Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. the feeling about (having) " to control " outside there....maybe arise within a mind which isn't stable.....which is missing maybe some better times etc....or maybe only some inner peace.... Means, maybe it is rising from the need to " control " this restless mind......means, more of a need to control the inner side.....than the outside Even if inner & outer are the same. ..... What would be there to " control " ....for a liberated entity....means, for the Self.....? maybe Nothing ..... only few words... ..... Marc Ps: do you realy want to move mountains?....why for?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? > > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. > > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " > > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. > > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. > > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. > Your post seems more to be teaching then asking questions. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? > > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. > > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " > > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. > > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. > > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. > The unambiguous answer is " yes – most definitely. " Are you satisfied? You should be! Your own teacher says: " blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed " If so, you should seek out a guru to give you the answers that you desire and then believe him. If not, what you call outside yourself is actually entirely within yourself. Although you look at an object (which might be there - or might be a dream) you are in fact creating a representation of it within your mind using bits of filtered information. This is why you only see part of the available data. You will normally only see a fraction of the outside surface, a fraction of the light frequencies and a fraction of its lifespan. And this pattern of vagueness is repeated for all the lesser senses. Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I like to think of that question as being rather subtle. Just as you cannot take a 5 year old and teach them calculus without first giving them the fundamentals of basic calculation, so it would appear to be with other subjects -- including the nature of the self and the universe. As only what is truely within ourselves can be immediately, directly and entirely perceived it seems natural that this is where the fundamentals of certainty start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , Marc <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? (.b b.b.) there is no such thing as choice. there is no such thing as a " you " . of what good..or of what sense would choice be? > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. (.b b.b) from the beginning there is no mountain to move. from the beginning there is no " you " . a lot of people have apparently said a lot of things. it's a miracle that anyone would ever buy any of it. there are no " other " people. what difference could their illusory utterings be? > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " (.b b.b.) don't listen to either Jesus nor Nisargadatta. they only exist in the mind you consider as your own. that's the last would be thing that one should pay attention to. let it all go. in the end..as in the beginning... " you " have no choice anyway. > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. (.b b.b.) do you believe there is any more " reality... in what you conceive of as " your " life? actually it's even more of a game than that video trick. you're not really thinking. but then..there is no " you " . so....that makes a sort of sense then. > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. (.b b.b.) " you " are neither sitting in front of a screen.. nor are you " in control " .. nor is there a " someone else " . this is all faulty first premise. > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. (.b b.b.) no one knows who they are. are you kidding? you place to high a value on your preconceived notions. they mean nothing and belong to no one. point of view? no... all " you " s and all " me " s ARE the View..(not the TV show). > the feeling about (having) " to control " outside there....maybe arise within a mind which isn't stable.....which is missing maybe some better times etc....or maybe only some inner peace.... (.b b.b.) there is no individual mind that has or does not have " stability. the perceived such " mind " IS delusional instability itself. > Means, maybe it is rising from the need to " control " this restless mind......means, more of a need to control the inner side.....than the outside > Even if inner & outer are the same. (.b b.b.) " sameness is a concept. as is " diversity " . non-duality excludes the possibility of either/or..both/neither.. do not rely on such silly notions. " you " are nothing more than such false notion. it's a self created and self perpetuating trap. and unbelievably there is no " self " who you gonna call? ..b b.b. > What would be there to " control " ....for a liberated entity....means, for the Self.....? > > maybe Nothing > > .... > > only few words... > > .... > > Marc > > > Ps: do you realy want to move mountains?....why for?.... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? > > > > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. > > > > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " > > > > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. > > > > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. > > > > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. > > > > The unambiguous answer is " yes – most definitely. " Are you satisfied? You should be! Your own teacher says: > > " blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed " > > If so, you should seek out a guru to give you the answers that you desire and then believe him. > > If not, what you call outside yourself is actually entirely within yourself. Although you look at an object (which might be there - or might be a dream) you are in fact creating a representation of it within your mind using bits of filtered information. This is why you only see part of the available data. You will normally only see a fraction of the outside surface, a fraction of the light frequencies and a fraction of its lifespan. And this pattern of vagueness is repeated for all the lesser senses. > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I like to think of that question as being rather subtle. Just as you cannot take a 5 year old and teach them calculus without first giving them the fundamentals of basic calculation, so it would appear to be with other subjects -- including the nature of the self and the universe. As only what is truely within ourselves can be immediately, directly and entirely perceived it seems natural that this is where the fundamentals of certainty start. from " Thank you for Smoking " ..a great flick.. the following " argument " goes on between father and son.. while attending a carnival together and enjoying a hot dog and soda: Nick Naylor: " that's the beauty of argument.. if you argue correctly..you're never wrong. " Joey Naylor: " so what happens when you're wrong? " Nick Naylor: " whoa, Joey I'm never wrong. " Joey Naylor: " but you can't always be right... " Nick Naylor: " well, if it's your job to be right..then you're never wrong. " Joey Naylor: " but what if you are wrong? " " Nick Naylor: " ok, let's say that you're defending chocolate.. and i'm defending vanilla... now if i were to say to you:.. 'vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream'.. you'd say... " Joey Naylor: " no, chocolate is. " Nick Naylor: " exactly, but you can't win that argument... so, i'll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all.. and the all of ice-cream, do you? " Joey Naylor: " it's the best ice-cream, I wouldn't order any other. " Nick Naylor: " oh! So it's all chocolate for you is it? " Joey Naylor: " yes, chocolate is all I need. " Nick Naylor: " well..i need more than chocolate.. and for that matter i need more than vanilla. i believe that we need freedom. and choice when it comes to our ice-cream... and that Joey Naylor, that is the definition of liberty. " Joey Naylor: " but that's not what we're talking about. " Nick Naylor: " ah! but that's what I'm talking about. " Joey Naylor: " ...but you didn't prove that vanilla was the best... " Nick Naylor: " i didn't have to. i proved that you're wrong.. and if you're wrong i'm right. " Joey Naylor: " but you still didn't convince me " Nick Naylor: it's that i'm not after you. I'm after them.[points into the crowd]. note: (dad Nick is a spokesman for the Tobacco Lobby) what a job! but he always came up smilin'.. even in front of Congress.. while all other Big T. bigwigs.. went " down the tubes " needing to be right while being wrong. there's a proper way to do this: proper argument. and it needn't be carried on " all day long " being right or wrong has nothing to do with it whatsoever. gotta love it! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? > > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. > > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " > > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. > > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. > > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. > It is not an answer you seek. You are hoping to validate the existence of your own separateness. You are attracted to non-duality because you think that it will improve your perceived circumstances. That's alright. Every sense of self does that. Every searcher is looking for something to relieve the fear and pain that comes with being an identified entity. If you set your sails in this belief system.....you will come to the edge of the known world. And the outcome will not be anything close to what you imagined. Start your journey knowing that no one...... anywhere......knows anymore than you do right now about all things spiritual. It's all make believe. Bon voyage. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I > like to think of that question as being rather subtle. > -methus- > A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of the conceptual mind. If " objects " have no separate reality......how substantial is the repository of the conceptual construct? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 "The unborn cannot know the born", -bah- It is the other way around. Only the unborn knows. Only the unborn sees the born - nothing else. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I like to think of that question as being rather subtle. -methus- It is not subtle at all. Nothing, absolutely nothing has existence " outside " of the only place there is. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > I had a question that hopefully some of you could help answer: > > > > Do we have control over what we are seeing outside ourselves? > > > > When I think of the teachings of Jesus and him saying, " You can do all these things and more. " (referring to his miracles) it makes me think that we somehow have control over what we are witnessing. That we can change things with our minds. We can see a mountain we don't like and make it disappear just by thinking it. > > > > However, when I read some of Nisargatta's teachings, it comes across as being, " there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do, there is nothing to be, just keep your eyes open and see. " > > > > This way of thinking comes across as life being similar to a character in a video game where no points are accumulated. The character doesn't need to kill bad guys or collect coins or go to another level, etc. He can do whatever he wants, explore new sites and sounds and people, etc. > > > > Even more so, you aren't the one using the controller to play the character on the screen, " someone " else is. You are simply sitting in front of the screen, watching the character from his perspective (similar to first person shooter games), you don't have the controller in your hands, and