Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " BobN " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > Unknown, not in the known - can't be analyzed or imparted. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > are you trying to identify the unknown dabbo? > > > > that's departed. > > > > .b b.b > > the dead bury the dead. > > see how they run. > > - d - you're the one running dabbo. running from the fact that you are idiotically.. trying to identify the unknown. and you put forth a pathetic attempt at humor.. as a pitiable technique of trying to evade admitting that fact. won't work sport. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " BobN " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > cerosoul > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Tim G. > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to no > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > Remember: you may fool some....others...... no. The ones that really smile. > > > > > > D: Not seeing any " escape " in that comment. > > > > > > It is not " about. " Period. You can't say what it is or isn't. > > > > > > it doesn't matter if you can see an escape. > > > > you can't see a lot of things dabbo. > > > > no offense. > > > > and no defense will be tolerated. > > > > .b b.b. > > i can't see anything, babbo. > > - d - cry me a river dabbo. your slobbering sob story is not to be tolerated. it's a weak defense despite it's actuality. but it's a defense nonetheless. didn't you read the orders above? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:38 PM Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:24 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > For me there is no " This " > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > Bill > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have > been > referred to, just like me as a thought. > -geo- > so you take words seriously for me they are like the saliva I now swallow... their significance has no duration. Bill Saliva is real as any pattern of awareness...of emptiness...of nothingness. Patterns have a short or not so short duration, like words. I am just trying to say that " nothing is " and " things are as their nature " is the same. Useless to toss this two concepts around as if some absolute. The false is real as false. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:54 AM, geo <inandor wrote:>> >> -> Bill Rishel> Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:38 PM> Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:24 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > >> >> >> > -> > Bill Rishel> > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan> >> > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote:> > >> > > > > >> > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea> > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference> > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > >> > > > > Bill> > > >> > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something.> > > >> > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > >> > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known.> > > >> > > > - D -> > > >> > >> > > I agree. > > >> > > This nothingness is not " non-being " .> > >> > > It's more of an unknowing.> > >> >> > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > > For me there is no " This " > >> > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ...> >> > Just an FYI, though so what, of course.> >> > Bill > >> > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have> > been> > referred to, just like me as a thought.> > -geo-> >>> so you take words seriously >> for me they are like the saliva I now swallow...>> their significance has no duration.>> Bill>> Saliva is real as any pattern of awareness...of emptiness...of nothingness. > Patterns have a short or not so short duration, like words.> I am just trying to say that " nothing is " and " things are as their nature " > is the same.> Useless to toss this two concepts around as if some absolute. > The false is real as false.> -geo->the breath moving my lungs this momenthas no duration *as a pattern*...patterns and duration are a botherwho needs them?Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > no > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an unknowing about... " > > > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to find something that can be known about this to say what it is. > > P: Exactly! ROFLOL! i guess you did need the help then. hahahahahahahaha! ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:04 PM Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:54 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:38 PM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:24 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > > > > > > > > - > > Bill Rishel > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > > For me there is no " This " > > > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > > > Bill > > > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have > > been > > referred to, just like me as a thought. > > -geo- > > > > so you take words seriously > > for me they are like the saliva I now swallow... > > their significance has no duration. > > Bill > > Saliva is real as any pattern of awareness...of emptiness...of > nothingness. > Patterns have a short or not so short duration, like words. > I am just trying to say that " nothing is " and " things are as their nature " > is the same. > Useless to toss this two concepts around as if some absolute. > The false is real as false. > -geo- > the breath moving my lungs this moment has no duration *as a pattern*... patterns and duration are a bother who needs them? Bill Need? I dont know. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " BobN " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > no > > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an unknowing about... " > > > > > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > > > > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to find something that can be known about this to say what it is. > > > > P: Exactly! > > > ROFLOL! > > i guess you did need the help then. > > hahahahahahahaha! > > .b b.b. P: " I get by with a little help from my friends " Being in the business, you " know " what having royalty rights to that phrase means. Haha! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 > The whole manifestation is being acknowledged, seen, " known " ,> aware-ed...just as it is.>> -geo-the " whole manifestation " ....????what are you talking about? never seen oneBill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:29 PM Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > The whole manifestation is being acknowledged, seen, " known " , > aware-ed...just as it is. > > -geo- the " whole manifestation " ....???? what are you talking about? never seen one Bill What is wrong with " whole manifestation " ? Is it not being aknowledged/seen? Or... " where " is it taking " place " ? -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Lene " <lschwabe wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Tim G. > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to no > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > Remember: you may fool some....others...... no. The ones that really smile. > > > > D: Not seeing any " escape " in that comment. > > > > It is not " about. " Period. You can't say what it is or isn't. > > > > Of course. Unknowing about is an oxymoron. > > -L- Good pointless point! - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > For me there is no " This " > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > Bill Then why do you keep saying " for me " (above) ... ? Who or what is this " for me " you're referring to? And to whom are you providing this information about what is true " for me " ... whom are you letting know that for you there is no me? - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Monday, February 01, 2010 11:48 PM > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > cerosoul > > Nisargadatta > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > Tim G. > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > --- > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > -geo- > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to no > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > Remember: you may fool some....others...... no. The ones that really > > smile. > > D: Not seeing any " escape " in that comment. > > It is not " about. " Period. You can't say what it is or isn't. > > geo: is that what you say? who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:13 AM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:44 PM, dan330033 <dan330033 wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:44 AM, cerosoul <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The word " nothingness " is a tarbaby, a gleam in a philosopher's > > > > > eye. And " nothing " more. > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > P: No thing exist as real nor illusion in unconsciousness. In > > > > this sense, nothigness is a synonym for unconsciousness. Our > > > > idea of nothingness arises from an irresolvable contradiction: > > > > our awareness of the total absence of everything when unconscious. > > > > > > > > How that strikes you? > > > > > > > > > > B: It's a cool idea... my first impression. > > > > > > To me unconsciousness is the natural state or dimension > > > of awareness, and consciousness is more like the fart > > > in the elevator. And yes, the existence of " things " , real > > > or illusory, is the play-dough work of consciousness. > > > > > > The real meat of your comment is the last sentence, > > > though. It is as if you are saying that when consciousness > > > goes into a kind of comma due to a relaxation and giving > > > up of its obsessive-compulsive tendencies there is a kind > > > of " blank on the screen " (speaking metaphorically) and > > > in the " absence " of the glitches/shit-brickbats thrown up > > > by consciousness... there is what could be called an > > > *artifact *of the system's own processing... a " sensation " > > > amounting to a kind of buzz... and not knowing what to > > > call it one might call it " nothingness " . It could also be > > > referenced via other terms... maybe " presence " , or > > > " light " , or ... Any serious-taking of such terms amounts > > > to consciousness re-entering the stage as it tries to > > > take up such topics and make something of them > > > (seems the mischief of consciousness is perpetually > > > of the " make something of <whatever> " variety). > > > > > > To sum up, it seems that " nothingness " is an attempt > > > to refer to an " *absence* of the glitches/shit-brickbats > > > thrown up by consciousness " , which is not some kind > > > of profound " metaphysical something " but just an effectively > > > metaphorical/poetic reference to the " absence " of the > > > conscious mind's continual yadda-yadda bull-shit-stream. > > > > > > Bill > > > > D: The absence as never-having-had-any-reality of divisions based on the > > past and memory. > > > > The end of any anchor found in so-called knowledge and accumulation of > > experiences. > > > B: I like this " end of any anchor " notion. > > And that's what " knowledge " is, come to think of it, an established > baseline, a *reference frame*. > > And what is so inconceivable to most everyone is absence of any > reference frame. > > What absence of any reference frame means is learning to > live without guidance of a " mind " , to live without guidelines, > without compass and starmap. > > > Bill > > Because in fact there is not any *reference frame* in the known - except the > conviction that there is. > -geo- " in fact " there is no reference frame? what fact are you referring to? - d - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > For me there is no " This " > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > Bill > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have been > referred to, just like me as a thought. > -geo- the thought is gone. - d - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:57 PM Re: Nothingness' Koan Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Monday, February 01, 2010 11:51 PM > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > cerosoul > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Tim G. > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much > > > > more. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > > > > no > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an > > unknowing about... " > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the > metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to > find > something that can be known about this to say what it is. > -d- > > Where was the attempt to hold into? > -geo- do you care about that? == OMG No!!!! -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , Marc <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Ah, thanks for reminding the author! > > The expression " it is an unknowing " about " " meant that it is not subject > > to > > knowledge - or any > > referring to it, for the case. The expression " nonetheless it is all > > knowing > > and much more " meant > > that any and all knowledge - or any thing, event, for the case - is known > > only by it. It is the only > > knower of any known. > > -geo- > > " (...) all knowledge (...) is known only by it. " > > It? Unknowing? Is the known known by unknowing? > -lene- > > Only the absolute unknon is the knower of the known. Ha...how strange...but > true. > -geo- > > Is unknowing the only knower of any known? > > What do you mean? > > -Lene > > Not unknowing but the unknown. Follow the analogy: > - Things are because there is no-thing > - Time because of timeless > -Space becasue of the space-less. > and... > - The known because of the unknown. > -geo- > > > and also... > > " geo " because of the unknown > > and then also... > > ignorance because of geo... > > etc > > > lol Yup, because of, because of. It is funny. - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:59 PM Re: Nothingness' Koan Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:13 AM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:44 PM, dan330033 <dan330033 wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:44 AM, cerosoul <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The word " nothingness " is a tarbaby, a gleam in a philosopher's > > > > > eye. And " nothing " more. > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > P: No thing exist as real nor illusion in unconsciousness. In > > > > this sense, nothigness is a synonym for unconsciousness. Our > > > > idea of nothingness arises from an irresolvable contradiction: > > > > our awareness of the total absence of everything when unconscious. > > > > > > > > How that strikes you? > > > > > > > > > > B: It's a cool idea... my first impression. > > > > > > To me unconsciousness is the natural state or dimension > > > of awareness, and consciousness is more like the fart > > > in the elevator. And yes, the existence of " things " , real > > > or illusory, is the play-dough work of consciousness. > > > > > > The real meat of your comment is the last sentence, > > > though. It is as if you are saying that when consciousness > > > goes into a kind of comma due to a relaxation and giving > > > up of its obsessive-compulsive tendencies there is a kind > > > of " blank on the screen " (speaking metaphorically) and > > > in the " absence " of the glitches/shit-brickbats thrown up > > > by consciousness... there is what could be called an > > > *artifact *of the system's own processing... a " sensation " > > > amounting to a kind of buzz... and not knowing what to > > > call it one might call it " nothingness " . It could also be > > > referenced via other terms... maybe " presence " , or > > > " light " , or ... Any serious-taking of such terms amounts > > > to consciousness re-entering the stage as it tries to > > > take up such topics and make something of them > > > (seems the mischief of consciousness is perpetually > > > of the " make something of <whatever> " variety). > > > > > > To sum up, it seems that " nothingness " is an attempt > > > to refer to an " *absence* of the glitches/shit-brickbats > > > thrown up by consciousness " , which is not some kind > > > of profound " metaphysical something " but just an effectively > > > metaphorical/poetic reference to the " absence " of the > > > conscious mind's continual yadda-yadda bull-shit-stream. > > > > > > Bill > > > > D: The absence as never-having-had-any-reality of divisions based on the > > past and memory. > > > > The end of any anchor found in so-called knowledge and accumulation of > > experiences. > > > B: I like this " end of any anchor " notion. > > And that's what " knowledge " is, come to think of it, an established > baseline, a *reference frame*. > > And what is so inconceivable to most everyone is absence of any > reference frame. > > What absence of any reference frame means is learning to > live without guidance of a " mind " , to live without guidelines, > without compass and starmap. > > > Bill > > Because in fact there is not any *reference frame* in the known - except > the > conviction that there is. > -geo- " in fact " there is no reference frame? what fact are you referring to? - d - Rephrazing: Because there is not any *reference frame* in the known - except the conviction that there is. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:00 PM Re: Nothingness' Koan Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Bill Rishel > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > For me there is no " This " > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > Bill > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have > been > referred to, just like me as a thought. > -geo- the thought is gone. - d - Gone as all thoughts go. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:48 PM, dan330033 <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > cerosoul > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Tim G. > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much > > more. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to no > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > Remember: you may fool some....others...... no. The ones that really > > smile. > > > > > > D: Not seeing any " escape " in that comment. > > > > > > It is not " about. " Period. You can't say what it is or isn't. > > > > > > > Yes, an imagination (dream) of speaking about <whatever> > > is just that, imagination. > > > > All we have, really, are " speech acts " . > > > > What is going on here is just brains massaging brains. > > > > Bill > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_acts > > Not really. > > - D - he must have meant unreally then. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Monday, February 01, 2010 11:51 PM > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > cerosoul > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Tim G. > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much > > > > > more. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > no > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an > > > unknowing about... " > > > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the > > metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to find > > something that can be known about this to say what it is. > > -d- > > > > Where was the attempt to hold into? > > -geo- > > do you care about that? why do you care if he cares? maybe it's personal. ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > no > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an unknowing about... " > > > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to find something that can be known about this to say what it is. > > P: Exactly! D: And right on. The denied attempt at security. Ah, the angst! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > Bill Rishel > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > > For me there is no " This " > > > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > > > Bill > > > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have been > > referred to, just like me as a thought. > > -geo- > > the thought is gone. > > - d - where? ..b b.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , " BobN " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " BobN " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > cerosoul > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 5:55 PM > > > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Tim G. > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > > Monday, February 01, 2010 2:33 PM > > > > > > > Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an unknowing " about " . Nonetheless it is all knowing and much more. > > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > P: Haha! Geo wants his mommy! Suck your thumb, fool. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> That is what is called " trying to escape to the left " , but to > no > > > > > > avail.....there is a fence there. > > > > > > > > > > It's interesting he said what he did. > > > > > > > > > > I don't see anything childish in your statement above, e.g. " it' is an unknowing about... " > > > > > > > > > > The feeling of childishness must be inside Pete. > > > > > > > > > > He certainly didn't get it from your words. > > > > > > > > Pete addressed the attempt to find something to hold onto, and used the metaphor of a child looking to hold onto a breast or a thumb. Trying to find something that can be known about this to say what it is. > > > > > > > > > oh for Christ sake let Pete talk for Pete. > > > > > > are you trying to be his mother? > > > > > > put that tit back where it belongs dabbo. > > > > > > my gracious! > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > i speak for pete and pete speaks for me. > > > > who are you speaking for? > > > > (this should be good) > > > > - d - > > > there is no such thing as good..nor bad. > > you don't speak for Pete. > > Pete does not speak for you. > > baba speaks for no one. > > however it should now be clear.. > > God Almighty speaks for Bob. > > .b b.b. I told you it would be good. God bless you Roberto. Go forth and sin no more. - D - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 - BobN Nisargadatta Tuesday, February 02, 2010 6:08 PM Re: Nothingness' Koan Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > > The whole manifestation is being acknowledged, seen, " known " , > > aware-ed...just as it is. > > > > -geo- > > the " whole manifestation " ....???? > > what are you talking about? > > never seen one > > Bill and you never will. unless you feel that you're special. ..b b.b. Nonesense. Seeing the whole as one is what is. To be special you need at least two. -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nisargadatta , Bill Rishel <illusyn wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:54 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > > > > > > > > - > > Bill Rishel > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:38 PM > > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:24 AM, geo <inandor wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Bill Rishel > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:48 AM > > > Re: Re: Nothingness' Koan > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Tim G. <fewtch wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion of " nothingness " , in any ontological sense, is > > > > > > a philosophical muddle. But it can still be a useful idea > > > > > > when it is seen as merely an idea, and not at as *reference > > > > > > to something* (urr, nothing). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > Yes, there's isn't any attempt to be referring to something. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, it's epistemological rather than ontological. > > > > > > > > > > Has to do with the limitation of knowing, and of the known. > > > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > This nothingness is not " non-being " . > > > > > > > > It's more of an unknowing. > > > > > > > > > > For me there is no " this nothingness " ... > > > For me there is no " This " > > > > > > For me there is no anything, not even " me " ... > > > > > > Just an FYI, though so what, of course. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Ah..for me there is everything, this and that - for obviously they have > > > been > > > referred to, just like me as a thought. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > so you take words seriously > > > > for me they are like the saliva I now swallow... > > > > their significance has no duration. > > > > Bill > > > > Saliva is real as any pattern of awareness...of emptiness...of > nothingness. > > Patterns have a short or not so short duration, like words. > > I am just trying to say that " nothing is " and " things are as their nature " > > is the same. > > Useless to toss this two concepts around as if some absolute. > > The false is real as false. > > -geo- > > > > the breath moving my lungs this moment > has no duration *as a pattern*... > > patterns and duration are a bother > > who needs them? > > Bill exactly. no need, no greed. - d - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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