smoke.

>

> ~A

 

" My " neti-neti?

 

Didn't know I owned it.

 

Wanna buy it? ;-).

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > > bullets.

> > >

> > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > >

> > >

> > > ~A

> >

> >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

>

> P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> >

>

 

Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

 

But the actuality of being is not a word.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > > > bullets.

> > > >

> > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ~A

> > >

> > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> >

> > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> > >

> >

>

> Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

>

> But the actuality of being is not a word.

 

P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

just immediate perception. Based on IP, thought

creates conceptual reality and CR then blurs IP.

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > > > > bullets.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ~A

> > > >

> > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> > >

> > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

> >

> > But the actuality of being is not a word.

>

> P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

> just immediate perception.

 

.... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate from

your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote:

> >

> > It says to me that people feel desperate to find some truth, that they are

willing to push themselves and shell out serious money to try to get an

" ultimate experience, " and that they very badly want to believe the someone can

lead them there. And that someone will take that role and be their guide -

which has happened for hundreds of years.

> >

> > This guy had co-written an inspirational book about how your reality is

constructed by the quality of your own energy. It sounds like people wanted

something more than just ideas in a book, and he came up with a program to

provide a " really intense experience. "

> >

> > Sleep deprivation, fasting, sweating - these are ways to bring about intense

and unusual experiences, and have been for centuries.

> >

> > The perennial search for the ultimate experience and knowledge.

> >

> > Yes, he was greedy and irresponsible, and perhaps blindly ambitious and

self-important in not consulting with medical professionals in a situation like

this, and not caring about signs of physical exhaustion and collapse.

> >

> > Yet this situation also reflects the extent of the human hunger for a truth

from themselves, through their own energy and experience. A legitimate concern,

not just sheep.

> >

> > Maybe the survivors will note that even an " ultimate experience " won't do,

anymore than a really intense drug high.

> >

> > The collapse of the search isn't due to an ultimate experience.

> >

> > This is what makes it difficult.

> >

> > People sense the urgency, sense that they are operating without being

grounded in reality, want to understand and know experientially what is real ...

> >

> > Yet the dropping away of the person itself, the one who would get to have

the experience, and be there knowing truth -

> >

> > Aye, there's the rub ...

> >

> >

> > - Dan -

>

> As we've discussed, it's not something that can be shared or communicated, is

not a " common experience " in that way.

>

> People want things that can be shared, communicated, experienced with others.

And this is the other side of the coin of having one's own experiences and being

there to know truth -- another way to view that, if ya will.

 

Agreed.

 

The dropping away of the person is the dropping away of the communicator (and

the communicated to, which is the same dynamic).

 

Of course, this is also the dropping away of religion, spirituality, and

realization.

 

 

- Dan -

[Guest guest]

Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch > escreveu:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

> > > >

 

> > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

 

> > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

 

> > > > > bullets.

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > ~A

 

> > > >

 

> > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

 

> > >

 

> > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

 

> > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

 

> > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

 

> > > >

 

> > >

 

> >

 

> > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

 

> >

 

> > But the actuality of being is not a word.

 

>

 

> P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

 

> just immediate perception.

 

 

 

.... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate from

your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

-t-

 

He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to say

that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

-geo-

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > > > > bullets.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ~A

> > > >

> > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> > >

> > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

> >

> > But the actuality of being is not a word.

>

> P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

> just immediate perception. Based on IP, thought

> creates conceptual reality and CR then blurs IP.

 

D: I like this description of a process.

 

You could also say the timeless (IP) constructs time (through

relating contents of IP), time

constructs thought, and thought then chases itself, seeming

to veil the timeless by creating self.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch > escreveu:

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

>

>

>

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

>

> > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

>

> > > > > > bullets.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > ~A

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

>

> > > >

>

> > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

>

> > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

>

> > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

>

> > > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

>

> > >

>

> > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

>

> >

>

> > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

>

> > just immediate perception.

>

>

>

> ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate from

your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

> -t-

>

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to say

that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

> -geo-

 

Oh good.

 

Let's argue about what he is really trying to say.

 

LOL.

 

By the way, he's saying there is no existence for perception to be outside of -

until you construct a thought about existence.

 

 

- Dan -

[Guest guest]

Em 23/10/2009 14:59, dan330033 < dan330033 > escreveu:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. escreveu:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>  

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

>

 

> > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

 

>

 

> > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

 

>

 

> > > > > > bullets.

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > > > ~A

 

>

 

> > > > >

 

>

 

> > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

 

>

 

> > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

 

>

 

> > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

 

>

 

> > > > >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

 

>

 

> > just immediate perception.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate from

your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

 

> -t-

 

>

 

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to say

that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

 

> -geo-

 

 

 

Oh good.

 

 

 

Let's argue about what he is really trying to say.

 

 

 

LOL.

 

 

 

By the way, he's saying there is no existence for perception to be outside of -

until you construct a thought about existence.

 

 

 

- Dan -

 

Yes, he thinks existence is something verbal and thoughts are external to it in

order to construct it...

-geo-

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

>

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing.

 

Then what is it... being dead? :-p.

 

All these words are artificially dividing things, Geo. Perception, being,

existing... as though these were somehow all 'objective' things that exist apart

from each other.

 

> He is trying to say that perception is happening outside

> existence. :>)

 

If so, he hasn't a clue what he's talking about :-p.

[Guest guest]

Em 23/10/2009 14:57, dan330033 < dan330033 > escreveu:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

 

> > > >

 

> > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

 

> > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

 

> > > > > bullets.

