Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. In personal relationship this sense of entitlement is the expectation of love especially when one believes that one shares " the truth " with the other person and then it only comes naturally that the other person should behave in a way rewarding to us, once again it's our belief that we deserve this pleasure in our lives. We expect, we deserve, and if we don't get it we get angry. In our daily lives this sense of entitlement or fairness or whatever one calls it can be as simple as how one expects to have a lovely dinner in the evening even though one may not be hungry at the time. In excessive American cuisine when one dines out there's the sense of entitlement that one can have a steak twice, three times or much larger than a normal serving size even though one does not need to finish what's on one's plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > In personal relationship this sense of entitlement is the expectation of love especially when one believes that one shares " the truth " with the other person and then it only comes naturally that the other person should behave in a way rewarding to us, once again it's our belief that we deserve this pleasure in our lives. We expect, we deserve, and if we don't get it we get angry. > > In our daily lives this sense of entitlement or fairness or whatever one calls it can be as simple as how one expects to have a lovely dinner in the evening even though one may not be hungry at the time. In excessive American cuisine when one dines out there's the sense of entitlement that one can have a steak twice, three times or much larger than a normal serving size even though one does not need to finish what's on one's plate. > True, Hur, And when you watch your thoughts you will realize that 50% are attractivity strategies. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > In personal relationship this sense of entitlement is the expectation of love especially when one believes that one shares " the truth " with the other person and then it only comes naturally that the other person should behave in a way rewarding to us, once again it's our belief that we deserve this pleasure in our lives. We expect, we deserve, and if we don't get it we get angry. > > In our daily lives this sense of entitlement or fairness or whatever one calls it can be as simple as how one expects to have a lovely dinner in the evening even though one may not be hungry at the time. In excessive American cuisine when one dines out there's the sense of entitlement that one can have a steak twice, three times or much larger than a normal serving size even though one does not need to finish what's on one's plate. > However, when one no longer has a vested interest at portraying someone other than one's *authentic* self (divested from one's fictional self), there is a reward in the here and now: the joy that is recaptured from its loss as was experienced in each and every one of us in greater or lesser degrees in our *growing up*. It is the energy of life itself, unleashed and allowed to *be* all that is. It's a grand way of living. Living this cornucopia that life on this earth school offers...in all its facets, in all its complexities and idiosyncracies, its paradox of horror and glory, (in)justice and perfect love. One knows there is NOTHING else. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > In personal relationship this sense of entitlement is the expectation of love especially when one believes that one shares " the truth " with the other person and then it only comes naturally that the other person should behave in a way rewarding to us, once again it's our belief that we deserve this pleasure in our lives. We expect, we deserve, and if we don't get it we get angry. > > > > In our daily lives this sense of entitlement or fairness or whatever one calls it can be as simple as how one expects to have a lovely dinner in the evening even though one may not be hungry at the time. In excessive American cuisine when one dines out there's the sense of entitlement that one can have a steak twice, three times or much larger than a normal serving size even though one does not need to finish what's on one's plate. > > > > > > However, when one no longer has a vested interest at portraying someone other than one's *authentic* self (divested from one's fictional self), there is a reward in the here and now: the joy > that is recaptured from its loss as was experienced in each and every one of us in greater or lesser degrees in our *growing up*. > > It is the energy of life itself, unleashed and allowed to *be* all that is. > > It's a grand way of living. Living this cornucopia that life on this earth school offers...in all its facets, in all its complexities and idiosyncracies, its paradox of horror and glory, (in)justice and perfect love. ~~~~~~ > > One knows there is NOTHING else. > > ~A > And from this creativity arises... the *you* and *I*.... inglorious bastards. (taken from t/here and th/reads. ~A writers are such inglorious bastards poets are even more so writing is the easy part, ot is good to have other-worldly ideals and aspirations to make do get through the days and nights sister sojourn and brother bloodbath, eventual cemetery called earth each and every scribbler, soundly invested in portraying anyone other than the self buried under the avalanche of words and lines, unlikely rewards just punishers amid an arsenal of punishments feeble attempts at self-manipulation to achieve a holier-than-thou stance or romance the crown of glory resting squarely on one's own foibles and volition acts of self-defense a vortex of energy curled up in a knot lying in wait to be unleashed from one's own malcontent recapturing the joy of childhood's end (there is no end) I eat from the tree of knowledge and become bitter fruit, resolute the energy of life itself, perplexity and complexity, simply grand paradox and hoax horror and story injustice and perfect love astounding myself alive I know there is nothing else. I am an inglorious bastard. I write. ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a social tool to modify behavior by punishment and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, so punishment and rewards in this world are not enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you you apologize for what your ancestor did to those poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if you did. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > you did. ) > Humans are ridiculously ignorant and arrogant creatures. Is that the best God can do? Sheesh! ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > > you did. ) > > > > > > Humans are ridiculously ignorant and arrogant creatures. > > Is that the best God can do? > > Sheesh! > > ~A > Sheesh sheesh, cha cha cha ... Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > you did. ) > wow how did this thread go from a random psychological insight to a painful chapter in history? i always felt that the problem was how both sides identified with their national identities so much that nearly a thousand year of co-existence was broken by the 19th and 20th century nationalization (identification) movements which was thought to be better than identifying with one's own religion...in reality it was just as bad if not worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > > you did. ) > > > > > > Humans are ridiculously ignorant and arrogant creatures. > > Is that the best God can do? > > Sheesh! > > ~A > you can put god on trial and no one will show up. he won't even send an email. as i seek a divine sign and check my inbox i see mostly spam about viagra and weight loss. so it's true that god wants me to lose weight and have more sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 - Hur Guler Nisargadatta Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 AM Re: How we deserve the rights... Nisargadatta , "anna" <kailashana wrote:>> > > Nisargadatta , "cerosoul" <pedsie6@> wrote:> >> > > > > > Nisargadatta , "wwoehr" <wwoehr@> wrote:> > >> > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , "Hur Guler" <hurg@> wrote:> > > >> > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the "judgement day." In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this "rightful" expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life.> > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a> > social tool to modify behavior by punishment> > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot> > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling,> > so punishment and rewards in this world are not> > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward.> > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the> > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies> > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is> > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you> > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those> > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if> > you did. )> >> > > > Humans are ridiculously ignorant and arrogant creatures.> > Is that the best God can do?> > Sheesh! > > ~A>you can put god on trial and no one will show up. he won't even send an email. as i seek a divine sign and check my inbox i see mostly spam about viagra and weight loss. so it's true that god wants me to lose weight and have more sex. -- hmmmmmpppfffff... lol -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > Hur Guler > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 AM > Re: How we deserve the rights... > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > > > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > > > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > > > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > > > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > > > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > > > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > > > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > > > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > > > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > > > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > > > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > > > you did. ) > > > > > > > > > > > Humans are ridiculously ignorant and arrogant creatures. > > > > Is that the best God can do? > > > > Sheesh! > > > > ~A > > > > you can put god on trial and no one will show up. he won't even send an email. as i seek a divine sign and check my inbox i see mostly spam about viagra and weight loss. so it's true that god wants me to lose weight and have more sex. > -- > > hmmmmmpppfffff... lol > > -geo- > Hmmm. More sex... good for the heart and soul... lose weight....good for the mind and body. The internet gods know what they do. :-) ~A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > > you did. ) > > >H. wow how did this thread go from a random psychological insight to a painful chapter in history? i always felt that the problem was how both sides identified with their national identities so much that nearly a thousand year of co-existence was broken by the 19th and 20th century nationalization (identification) movements which was thought to be better than identifying with one's own religion...in reality it was just as bad if not worse. P: Oh, you thought it was about history? No, that was just an example for you to relate to as how the idea of Justice works in weird ways. It also illustrates how ideas can totally eclipse the heart. Look what happened in Nigeria this week. How can people hack with machetes children to defend their religion? Ideals are merciless things. Both God and the Devil are ideas that kill. But, let's be fair to ideals, male lions kill other male's pups too without an idea in their brains. Maybe there is an ancient, nonstop war that goes on without our knowledge and makes us kill: he war of gene against gene. Our bodies are protein machines that march to an inhuman war beat. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <pedsie6@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > > > > > > > > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the " judgement day. " In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this " rightful " expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life. > > > > > > > > > > > P: Let's look at the ideal of justice. It's a > > > social tool to modify behavior by punishment > > > and reward. It uses fear and desire as carrot > > > and stick. Desires and needs are very compelling, > > > so punishment and rewards in this world are not > > > enough, we must invent divine vengeance, and reward. > > > > > > We are so caught up in the concept of bringing the > > > doer of deeds to account that we demand apologies > > > from the descendants of dead evildoers. That is > > > the current case of the Armenian genocide. Would you > > > you apologize for what your ancestor did to those > > > poor Armenians? They would feel so much better if > > > you did. ) > > > > >H. wow how did this thread go from a random psychological insight to a painful chapter in history? i always felt that the problem was how both sides identified with their national identities so much that nearly a thousand year of co-existence was broken by the 19th and 20th century nationalization (identification) movements which was thought to be better than identifying with one's own religion...in reality it was just as bad if not worse. > > P: Oh, you thought it was about history? No, that > was just an example for you to relate to as > how the idea of Justice works in weird ways. It > also illustrates how ideas can totally eclipse the > heart. Look what happened in Nigeria this week. How > can people hack with machetes children to defend > their religion? Ideals are merciless things. Both > God and the Devil are ideas that kill. But, let's > be fair to ideals, male lions kill other male's pups > too without an idea in their brains. Maybe there is > an ancient, nonstop war that goes on without our > knowledge and makes us kill: he war of gene against > gene. Our bodies are protein machines that march > to an inhuman war beat. > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. II SADHANA AND GRACE D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? M: (Keeps Silence for some time). D: (Puzzled) Should I consider Sri Bhagavan's silence as the reply to my question? M: Yes. Mauna [?] is Iswara svarupa. Hence the text: मौनवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤–à¥à¤¯à¤¾ पà¥à¤°à¤•à¤Ÿà¤¿à¤¤à¤ªà¤°à¤¬à¥à¤°à¤¹à¥à¤®à¤¤à¤¤à¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤®à¥ । 1 D: Buddha is said to have ignored such enquiries about God. M: And, for this he was called a sunya vadin (nihilist). In fact Buddha concerned himself more with directing the seeker to realise Bliss here and now than with academic discussions about God etc. D: God is described as manifest and unmanifest. As the former He is said to include the world as a part of His Being. If that is so, we as part of that world should have easily known Him in the manifested form. M: Know yourself before you seek to decide about the nature of God and the world. 1 The truth of Supreme Brahman proclaimed through silent eloquence. Page 56 D: Does knowing myself imply knowing God? M: Yes, God is within you. D: Then, what stands in the way of my knowing myself or God? M: Your wandering mind and perverted ways. D: I am a weak creature. But why does not the superior power of the Lord within remove the obstacles? M: Yes, He will, if you have the aspiration. D: Why should He not create the aspiration in me? M: Then surrender yourself. D: If I surrender myself, is no prayer to God necessary? M: Surrender itself is a mighty prayer. D: But is it not necessary to understand His nature before one surrenders oneself? M: If you believe that God will do for you all the things you want Him to do, then surrender yourself to Him. Otherwise let God alone and know yourself. D: Has God or the Guru any solicitude for me? M: If you seek either — they are not really two but one and identical — rest assured that they are seeking you with a solicitude greater than you can ever imagine. D: Jesus gave the parable of the lost coin, wherein the woman searches for it till it is found. Page 57 M: Yes, that aptly represents the truth that God or the Guru is always in search of the earnest seeker. Were the coin a dud piece, the woman would not have made that long search. Do you see what it means? The seeker must qualify himself through devotion etc. D: But one may not be quite sure of God's Grace. M: If the unripe mind does not feel His Grace, it does not mean that God's Grace is absent, for it would imply that God is at times not gracious, that is, ceases to be God. D: Is that the same as the saying of Christ, " According to thy faith be it done unto thee " . M: Quite so. D: The Upanishads [?] say, I am told, that he alone knows the Atman whom the Atman chooses. Why should the Atman choose at all? If it chooses, why some particular person? M: When the sun rises, some buds alone blossom, not all. Do you blame the sun for that? Nor can the bud blossom of itself, it requires the sunlight to do it. D: May we not say that the help of the Atman is needed because it is the Atman that drew over itself the veil of maya [?]