Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > -geo- > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of itself. Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought with awareess. One day you will grasp it, Geo ... Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > -geo- if Awareness is only aware of Itself through It's creation.. it is that ONLY the created is aware of it's creator. the Creator is not aware of Itself. it needn't and doesn't sink to q level of awareness. it leaves that sort of petty talent to that which emanates from It: as the created with it's own ever renewing promises.. which dissolve immediately upon any attainment thereof. as soon as the created finds itself... in possession of any of it's coveted prizes.. like it's discovery of some new level of Understanding.. it melts in it's hands as the " now unsought and unneeded " .. and new Vistas appear as Promised Goals. the Creator is without levels or promises. It is all and every both imaginable and unimaginable. the Creator has nothing to seek or be aware of at all. within the Vastness.. all terms of Vastness lose meaning. Form and Function and all Qualification.. lose any significance Here. the marchings of the Caesars.. the greatest and most abstract thoughts.. of philosophers..mathematicians..and enlightened " beings " .. are Here less than the playthings of infant animals. but kids will play grownups won't we? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > wwoehr > Nisargadatta > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM > Re: X-X > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > -geo- > > > > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. > > It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of itself. > > Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. > > Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought with > awareess. > > One day you will grasp it, Geo ... > > Werner > > What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? > -geo- > Did I ? Read again ... Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 - wwoehr Nisargadatta Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM Re: X-X Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > -geo- > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of itself. Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought with awareess. One day you will grasp it, Geo ... Werner What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > wwoehr > Nisargadatta > Monday, November 30, 2009 8:09 AM > Re: X-X > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > wwoehr > > Nisargadatta > > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM > > Re: X-X > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. > > > > It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of > > itself. > > > > Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. > > > > Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought > > with > > awareess. > > > > One day you will grasp it, Geo ... > > > > Werner > > > > What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? > > -geo- > > > > Did I ? > > Read again ... > > Werner > > I said awareness is NOT aware of itself except through the manifested. Read > again > -geo- > Ah ok, thanks Geo, I did misunderstand you and I thought you were (stubbornly) convinced that awareness is aware of itself. Now it is a satisfying outcome. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 - wwoehr Nisargadatta Monday, November 30, 2009 8:09 AM Re: X-X Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > wwoehr > Nisargadatta > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM > Re: X-X > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > -geo- > > > > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. > > It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of > itself. > > Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. > > Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought > with > awareess. > > One day you will grasp it, Geo ... > > Werner > > What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? > -geo- > Did I ? Read again ... Werner I said awareness is NOT aware of itself except through the manifested. Read again -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > wwoehr > > Nisargadatta > > Monday, November 30, 2009 8:09 AM > > Re: X-X > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > wwoehr > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM > > > Re: X-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. > > > > > > It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of > > > itself. > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. > > > > > > Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought > > > with > > > awareess. > > > > > > One day you will grasp it, Geo ... > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? > > > -geo- > > > > > > > Did I ? > > > > Read again ... > > > > Werner > > > > I said awareness is NOT aware of itself except through the manifested. Read > > again > > -geo- > > > > > Ah ok, thanks Geo, > > I did misunderstand you and I thought you were (stubbornly) convinced that awareness is aware of itself. > > Now it is a satisfying outcome. > > Werner > U2 are so funny. You keep saying the same things, and yet you misunderstand one another. Keeps the awareness flowing, eh? ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > wwoehr > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, November 30, 2009 8:09 AM > > > Re: X-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > wwoehr > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:49 AM > > > > Re: X-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > > > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Haha, being stubborn isn't a good advisor. > > > > > > > > It is thought which creates the illusion of awareness being aware of > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > Thought says 'I am aware of being aware'. > > > > > > > > Most people, evens gurus who should know better, are confusing thought > > > > with > > > > awareess. > > > > > > > > One day you will grasp it, Geo ... > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > What you are saying is that there is no awareness except as thought? > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > Did I ? > > > > > > Read again ... > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > I said awareness is NOT aware of itself except through the manifested. Read > > > again > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > Ah ok, thanks Geo, > > > > I did misunderstand you and I