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On the eve of Shankara Jayanti

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This is the talk I gave in 1999 at Chinmaya Mission,

Madras on the day of Shankara Jayanti. It was posted

before, but I thought it is important to recaptulate

the doctrin of Adviata Vedanta propounded by Shankara

Bhagavat paada.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--------------------------

Advaita Vedanta of Shankara Bhagavatpada

 

shruti smRRiti purANAnAm Alayam karuNAlayam |

namAmi bhagavat pAdam sha~Nkaram loka sha~Nkaram.h ||

 

aShTavarShe chaturvedI dvAdaShe sarvashAstravit.h |

ShoDaShe kRRitavAn bhAShyam dvAtRimShe munirabhyagAt.h

||

 

Bhagavan Shankara became an exponent of four Vedas by

the time he was eight, by twelve he learned all the

shAstras, by sixteen he wrote 'bhAShya'-s on

'prasthAnatraya' and by thirty-two he fulfilled his

mission and left to his abode.

 

Bhagavan Shankara was one of the greatest missionaries

that India ever produced. The philosophy that he

expounded is the Advaita. 'A-dvaita' is not monism,

emphasizing the oneness itself, but more of negation

of duality or plurality, as a reality. For, it is

recognized, and supported by scriptures, that absolute

oneness cannot be defined other than through the

negation of all duality. Absoluteness can only be

that which is free from negation - tri-kAla abAdhitam

satyam, that which cannot be negated in three periods

of time, alone is the truth. The negation of all

duality leaves one who is the negator, who cannot be

negated. Since negation process involves an agent who

must be a conscious entity to carry out the negation

process, what remains after the completion of all

process of negation of duality can only be the

conscious entity, the subject, itself. As we shall

see later that there cannot be anything other than

consciousness. The doctrine of Advaita that Bhagavan

Shankara advocated is about the nature of the absolute

truth, which can withstand the rigor of modern

scientific analysis, yet it is above any analysis or

logic. 'naiShA tarkeNa matirApaneya' says

Kathopanishad that the truth cannot be deduced by

logic, thus leaving the scripture as the only

'pramANa' or means of knowledge to know it. The

recognition of oneness or definition of oneness is

impossible, since the very process of definition

involves intrinsic duality: the definer and the

defined. In oneness, all one can be is just be -

Existence - Consciousness - one without a second; and

hence all communications stop, since there is no

communicator and the communicated, leaving the eternal

dynamic silence alone, which is the very substratum

for all that has been negated. Bhagavan Ramana

Maharshi puts this beautifully in the very first

shloka of his 'Sat-darshana':

 

satpratyayAH kiM nu vihAya santam

hRRidyesha chintArahito hRRidAkhyaH |

kathaM smarAmastamameyamekam

tasya smRRitistatra dRRiDhaiva niShThA ||

 

" The principle of existence which is the very core of

ones individuality that which is free from all

thoughts, how can I think if 'it'. All I can dois

just 'be' established firmly in it, as the very

being " . This is a prayer of 'j~nAnI' who is firmly

established in the Advaitic

understanding of the nature of the reality.

 

Hence the philosophy is rightly called Advaita,

non-dualism. The 'non' aspect is emphasized

throughout. The truth of Advaita is (a) the

non-duality of the absolute, (b) non-reality of the

world and © non-difference of the so-called

individual soul from the absolute reality. Advaita is

not a sectarian doctrine. It is the culmination of all

doctrines, the crown of all views. Advaita is opposed

to none, however much the other philosophies project

it to be so. It emphasizes the Advaitic nature of the

truth that is transcendental. Dr. T.M.P Mahadevan, a

great exponent of Advaita writes: " Advaita is not an

-ism. When we translate Advaita as non-dualism, the

negation is signified by the prefix non – applies not

only to duality but also to -ism. "

 

In celebrating Bhagavan Shankara's Jayanti, it will be

fitting for us to recapitulate the essence of Advaitic

doctrine expounded by Bhagavan for the benefit of the

entire humanity, and how it differs in its essence

from that of 'Vishishta-advaita' and 'Dvaita'

doctrines.

 

Any philosophy must begin with the explanation of

three essential aspects: Jiva - the individual, Jagat

- the world, and Ishwara - the Lord or the Creator.

The existence of the first two is obvious from one's

own experience and does not require any further proof

or 'pramANa'. The existence of the third, Ishwara,

follows once we recognize that the

world is a creation.