? M: You may say so. D: If the Atman has drawn the veil over itself, should it not itself remove the veil? Page 58 M: It will do so. See for whom is the veil. D: Why should I? Let the Atman itself remove the veil! M: If the Atman talks about the veil, then the Atman itself will remove it. D: Is God personal? M: Yes, He is always the first person, the I, ever standing before you. Because you give precedence to worldly things, God appears to have receded to the background. If you give up all else and seek Him alone He alone will remain as the I, the Self. D: The final state of Realization according to Advaita [?], is said to be the absolute Union with the Divine and according to Visishtadvaita [?], a qualified union, while Dvaita [?] maintains that there is no union at all. Which of these should be considered the correct view? M: Why speculate as to what will happen some time in the future? All are agreed that the `I' exists. To whichever school of thought he may belong, let the earnest seeker first find out what the `I' is. Then it will be time enough to know what the final State will be, whether the `I' will get merged in the Supreme Being or stand apart from Him. Let us not forestall the conclusion, but keep an open mind. D: But will not some understanding of the final state be a helpful guide even to the aspirant? Page 59 M: No purpose is served in trying to decide now what the final state of Realization will be. It has no intrinsic value. D: Why so? M: Because you proceed on a wrong principle. Your ascertainment has to depend on the intellect which shines only by the light it derives from the Self. Is it not presumptuous on the part of the intellect to sit in judgement over that of which it is but a limited manifestation, and from which it derives its little light? How can the intellect which can never reach the Self be competent to ascertain, and much less decide the nature of the final state of Realization? It is like trying to measure the sunlight at its source by the standard of the light given by a candle. The wax will melt down before the candle comes anywhere near the sun. Instead of indulging in mere speculation, devote yourself here and now to the search for the Truth that is ever within you. Anyways I am so bummed the Nis web page that is opens as my default page is down. It would be such a bummer to lose that. It posts one thought at a time, I love that. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > II > SADHANA AND GRACE > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > II > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts > clearly not ramana was speaking realization pure and simple. it is not a mattter of broken or unbroken it is beyond right or wrong it is both. and it is all the probelem with advaita is that it just becomes another devotional kind of religion fuck devotion it's purefied mind,but it's still mind Mark Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60 wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > > II > > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts > > > clearly not > ramana was speaking realization pure and simple. > it is not a mattter of broken or unbroken it is beyond right or wrong it is both. and it is all > the probelem with advaita is that it just becomes another devotional kind of religion > fuck devotion it's purefied mind,but it's still mind > Mark > Mark > Mind ? Mind ? Could you please show me the mind ? Ramana Maharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > II > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts > Great post, Hur, thanks. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > II > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Anna: Something that never was can never disappear. lol But the thought that thinks that changes dramatically. It's quite comical when that happens. One is a bit crazy during its *revelation*; laughing and crying simultaneously. Oh! What a release! Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. Anna: All these voices in our heads, clamoring for attention. It's a wonder more of us aren't crazy. Just which ones do we listen to? Why? Which thoughts do we select and make *ours*? One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts > Anna: This is absolutely gorgeous, Hur! The essence of peace. And one can't arrive to this type of mercy without *having been there*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Nisargadatta , " anna " <kailashana wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > > II > > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. > > Anna: Something that never was can never disappear. Imagine trying to lift a weight that's too heavy. It isn't going to happen. So you drop the weight. Something that never was (lifting up the weight) never disappeared, but the pain of the attempt went away. That can be nice :-p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hurg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " marktimmins60 " <marktimmins60@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I was reading Ramana today and then saw this thread,so I thought I would add this little tidbit about God. > > > > II > > > > SADHANA AND GRACE > > > > D: Research on God has