thought you were (stubbornly) convinced that awareness is aware of itself. > > > > Now it is a satisfying outcome. > > > > Werner > > > > > U2 are so funny. You keep saying the same things, and yet you misunderstand one another. Why haven't you sent us a motherly warning ? I gratefully even would have ignored your usual hugs ! Werner > > Keeps the awareness flowing, eh? > > ~A > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 - BobN Nisargadatta Monday, November 30, 2009 7:56 AM Re: X-X Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > -geo- if Awareness is only aware of Itself through It's creation.. it is that ONLY the created is aware of it's creator. geo> What a fertile imagination. Is/can the created be aware of anything? Are wooden dolls aware of something? ======= the Creator is not aware of Itself. it needn't and doesn't sink to q level of awareness. it leaves that sort of petty talent to that which emanates from It: as the created with it's own ever renewing promises.. which dissolve immediately upon any attainment thereof. as soon as the created finds itself... in possession of any of it's coveted prizes.. like it's discovery of some new level of Understanding.. it melts in it's hands as the " now unsought and unneeded " .. and new Vistas appear as Promised Goals. the Creator is without levels or promises. It is all and every both imaginable and unimaginable. the Creator has nothing to seek or be aware of at all. within the Vastness.. all terms of Vastness lose meaning. Form and Function and all Qualification.. lose any significance Here. the marchings of the Caesars.. the greatest and most abstract thoughts.. of philosophers..mathematicians..and enlightened " beings " .. are Here less than the playthings of infant animals. but kids will play grownups won't we? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > BobN > Nisargadatta > Monday, November 30, 2009 7:56 AM > Re: X-X > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > -geo- >(.b b.b.) > if Awareness is only aware of Itself through It's creation.. > > it is that ONLY the created is aware of it's creator. > > (geo): > What a fertile imagination. Is/can the created be aware of anything? > Are wooden dolls aware of something? (.b b.b.) now that's something i guess. i didn't know you were a wooden doll. as a " human being " i think most of us non-dolls of the wooden sort.. can be..and are aware of a lot of stuff. and actually.. i'm surprised that as a wooden doll.. that you are aware enough to comment on this " fertile " imagination. maybe you just like to hear yourself talk? maybe you come up with this crap (created by you).. totally unaware of anything. which is a sort of miracle in itself wouldn't you say? oops.. i forgot! you...as a created " thing-a-ma-gig " .. can't possibly be aware one way or the other. or.. you're talking out of both sides of your wooden mouth Howdy Doody. look geo.. you said: " Awareness is aware of itself through its creation " . now is it's creation the " created " or not? and if we are talking about sentient entities... and not wooden dolls or lollipops or Twinkies.. i think it is fair to say that it is a tautology.. which is implicit in the statement of the first part.. that the created (and ONLY so).. which is that which is aware of of Awareness which is it's creator. however if you have learned to suck and blow at the same time.. join a circus..you'll make a lot of money. unfortunately you are not likely to be aware of it. you don't seem to be aware of the logic of your own statements. now remember oh " he who is not " .. don't let your petty " self " which is not.. take offense at the above. anyway.. you shouldn't even be aware of it from what you're trying to say. neither beware nor be aware. that's the ticket! LOL! ..b b.b. (awareness without form or fashion) p.s. can't you take a joke? are you becoming as serious about yourself as are some others? above you remind me of the " Church Lady " on Saturday Night Live.. back when it was a funny show. maybe that's before your time. try youtube..maybe they have a nostalgic clip or two. and..think of me as.. " could it be...SATAN " ???? love that Dana Carvey! :-) (.bx3) **************the rest of the run on of the previous****************** > the Creator is not aware of Itself. > > it needn't and doesn't sink to q level of awareness. > > it leaves that sort of petty talent to that which emanates from It: > > as the created with it's own ever renewing promises.. > > which dissolve immediately upon any attainment thereof. > > as soon as the created finds itself... > > in possession of any of it's coveted prizes.. > > like it's discovery of some new level of Understanding.. > > it melts in it's hands as the " now unsought and unneeded " .. > > and new Vistas appear as Promised Goals. > > the Creator is without levels or promises. > > It is all and every both imaginable and unimaginable. > > the Creator has nothing to seek or be aware of at all. > > within the Vastness.. > > all terms of Vastness lose meaning. > > Form and Function and all Qualification.. > > lose any significance Here. > > the marchings of the Caesars.. > > the greatest and most abstract thoughts.. > > of philosophers..mathematicians..and enlightened " beings " .. > > are Here less than the playthings of infant animals. > > but kids will play grownups won't we? > > .b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > -geo- Geo - This is a key point your raise. It is " being aware of object construction. " When you use the term " created " I take " created " to be equivalent to " object constructed. " Can one be aware at the instant of an object being perceived, any object, how this construction appears? Can one be aware that memory, thought, sensing, and object appearing is one action? If so, there is no sense of an apprehender of the object apart from the object. Nor is thought about the object occurring somewhere else other than moment of apprehension of the object. Thus, any thought appearing isn't really " about " something else, but is simply itself an " object perceived. " The seeming division of memories about an object (for example, " my brother " ) and the current sensing of " brother in the room " is not there. No division is there. Thus, there are no separated objects. Even though thought and memory may seem to make separations, there aren't any actual dividing lines. Thought and memory themselves are not arising separately from anything else. Thus, there is no separated thinker of a thought or perceiver of a perception. Being aware of a thought is as much a simultaneous sensing/perceiving/cognizing action