 

Science has yet to provide a convincing explanation

for the origin of the universe. It leaves us with the

concept of a big bang, that requires (a) a highly

centralized matter for the bang to occur, and (b) the

pre-existence of physical laws that govern the bang.

Presupposition of these two entities leaves the theory

incomplete at best. In addition, it offers no

explanation for the origin of the consciousness or

life force, other than accounting it by yet another

accident. In Vedanta, there are no accidents in life,

There are only incidents, where each incident is an

effect, and every effect must have at least a cause.

 

Krishna makes a very profound statement in Ch.II of

Bhagavad gItA. 'nAsato vidyAte bhAvo nAbhAvo vidyAte

sataH |' - that which is non-existent can never come

into existence and that which is existent can never

cease to exist. This is essentially the law of

conservation principle that a student of science

learns as the first fundamental law of nature. Matter

or energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Only

one form of matter or energy can be converted to

another. Creation therefore cannot be something out of

nothing that makes existence out of non-existence. It

can only be a transformation of one form of existence

to another form; a change of name and a form ('nAma'

and 'rUpa') with the associated qualities. Shankara

says in 'Drig-Drishya Viveka':

 

asti bhAti priyaM rUpaM nAmaM chetyaMsha pa~nchakam.h

|

AdyatrayaM brahmarUpaM jagadrUpaM tato dvayam.h ||

 

'nAma' and 'rUpa' or name and form only belong to the

Jagat, the world, but the essence that supports the

very existence of the object with 'nAma' and 'rUpa'

and hence the world, belongs to Brahman. How is that

so? How does the doctrine of Advaita come to grips

with the presence of two diagonally opposite to one

another: the presence of a sentient or 'chaitanya

vastu' and that of 'jaDa vastu' or the insentient or

inert matter in the universe.

Since according to Krishna nothing can be created nor

destroyed, then how do we end up with non-duality from

the seemingly real duality involving sentient and

insentient 'vastu padArtha'?

 

Other philosophies have no problem since they accept

the duality, dvaita, as reality; jIva satyam,

paramAtmA satyam and jagat satyam are the three

axiomatic statements on which dvaita philosophies

rest. Let us analyze briefly the scriptural support

for the Advaita and see how it is consistent with

scriptural declarations, while being logical and

scientific.

 

During our prayers, we normally chant an invocation

shloka from Upanishads:

 

pUrNam adaH pUrNam idam

pUrNAt purNam udachyate |

pUrNasya pUrNam AdAya

pUrNam eva avashiShyate ||

 

Completeness or fullness is that and completeness is

this. From completeness, completeness is born, From

completeness ( or to completeness), completeness is

added (or subtracted) Completeness alone remains.

 

This is interpreted in the dvaitic literature as the

relation between the supreme Brahman, Narayana and his

incarnations, Rama, Krishna, etc. adaH stands for the

supreme Lord Narayana and idam stands for the

'avatArAs', which are also considered as 'pUrNam' in

the sense that they are capable of granting mokSha to

the devotees who surrender to them. From Narayana,

'pUrNAt', the avatarA-s, 'pUrNam', udachyate, are

born. Fullness of Narayana is not compromised when

avatArAs originate from Him. He remains full, pUrNam

eva avashiShyate.

 

We examine, now, the shloka from the point of Advaita

doctrine. We use the word 'that', 'adaH' to point out

something that is spatially remote from us, and

'this', 'idam', we use for that which is close by.

Therefore, 'that' can stand for something remote in

space. At times, we also use the word 'that' to denote

something remote from time-wise, in terms of our past.

When we say " do you remember that - what happened when

we were children " - here 'that' is used to point out

an incident remote in time. Thus, 'that' is used to

denote something remote - spatially or temporally.

'This' we use to denote something that is close by.

However, in Vedanta 'this' is used as technical word

implying more than what is discussed. 'This' or 'idam'

in Vedanta stands for the entire world of plurality

that can be pointed as this, this and this. So 'this'

according to Vedanta, stands for anything and

Everything that one can point out as this - 'idam

vastu'. 'This' therefore stands for the whole 'jagat'

that can be pointed out as this and this. To emphasize

this meaning, in 'IshAvAsya' Upanishad, in the very

first shloka after above invocation shloka, it says,

'IshAvAsyam idam sarvam'. Thus 'idam' is used again

pointing out that 'idam' here and in the invocation

shloka means 'idam sarvam jagat' this entire universe,

which is pervaded by Isha, the Lord. Hence the

invocation shloka points out that idam stands for the

entire

Jagat or universe which is a creation and it has to be

'pUrNam' or complete or infinite. The statement is

logical too. If it is finite, then the question arises

as to what is there outside the finite creation. If

there is 'some thing outside' the creation, then the

next question is who created that outside. If so, it

becomes inside the creation, since that outside is

created. Hence, by sheer logic, we can deduce that

creation has to be infinite or pUrNam. Hence, the

second part of the first line - 'pUrNam idam' is

correct by indicating that this 'jagat' is 'pUrNam' or

infinite. Science has yet to find the boundaries for

the universe.