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > >

 

> > > > > ~A

 

> > > >

 

> > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there anything

'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

 

> > >

 

> > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

 

> > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

 

> > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

 

> > > >

 

> > >

 

> >

 

> > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

 

> >

 

> > But the actuality of being is not a word.

 

>

 

> P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

 

> just immediate perception. Based on IP, thought

 

> creates conceptual reality and CR then blurs IP.

 

 

 

D: I like this description of a process.

 

 

 

You could also say the timeless (IP) constructs time (through

 

relating contents of IP), time

 

constructs thought, and thought then chases itself, seeming

 

to veil the timeless by creating self.

 

 

geo> But he did not say that. He never mentioned self. To him self and existence

are the same.

[Guest guest]

Em 23/10/2009 15:07, Tim G. < fewtch > escreveu:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

 

>

 

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing.

 

 

 

Then what is it... being dead? :-p.

 

 

 

All these words are artificially dividing things, Geo. Perception, being,

existing... as though these were somehow all 'objective' things that exist apart

from each other.

 

 

 

> He is trying to say that perception is happening outside

 

> existence. :>)

 

 

 

If so, he hasn't a clue what he's talking about :-p.

 

geo> He thinks he does. :>)

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch > escreveu:

>

>

>

>

>

>

Â

>

>

>

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

>

> > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

>

> > > > > > bullets.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > ~A

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

>

> > > >

>

> > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

>

> > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

>

> > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

>

> > > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

>

> > >

>

> > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

>

> >

>

> > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

>

> > just immediate perception.

>

>

>

> ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate from

your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

> -t-

>

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to say

that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

> -geo-

>

P: )) You missed it by a mile. I didn't say that. immediate

perception happens prior and outside language and concepts.

Being and existence and all abstract nouns have no connection

whatsoever with immediate perception.

i

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , geo <inandor@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch@ > escreveu:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Â

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

> >

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> >

> > > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> >

> > > > > > > bullets.

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > ~A

> >

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> >

> > > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> >

> > > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> >

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

> >

> > > just immediate perception.

> >

> >

> >

> > ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate

from your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

> > -t-

> >

> > He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to

say that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

> > -geo-

> >

> P: )) You missed it by a mile. I didn't say that. immediate

> perception happens prior and outside language and concepts.

> Being and existence and all abstract nouns have no connection

> whatsoever with immediate perception.

> i

>

 

 

Hm, Pete,

 

Immediate perception means there is no time lag involved, or did you mean

'direct perception' in which there is no thought involved ?

 

Like the following link is demonstrating:

 

http://ahsmail.uwaterloo.ca/kin356/illusion/direct.html

 

Werner

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Nisargadatta , geo <inandor@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch@ > escreveu:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Â

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

> > >

> > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

> > >

> > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

> > >

> > > > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

> > >

> > > > > > > > bullets.

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > ~A

> > >

> > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

> > >

> > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

> > >

> > > > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

> > >

> > > > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

> > >

> > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

> > >

> > > > just immediate perception.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate

from your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

> > > -t-

> > >

> > > He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to

say that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

> > > -geo-

> > >

> > P: )) You missed it by a mile. I didn't say that. immediate

> > perception happens prior and outside language and concepts.

> > Being and existence and all abstract nouns have no connection

> > whatsoever with immediate perception.

> > i

> >

>

>

> Hm, Pete,

>

> Immediate perception means there is no time lag involved, or did you mean

'direct perception' in which there is no thought involved ?

>

> Like the following link is demonstrating:

>

> http://ahsmail.uwaterloo.ca/kin356/illusion/direct.html

>

> Werner

 

P: Immediate means not mediated by any other influence. In

the case of perception by thoughts and concepts.

>

[Guest guest]

-

cerosoul

Nisargadatta

Friday, October 23, 2009 4:14 PM

Re: Woman in sweat lodge says people were pushed to

stay

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , geo <inandor wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> Em 23/10/2009 14:47, Tim G. < fewtch > escreveu:

>

>

>

>

>

>

Â

>

>

>

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " wrote:

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " wrote:

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote:

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > Well... I suppose everyone there has now experienced first-hand

>

> > > > > > what separation from the body is. And how one sometimes sweats

>

> > > > > > bullets.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > We are merely second-hand smoke.

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > >

>

> > > > > > ~A

>

> > > > >

>

> > > > >TIm: What do you mean, we're merely second-hand smoke? Is there

> > > > >anything 'closer' than " I Am " , than Being?

>

> > > >

>

> > > > P: Yes, words are closer, and came first. In

>

> > > > the beginning was the word. Before you learned

>

> > > > to speak, you had no idea what " I am " or " Being " was.

>

> > > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Certainly so. Those words would have made no sense.

>

> > >

>

> > > But the actuality of being is not a word.

>

> >

>

> > P: There is no actuality of being, dear chap,

>

> > just immediate perception.

>

>

>

> ... which is the actuality of being. Do ya really think you're separate

> from your perceptions, i.e. that there is a perceiver?

> -t-

>

> He is trying to say that perception is not being/existing. He is trying to

> say that perception is happening outside existence. :>)

> -geo-

>

P: )) You missed it by a mile. I didn't say that. immediate

perception happens prior and outside language and concepts.

Being and existence and all abstract nouns have no connection

whatsoever with immediate perception.

 

geo> hmmm...interesting. Perception without being! and...being as a

concept!