as any " other " perception. Thus, perception arises with distinctions but with no divisions, so to speak. The perceiver and the perceived are not-two. The mythic separation of a being from that which the being perceives and is affected by is gone. The subject/object dichotomy is not. The craziness of the world in which separately existing object-perceivers vie with each other, and strive to gain things from their environments dissolves. The " world of things " does not involve any divisible things acting on on another - and one sees what is. The world of things/constructed objects is known for what it is, and is not mistaken for what it is not. - Dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:36 PM Re: X-X Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > There is the need to turn it upside down. Awareness is aware of itself > > through its creation. The created can never be aware of the creator. > > > > -geo- Geo - This is a key point your raise. It is " being aware of object construction. " When you use the term " created " I take " created " to be equivalent to " object constructed. " Can one be aware at the instant of an object being perceived, any object, how this construction appears? Can one be aware that memory, thought, sensing, and object appearing is one action? If so, there is no sense of an apprehender of the object apart from the object. Nor is thought about the object occurring somewhere else other than moment of apprehension of the object. Thus, any thought appearing isn't really " about " something else, but is simply itself an " object perceived. " The seeming division of memories about an object (for example, " my brother " ) and the current sensing of " brother in the room " is not there. No division is there. Thus, there are no separated objects. Even though thought and memory may seem to make separations, there aren't any actual dividing lines. Thought and memory themselves are not arising separately from anything else. Thus, there is no separated thinker of a thought or perceiver of a perception. Being aware of a thought is as much a simultaneous sensing/perceiving/cognizing action as any " other " perception. Thus, perception arises with distinctions but with no divisions, so to speak. The perceiver and the perceived are not-two. The mythic separation of a being from that which the being perceives and is affected by is gone. The subject/object dichotomy is not. The craziness of the world in which separately existing object-perceivers vie with each other, and strive to gain things from their environments dissolves. The " world of things " does not involve any divisible things acting on on another - and one sees what is. The world of things/constructed objects is known for what it is, and is not mistaken for what it is not. - Dan - Yes, that is what I mean. Electrons of atoms of water are the ground of water ( there are smaller particles - much smaller)) and are not water nonetheless are not other then water -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > Nor is thought about the object occurring somewhere else other than moment of apprehension of the object. > > Thus, any thought appearing isn't really " about " something else, > but is simply itself an " object perceived. " Well-said, BTW. A thought arising has its own 'color', shape and 'feel' to it, like any other object, a teacup for example. A teacup is not 'about' something else. Likewise, neither is a thought. Nor do so-called 'inner' or 'outer' objects arise in different locations. Thus, all is here and now. Thoughts that supposedly refer to what isn't here and now, are here and now. There is nothing outside of thought and perception, both of which arise here and now. Thus, there is nothing outside of here and now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nor is thought about the object occurring somewhere else other than moment of apprehension of the object. > > > > Thus, any thought appearing isn't really " about " something else, > > but is simply itself an " object perceived. " > > Well-said, BTW. > > A thought arising has its own 'color', shape and 'feel' to it, like any other object, a teacup for example. > > A teacup is not 'about' something else. > > Likewise, neither is a thought. > > Nor do so-called 'inner' or 'outer' objects arise in different locations. > > Thus, all is here and now. > > Thoughts that supposedly refer to what isn't here and now, are here and now. > > There is nothing outside of thought and perception, both of which arise here and now. > > Thus, there is nothing outside of here and now. Yes, right on. Time is constructed by mental comparisons. Sensing, perceiving is always now, which is to say, timeless. The thought that a mental comparison occurred, creating a sense of time, is itself a constructed object perceived now - that is, without time. Thus, nothing is " about " something else. All the supposed constructed object/knowers of objects (aka " people " ) running around having conflicts with each other - are themselves never anything more or other than a constructed object being sensed now, i.e., no time involved. Thus, the claims to be a special kind of object that situates a knower separated from experiences being known, dissolves with awareness. Such a claim is based on history, knowledge, and mental comparisons - all of which require a belief that something is situated that knows things about other things. There isn't such a knowing - one understands this first hand, without time being involved. The supposition of such knowing dissolves. Now, one sees first-hand that there are no separated knowers existing anywhere. It doesn't matter how many crimes, manipulations, wars, lies, hatred, envy, etc. are perpetuated in the service of such separated knowers - all and each of those activities is an aspect of perceived situations - always perceived timelessly, as the knower is never other than the known - in all cases of experience/perception. So, one need not be naive about what is going on in the world, and the extent to which delusion/fragmentation operates. But delusion and fragmented ways of experience are constructed objects that appear like everything else, without any final or ultimate separation involved. The delusion/fragmented experiencing won't be " fixed " by people objecting to (i.e., " declaring war on " ) separation, hatred and envy in various ways. Only immediate insight clears up misinterpretation based on time and the notion of the separately existing and situated knower. - Dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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