 

If everything is included in the 'idam', which is

pUrNam, then how do we account for the first part of

the line 'pUrNam adaH' - which says 'that is

complete'. When we say something is infinite or

complete, it cannot exclude anything. For, if it

excludes, by that very exclusion, it becomes apUrNam

or finite, and hence its pUrNatwam or infiniteness is

violated. However, scriptural statement is emphatic in

the assertion that ' that is also

complete'. Then, there must be some 'adaH', 'that',

which is remote and also is not included in the Jagat,

'idam pUrNam'. That 'adaH' must also be pUrNam on its

own right, since scripture is making a separate

statement towards that effect. In addition, since two

separate statements have been made in terms of idam

and adaH - they should be mutually exclusive. That is,

idam should exclude adaH, and adaH should exclude

idam. The problem that we run into now is by mutual

exclusion neither idam nor adaH can be pUrNam, since

pUrNam cannot admit any exclusion for a thing to be

pUrNam. Since the

scripture cannot be wrong, there must be something

more to it than what meets our eye.

 

Examining further, if 'idam' includes all that can be

pointed out - that is the entire Jagat, then what is

'that', that is not included in 'this'. The only thing

that is not included in 'idam' is 'I', aham, who is

doing the pointing as this and this and this. 'I'

being a subject cannot be pointed as 'this'. So only

'aham' is excluded in 'idam' jagat. If so, why

Scripture has to use the word as 'adaH' indicating

remoteness, when I am so close to myself. In using the

word 'adaH' for aham, scripture is also indicating

something else. It is not remote from space-wise or

time-wise, but remote from understanding-wise.

Scripture is indicating that I do not know who I am. I

take myself to be what I am not. I take myself as

'this body' - 'idam sharIram' either at gross level or

at subtle level that is mistaking myself to be my mind

or my intellect etc. It is not obvious that with all

my

limitations - 'deha parichchhinno.aham, mano

parichchhinno.aham', etc., I am limited by the size of

my body, limited by the size of my mind, etc.- how I

can be pUrNam, limitless? In fact, I feel apUrNam or

limited all the time. All my struggles in life are

only to solve this problem of my inadequacy or

apUrNatwam or the feeling of limitedness. Scripture is

pointing something different from my day-to-day

experience of myself. Obviously, I don't need a

scripture to tell me that I am apUrNam since that is

my day-to-day experience. Scripture as a pramANa is

trying to educate me about myself, which is beyond my

day-to-day experience. It is pointing that I am not

what I think I am, but I am that total - pUrNam - with

no internal distinctions nor external relations.

 

Even if I accept the scriptural statement on its face

value, in spite of my day-to-day experience, there is

still a problem in the scriptural statement. For, aham

is excluded from idam and idam is excluded from aham.

By mutual exclusion neither one can be purNam. Hence,

there is a self-contradiction in the scriptural

statement -' pUrNam adaH, pUrNam idam.

 

To resolve this issue we need to examine the second

line. ' pUrNAt pUrNam

udachyate'- from pUrNam pUrNam came. Now the question

arises from which

pUrNam which pUrNam came, since we are left with two

pUrNam-s in the first

line. Recognizing the problems with 'idam' and 'adaH',

scripture advises us to drop both idam and adaH, I and

this world, but shift our attention to pUrNam. By the

parAllel construction - pUrNam adaH pUrNam idam,

pUrNAt pUrNam udachyate - it follows that from adaH

pUrNam, idam pUrNam is projected. Since adaH stands

for aham, I, the scripture is pointing out that this

jagat, universe that I am seeing, experiencing, arose

from aham, I. That is I am the cause for this entire

creation, since it comes from me.

This is a daring declaration. Not only I am pUrNam, I

am the very source of the entire jagat. How can that

be?