been going on from time immemorial. Has the final word been said? > > > > > > > > M: (Keeps Silence for some time). > > > > > > > > > > No research ever found god. No book on theology ever found god. Countless millions died waiting for the return of jesus or some other divine superstar. No one ever found god except some people in mental hospitals. To find god one must be a person, appear in one's mind as a person... then god has to appear in the mind as another person, and what a beautiful union between the two appearances. It's a divine love story playing by itself. > > > > > > Clearly ramana is talking to a devotional seeker and it's always better to talk to them in those terms. Long time ago there was a god in my world that i worshipped. Then somehow god disappeared. Like a faded photo of a lover that never was. If anyone told me back then my love didn't exist I would surely think that person belonged in a mental hospital. One must have mercy on those dual and nondual minds, always feeling sympathy for the ones with broken hearts > > > > > clearly not > > ramana was speaking realization pure and simple. > > it is not a mattter of broken or unbroken it is beyond right or wrong it is both. and it is all > > the probelem with advaita is that it just becomes another devotional kind of religion > > fuck devotion it's purefied mind,but it's still mind > > Mark > > Mark > > > > > Mind ? Mind ? > > Could you please show me the mind ? > > Ramana Maharshi > Yes I can, it lives in every belief you believe. Can you show me your heart? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Nisargadatta , "Hur Guler" <hurg wrote:>> I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits. > > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the "judgement day." In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered this "rightful" expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life.> [...]Dear Hur Ji:Your observation is excellent and I don't have much disagreement with your thesis. However, I wanted to share some thoughts on the subject.Kids in us never really grows up, it only learns to behave.We learn by observing and by seeing what happens in response to what. This observation of 'what happens in response to what' gets stored as knowledge and also forms our conditioning. We use it to predict and plan.As one neurologist claims:Predicting is not one job of the brain; it is the MAIN job of the brain!A large part of our thinking is about speculating over future often by using our knowledge of past and current events and extrapolating them to the future.As kids we are taught to behave certain way and do certain things to get "better" grades.As adults we are asked to behave certain way to get better rewards, bonuses, perks etc.The expectations and the deed-result link forms the basis for much of the social conduct. I don't think we can take it of our society or, ... out of our 'social mind'. And, I am not sure if there is a substitute, which is better.Bottom line, I don't think it is necessary or useful to completely remove expectations and the knowledge of input-output relationship from our mind. With warm regards,ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Nisargadatta , "ac" <adithya_comming wrote:>> > Nisargadatta , "Hur Guler" hurg@ wrote:> >> > I was thinking tonight that what often gets me in trouble is my> expectation of how i deserve certain rights and benefits.> >> > In a more grand scale, for example in spirituality, it's our> expectation of justice delivered either in this life or at the> "judgement day." In fact for some people it's inconceivable how some> people can be left without punishment. When the revenge is delivered> this "rightful" expectation is as modern as karma and as traditional as> hell. If we simply behave as we should then we expect to be rewarded in> heaven or in some type of blissful state here in this life.> >> > [...]> Dear Hur Ji:> Your observation is excellent and I don't have much disagreement with> your thesis. However, I wanted to share some thoughts on the subject.> Kids in us never really grows up, it only learns to behave.> > We learn by observing and by seeing what happens in response to what.> This observation of 'what happens in response to what' gets stored as> knowledge and also forms our conditioning. We use it to predict and> plan.> As one neurologist claims:> Predicting is not one job of the brain; it is the MAIN job of the brain!> A large part of our thinking is about speculating over future often by> using our knowledge of past and current events and extrapolating them to> the future.> As kids we are taught to behave certain way and do certain things to get> "better" grades.> As adults we are asked to behave certain way to get better rewards,> bonuses, perks etc.{ As kids we observe and learn what makes our parents happy, angry...As adults we learn what makes our spouse, friends, bosses pleased, angry...As humans we learn what makes a dog or a wild animal feel threatened, angry or challenged... }This "learning" is built into our observation and this observation is very closely connected with the very act of seeing.> > > > The expectations and the deed-result link forms the basis for much of> the social conduct. I don't think we can take it of our society or, ...> out of our 'social mind'. And, I am not sure if there is a substitute,> which is better.> > Bottom line, I don't think it is necessary or useful to completely> remove expectations and the knowledge of input-output relationship from> our mind.> > With warm regards,ac> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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