you " witness " all the adventures that he goes on. > > > > So what is your point of view on this? And please do not answer with a non-answer. You know who you are. " The unborn cannot know the born " , " There is no you, there is only the Absolute. " " There is nothing, yet everything " , etc. > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > You are hoping to validate the existence > of your own separateness. like you are by answering? as if there were something other that you could inform? you big silly. > You are attracted to non-duality > because you think that it will improve > your perceived circumstances. > That's alright. it's gotta be alright is the thought if your hung up on it enough.. to try and explicate it's nature..even to your " self " . have you impressed that same " self " yet? > Every sense of self does that. > Every searcher is looking for > something to relieve the fear > and pain that comes with being > an identified entity. there are " many'? hmmm? that is likely part and parcel.. of the fear and loathing of all illusion. it's the sneakin' hunch it's delusional process. good hunch! > If you set your sails in this belief > system.....you will come to the edge > of the known world. > And the outcome will not be anything > close to what you imagined. oh dear! it's not all that poetic at all. it's quite common and actually more normal than normality. but it's fun to be poetical isn't it? even the " self " that is not the whatever-i-am.. falls prey to that gambit. and yes,, it impresses the hell out of " me " too. but i find no heaven there either. it's a funny bugaboo. > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > right now about all things spiritual. > > It's all make believe. > > > Bon voyage. > > > toombaru io believe you about the make believe. but believing doesn't " gat 'you'anywhere.. even on a supposed " journey " . in the unknowing spirit of the knowing that: " you " know what " i " mean. and it doesn't mean a " thing " . :-) ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru > Nisargadatta > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:03 PM > Re: What is the point? > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I > > like to think of that question as being rather subtle. > > -methus- > > > > A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of the > conceptual mind. > > If " objects " have no separate reality......how substantial is the repository > of the conceptual construct? > > toombaru > > You are not seeing. The conceptual mind has some existencial reality? > -geo- > As much as your dreams at night. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru > > Nisargadatta > > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:03 PM > > Re: What is the point? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I > > > like to think of that question as being rather subtle. > > > -methus- > > > > > > > A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of the > > conceptual mind. > > > > If " objects " have no separate reality......how substantial is the repository > > of the conceptual construct? > > > > toombaru > > > > You are not seeing. The conceptual mind has some existencial reality? > > -geo- > > > > > As much as your dreams at night. > > > > toombaru is this to say that it is your belief that a nonentity.. posesses the capability of " dreaming " ? and that furthermore those dreams have no existential reality.. and are derived from the nonexistent mind... of the unsubstantial " dreamer " which by another " name " .. is designated as the nonexistent " entity " ? or what are " you " trying to say? doesn't matter. " you " nor the " dreaming " nor " i " the querying creature " .. have any substantive actuality. so... what the hell is going on? that is...really or not so much. not even " nothing " answers this. nothing " is just another non-concept of the nonentity. it's not a who in whoville.. more like a zombie in zombieland. that is to say that is the guess.. of the no one here..or there..or anywhrewhere. or like the beatnicks said: it's all nowhere man! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 - toombaru Nisargadatta Friday, November 27, 2009 2:03 PM Re: What is the point? Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I > like to think of that question as being rather subtle. > -methus- > A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of the conceptual mind. If " objects " have no separate reality......how substantial is the repository of the conceptual construct? toombaru You are not seeing. The conceptual mind has some existencial reality? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 - toombaru Nisargadatta Friday, November 27, 2009 3:24 PM Re: What is the point? Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru > Nisargadatta > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:03 PM > Re: What is the point? > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I > > like to think of that question as being rather subtle. > > -methus- > > > > A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of > the > conceptual mind. > > If " objects " have no separate reality......how substantial is the > repository > of the conceptual construct? > > toombaru > > You are not seeing. The conceptual mind has some existencial reality? > -geo- > As much as your dreams at night. toombaru You said: " A " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of the conceptual mind. " But the conceptual mind also has no reality...so " mountain " or a " river " has no separate existential reality outside of what? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum wrote: > > The unambiguous answer is " yes – most definitely. " Are you satisfied? You should be! Your own teacher says: > > " blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed " > > If so, you should seek out a guru to give you the answers that you desire and then believe him. > > If not, what you call outside yourself is actually entirely within yourself. Although you look at an object (which might be there - or might be a dream) you are in fact creating a representation of it within your mind using bits of filtered information. This is why you only see part of the available data. You will normally only see a fraction of the outside surface, a fraction of the light frequencies and a fraction of its lifespan. And this pattern of vagueness is repeated for all the lesser senses. > > Now you could argue all day about whether that object actually exists. I like to think of that question as being rather subtle. Just as you cannot take a 5 year old and teach them calculus without first giving them the fundamentals of basic calculation, so it would appear to be with other subjects -- including the nature of the self and the universe. As only what is truely within ourselves can be immediately, directly and entirely perceived it seems natural that this is where the fundamentals of certainty start. > Not sure how to interpret this first part of your post: " If so, you should seek out a guru to give you the answers that you desire and then believe him. " I guess what I'm getting at is did Nisargadatta feel he had a choice or control in living the life he did? We could talk all day about his philosophy of what reality is and what it isn't, but we know he had a wife, we know he had children, we know he sold cigarettes and we know he visited his " teacher " 's grave on a daily basis. While he preached " he never was and neither are we " , he still carried out what most of us perceive as being a life. He awoke in the morning, took a shit, took a shower, ate, interacted with others, etc. I remember reading about one instance where he was talking about his " death " and how he felt like clapping because he was happy he accomplished his " goal " . Was his " goal " to simply realize that what he saw on the outside was just a reflection of what was on the inside? That in reality, his whole life was just to interact with himself/its self? Quote- " If not, what you call outside yourself is actually entirely within yourself. Although you look at an object (which might be there - or might be a dream) you are in fact creating a representation of it within your mind using bits of filtered information. " -methusalum So, in that realm of thinking, if what I see on the outside is a reflection of my mind's thoughts, desires, fears, etc., the way to " change " the outer is to acknowledge that what I am seeing represents my current state of mind? " Making peace " with any strife I come upon on the outside, helps me to acknowledge that I, in fact, am making peace with myself. For example, someone who is living what we would call " a life of hell " where everything seems " horrible " is simply that person's state of mind that he views everything as being separate and everything sucks and he is interacting with what reflects that. He can " change " the dream or make it " better " by realizing his own mind and way of thinking is in fact the cause of his " living hell " . Is that what you mean, methusalum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > It is not an answer you seek. > You are hoping to validate the existence > of your own separateness. > You are attracted to non-duality > because you think that it will improve > your perceived circumstances. > That's alright. > Every sense of self does that. > Every searcher is looking for > something to relieve the fear > and pain that comes with being > an identified entity. > If you set your sails in this belief > system.....you will come to the edge > of the known world. > And the outcome will not be anything > close to what you imagined. > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > right now about all things spiritual. > > It's all make believe. > > > Bon voyage. > > > toombaru > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > of your own separateness. > > You are attracted to non-duality > > because you think that it will improve > > your perceived circumstances. > > That's alright. > > Every sense of self does that. > > Every searcher is looking for > > something to relieve the fear > > and pain that comes with being > > an identified entity. > > If you set your sails in this belief > > system.....you will come to the edge > > of the known world. > > And the outcome will not be anything > > close to what you imagined. > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > Yup. That's about it. Except the there is no 'I " doing it. The I amness appears within that process. It's funny as hell when that is seen. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > > of your own separateness. > > > You are attracted to non-duality > > > because you think that it will improve > > > your perceived circumstances. > > > That's alright. > > > Every sense of self does that. > > > Every searcher is looking for > > > something to relieve the fear > > > and pain that comes with being > > > an identified entity. > > > If you set your sails in this belief > > > system.....you will come to the edge > > > of the known world. > > > And the outcome will not be anything > > > close to what you imagined. > > > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > > > > > Yup. > That's about it. > Except the there is no 'I " doing it. > The I amness appears within that process. > > > It's funny as hell when that is seen. > > > > toombaru > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > > > of your own separateness. > > > > You are attracted to non-duality > > > > because you think that it will improve > > > > your perceived circumstances. > > > > That's alright. > > > > Every sense of self does that. > > > > Every searcher is looking for > > > > something to relieve the fear > > > > and pain that comes with being > > > > an identified entity. > > > > If you set your sails in this belief > > > > system.....you will come to the edge > > > > of the known world. > > > > And the outcome will not be anything > > > > close to what you imagined. > > > > > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > > > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > > > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > > > > > > > > > Yup. > > That's about it. > > Except the there is no 'I " doing it. > > The I amness appears within that process. > > > > > > It's funny as hell when that is seen. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > This is a nondual world, after all. Arseholes and harmony. Sounds like a good name for a band. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > > > of your own separateness. > > > > You are attracted to non-duality > > > > because you think that it will improve > > > > your perceived circumstances. > > > > That's alright. > > > > Every sense of self does that. > > > > Every searcher is looking for > > > > something to relieve the fear > > > > and pain that comes with being > > > > an identified entity. > > > > If you set your sails in this belief > > > > system.....you will come to the edge > > > > of the known world. > > > > And the outcome will not be anything > > > > close to what you imagined. > > > > > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > > > anywhere......knows anymore than you do > > > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > > > > > > > > > Yup. > > That's about it. > > Except the there is no 'I " doing it. > > The I amness appears within that process. > > > > > > It's funny as hell when that is seen. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > Everything continues as before the Understanding. But now there is no persona in the center of the storm taking credit or blame. Assholes continue the play their part.......but once personal volition is factored out of the conceptual dream of separation they are seen in an entirely different light. Mostly they are simply seen as frightened or wounded. Your own reaction to them becomes tempered with a deep understanding that they are reacting to the pain that they have endured. Life beats the hell out of everybody. Sometimes you reach out......sometimes you turn away. ........knowing that your own reactions are also determined by your encoded mnemonic tapestry. And.......it all becomes the most delightful-thrilling open-ended journey into The Great-Unknown-Unknowable. One finds its self surfing the moment.....falling fast into What's Next. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain wrote: > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > > > > > > Everything continues as before the Understanding. > But now there is no persona in the center of the storm taking credit or blame. > Assholes continue the play their part.......but once personal volition is factored out of the conceptual dream of separation they are seen in an entirely different light. > Mostly they are simply seen as frightened or wounded. > Your own reaction to them becomes tempered with a deep understanding that they are reacting to the pain that they have endured. > Life beats the hell out of everybody. > Sometimes you reach out......sometimes you turn away. > .......knowing that your own reactions are also determined by your encoded mnemonic tapestry. > And.......it all becomes the most delightful-thrilling open-ended journey into The Great-Unknown-Unknowable. > One finds its self surfing the moment.....falling fast into What's Next. > > > > toombaru > So knowing all of this and that there will always be what we perceive as " good " and " bad " in the outside world, does one's reaction to a situation or person lead the journey in a certain direction? I know Nisargadatta said there was no Karma but it would seem to me once you understand you are part of everything, you would not feel a need to harm or cause ill will towards others. That this deeper understanding and different treatment towards the outside world would cause a shift in what the " I " experiences? Or is the shift simply in the way that we perceive the outside world? That the change in perception is the only change that occurs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta, " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > > > of your own separateness. > > > > You are attracted to non-duality > > > > because you think that it will improve > > > > your perceived circumstances. > > > > That's alright. > > > > Every sense of self does that. > > > > Every searcher is looking for > > > > something to relieve the fear > > > > and pain that comes with being > > > > an identified entity. > > > > If you set your sails in this belief > > > > system.....you will come to the edge > > > > of the known world. > > > > And the outcome will not be anything > > > > close to what you imagined. > > > > > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > > > anywhere.... ..knows anymore than you do > > > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > > > > > > > > > Yup. > > That's about it. > > Except the there is no 'I " doing it. > > The I amness appears within that process. > > > > > > It's funny as hell when that is seen. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > Everything continues as before the Understanding. But now there is no persona in the center of the storm taking credit or blame. Assholes continue the play their part.......but once personal volition is factored out of the conceptual dream of separation they are seen in an entirely different light. Mostly they are simply seen as frightened or wounded. Your own reaction to them becomes tempered with a deep understanding that they are reacting to the pain that they have endured. Life beats the hell out of everybody. Sometimes you reach out......sometimes you turn away. ........knowing that your own reactions are also determined by your encoded mnemonic tapestry. And.......it all becomes the most delightful-thrillin g open-ended journey into The Great-Unknown- Unknowable. One finds its self surfing the moment.....falling fast into What's Next. toombaru now, toombaru....please tell us also about this appearent " cowards " .... what is this their pain about?... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > > > > > This is a nondual world, after all. > > Arseholes and harmony. Sounds like a good name for a band. > > ~A > They could profess to be devil worshiping Christian nihilists in a heavy metal band that plays folk music. That would cause a few heads to be scratched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Nisargadatta , " bahestx3 " <bahestx3 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > > > > > > > > > > > Everything continues as before the Understanding. > > But now there is no persona in the center of the storm taking credit or blame. > > Assholes continue the play their part.......but once personal volition is factored out of the conceptual dream of separation they are seen in an entirely different light. > > Mostly they are simply seen as frightened or wounded. > > Your own reaction to them becomes tempered with a deep understanding that they are reacting to the pain that they have endured. > > Life beats the hell out of everybody. > > Sometimes you reach out......sometimes you turn away. > > .......knowing that your own reactions are also determined by your encoded mnemonic tapestry. > > And.......it all becomes the most delightful-thrilling open-ended journey into The Great-Unknown-Unknowable. > > One finds its self surfing the moment.....falling fast into What's Next. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > So knowing all of this and that there will always be what we perceive as " good " and " bad " in the outside world, does one's reaction to a situation or person lead the journey in a certain direction? Once the Understanding dawns.....there are no directions and no separate entities to take them. Every'thing' is relative to the sense of self......and there isn't one. It's like trying to picture a location exactly two hundred miles South of earth. There are no separate " reactions " in a world where everything is falling into everything. > > I know Nisargadatta said there was no Karma There is no karma because there is no one to have it. > but it would seem to me once you understand you are part of everything, you would not feel a need to harm or cause ill will towards others. " You " are not part of " everything " . The entire conceptual overlay emerges within the neurons of the frontal cortex of human beings very much like the nighttime dreams swirl out of the brain's accumulated memories. Your personal totality is merely the brain cells simmering in the darkness.......wondering what in the hell is going on " out there " ........when in truth everything that can ever be known is going on " in there " . > That this deeper understanding and different treatment towards the outside world would cause a shift in what the " I " experiences? No longer is the I amess seen as the geo-centric center of the universe. And neither is the perceptual input seen as one's essential self. The sense of self...(little s self or big s self).... is seen as irrelevant. And all that remains is this scintillating-edgeless Garden of Wow. And it is known that that is all there is. Or is the shift simply in the way that we perceive the outside world? That the change in perception is the only change that occurs? > Yes. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , Marc <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta, " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@ .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " bahestx3 " <bahestx3@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " toombaru " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not an answer you seek. > > > > > You are hoping to validate the existence > > > > > of your own separateness. > > > > > You are attracted to non-duality > > > > > because you think that it will improve > > > > > your perceived circumstances. > > > > > That's alright. > > > > > Every sense of self does that. > > > > > Every searcher is looking for > > > > > something to relieve the fear > > > > > and pain that comes with being > > > > > an identified entity. > > > > > If you set your sails in this belief > > > > > system.....you will come to the edge > > > > > of the known world. > > > > > And the outcome will not be anything > > > > > close to what you imagined. > > > > > > > > > > Start your journey knowing that no one...... > > > > > anywhere.... ..knows anymore than you do > > > > > right now about all things spiritual. > > > > > > > > > > It's all make believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bon voyage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the acknowledgment that I am basically living a life that interacts with itself will lead me on different journey? Everything I touch, feel, taste, see is nothing more than my mind wanting to engage with itself? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yup. > > > That's about it. > > > Except the there is no 'I " doing it. > > > The I amness appears within that process. > > > > > > > > > It's funny as hell when that is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > So does more harmony arise once this is known or do I still have to deal with my mind wanting to put assholes in the " outside world " that I have to deal with day to day? > > > > Everything continues as before the Understanding. > But now there is no persona in the center of the storm taking credit or blame. > Assholes continue the play their part.......but once personal volition is factored out of the conceptual dream of separation they are seen in an entirely different light. > Mostly they are simply seen as frightened or wounded. > Your own reaction to them becomes tempered with a deep understanding that they are reacting to the pain that they have endured. > Life beats the hell out of everybody. > Sometimes you reach out......sometimes you turn away. > .......knowing that your own reactions are also determined by your encoded mnemonic tapestry. > And.......it all becomes the most delightful-thrillin g open-ended journey into The Great-Unknown- Unknowable. > One finds its self surfing the moment.....falling fast into What's Next. > > toombaru > > > > now, toombaru....please tell us also about this appearent " cowards " .... > > what is this their pain about?... > > > > > Marc > " Cowardice " implies volition.....and there isn't any. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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