 

We started our discussion with three - jIva, Jagat and

Ishwara and the discussion is now reduced to two, I,

the conscious or sentient entity and the jagat the

insentient entity. In addition, scripture is also

indicating that the whole universe comes from me, the

conscious entity. How can an inert thing, jaDam, be

originated from a conscious entity or 'chaitanya

vastu'? Let us examine the shruti declarations related

to the origin of the universe. One can see why

scripture becomes a pramANa or means of knowledge

for understanding this riddle.

 

In Chandogya Upanishad, Uddalaka teaches his son,

Shwetaketu, about the origin of the universe. He says:

'sadeva saumya idam agra AsIt, ekameva advitIyam' -

'Hey, good looking one, existence alone was there in

the beginning, before the creation. It is one without

a second'. Before the creation began, what was there?

It is not matter or jaDam, or Vishnu or Krishna or

father in heaven. Whatever was there before the

creation

Started is independent of name and form, nAma and

rUpa. If there is a rUpa, a form,

then one can give a name. On the other hand, if there

is a rUpa or form then, it automatically defines a

boundary of inside and outside with respect to that

rUpa or form. If there is outside for the rUpa, then

a question related to where and when did that outside

came into existence - if that outside exists, then it

is part of the existence and not different from the

existence. If instead, the outside is created then it

must be created from what was existing there before.

In either case, it reduces to the fact that existence

alone was there before the creation, and it is one

without a second. If there is a second, in order to be

different from the first, which is existence, the

second can only be a non-existence, since

non-existence alone can be different from the

existence. However, how can one say that non-existence

exists, since it is a contradiction in terms. Hence

sat eva saumya idam agra AsIt - existence alone was

there in the beginning. Uddalaka next refutes an

alternate theory that non-existence alone was there in

the beginning. ' tat ha eka AhuH | asat eva idam agra

AsIt | tasmAt asataH sajjAyata ' - some say that

non-existence alone was there in the beginning before

creation and from the non-existence, existence is

born. How can

that be possible - 'kutastu khalu saumya evam syAditi

hovAcha | katham asataH sajjAyeta - sat tu eva saumya

idam agra AsIt, ekam eva advitIyam' - 'How can one say

that? How is it possible for existence to come out of

non-existence? Hence, hey, good looking one, existence

alone was there in the beginning and it is one without

a second'. This is consistent with Krishna's statement

- 'na asato vidyAte bhAvo na abhAvo vidyAte

sataH'| That which is non-existent can never come into

existence and that which exists can never cease to

exist, which we discussed as the law of conservation

in absolute sense. Hence, creation can only start

from that which exists. Hence, Uddalaka's statement is

logically sound. In Panchadasi, commenting on

'existence' Shri VidyAranya says, " existence which is

the essential nature of reality has neither external

relations, nor internal differentiation. To limit it,

is to finitize it. It is unrelated to any thing, for

there is nothing else with which it can be related to.

The real which is the most perfect being cannot be

delineated by determinations and relations. "

 

However, what kind of existence was there in the

beginning that was one without a second. Uddalaka

continues: 'tad aikShata, bahu syAm prajAyeyeti', 'it

saw - it decided to become many, and it became many'.

Since the scripture says - it saw - as Brahmasutra

emphasizing this point says 'IkShaternAshabdam'

because of the use of the word 'IkShata' - by the use

of the word that 'it saw', scripture is pointing that

the existence that was there before the creation of

the Jagat is not of the type of inert existence -

since it has the capacity 'to see'. Inert things

cannot see. Hence by implication scripture indicates

that, what was there before the creation was a

'chaitanya vastu' - a conscious entity and not an

inert entity. Hence 'sat' that was there before

creation is also 'chit'. Furthermore, when it says it

saw, and since there is nothing else to see as it is

'ekamevA advitIyam', one without a second, scripture

is also indicating that it is a self-conscious or

self-effulgent entity. 'It decided to become many and

became many' - further implying that it has the

Potential to become many and therefore decided to

become many - that is, the Decision is preconceived.

Hence creation starts first with a conception - or

idea or a thought - and the thought transforms into

action i.e., manifestation into many. The thought

arises in the primordial existence. Thought can arise

only in the mind of a conscious entity. Since we have

total existence which is one without a second, the

origin of the mind and the thought are synonymous.

The total consciousness-existence with the total mind

is what Advaita calls as Ishwara. Identifying with

that total mind Brahman thought - let me become many

and he became many. One becoming many as the creation

evolved is also emphasized in other Upanishads as

well. Aitareya Upanishad says: ' AtmA vA idameka eva

agra AsIt | na anyat ki~nchana miShat| sa aikShata

lokAn nu sRRijA iti |' - 'Before the creation AtmA was

alone there. There was nothing else that was there

other than AtmA. He wanted to see the manifestation of

the creation'. In this Upanishad, we note the

primordial existence-consciousness that was identified

in Ch. Up. is referred to here as AtmA as the Self

and there is nothing else other than AtmA. Since

there is nothing other than AtmA it is the supreme or

paramAtmA too. Hence, any theories that claim that

there is inert entity (jagat even in a subtle form) or

plurality in AtmA are not compatible with the

upanishadic statement. Furthermore, Taittiriya

Upanishad says - 'tasmAt vA

etasmAt AtmAna AkAshaH sambhUtaH | AkAshAt vAyuH |

vAyoH agniH | agneH ApaH| adbhyaH pRRithivI |

pRRithivyA oShadhayaH |..'Thus from this AtmA, space

is born, from space, air; from air, fire; from fire,

water; from water, earth; and from earth the medicines

.. etc. Thus, creation started from the 'chaitanya

vastu', AtmA, which is of the nature sat and chit,

existence and consciousness, one without a second.

Thus scriptures repeatedly declare that what was there

before creation was only one, which is of the nature

of consciousness and from that one came the manifested

universe starting from space, air, fire, water and

earth -'pa~ncha bhUtA'-s - subtler one giving rise to

more and more grosser ones. Having established that

consciousness alone was there before the

creation, the question remains to be answered is how

the 'chaitanya vastu' or conscious entity can give

rise to 'achaitanya vastu' or 'jaDa padArtham', or

inert matter. pUrNAt pUrNamudachyate- From 'aham

pUrNam idam pUrNam' came is the statement.

'chaitanyam' (sentient) and 'jaDam' (insentient) are

two diametrically opposite entities and therefore that

'jaDam', which is of the nature of ignorance or

darkness cannot result from that which is the light of

all lights, jyotirjyotiH.

 

Recognizing the problem, mother shruti comes to our

rescue again in explaining the exact nature of the

universe. To understand this problem of inert matter

arising from a 'chaitanya vastu', we go to Mandukya

Upanishad that analyzes the nature of reality in the

three states of consciousness, waking, dream and deep

sleep states. It is important to note that existence

of the universe, jagat, which is jaDam, is confirmed

not by itself but by an experiencer of the universe,

who is 'chaitanya swarUpa'. Without the experiencer,

there is no experienced. Whether jagat or world

exists or not cannot be confirmed, since for

confirmation, a chaitanya vastu must exist, and that

chaitanya vastu should illumine the jaDa vastu for it

to get established that it exists. In addition, jagat

being jaDam, it cannot know by itself. In fact, one

can define jaDam as 'anya adhIna prakAshatvam, tat

jaDam' that is, whose existence is illuminated or

known by another, which itself has to be self-existent

or self-luminous.

 

In Advaita Vedanta there are two explanations related

to creation - dRRiShTi-sRRiShTi and sRRiShTi-dRRiShTi.

' I see it, therefore it is' and ' it is, therefore I

see it'. In the first case, the universe exists

because I see it. If I do not see it, then the

universe cannot be independently (independent of a

conscious entity) established, since it is inert.

Hence,

it is anya AdhIna prakAshatvam, that is, its existence

depends some thing other than itself. In the second

case, 'I see it, therefore it is' is a subjective

projection of the objective universe, in contrast to

'it is, therefore I see it' which is the objective

projection of the objective universe. To understand

the distinction between the two clearly, let us

take the famous example of a rope and the snake. 'I

see a snake and therefore snake is there. This

subjective projection involves a partial truth

superimposed on which is a subjective notion. This is

called error of superimposition or adhyAsa. I am

aware of the existence of some object, which is long,

and thin 'out there'. That is the truth part of it,

that is, there is the awareness of an object that

exists 'out there'. However, in addition to that,

there is a superimposed notion, which is a subjective

cognition or projection on the objective vision due to

an incomplete inquiry, vichAra, or incomplete

information due to the limitation of the illuminating

equipments, such as defective eyesight or dim light on

the object etc. We call it as notional or 'bhrama',

since it is subject to negation, when full information

becomes available about the object, either through the

process of inquiry or clear vision.

 

The complete process of perception by the human mind

through the senses involves perception, volition,

cognition and recognition. Cognition that there is an

object - 'vastu j~nAnam' is there, even when there is

an incomplete information through senses. However, in

recognition, that involves comparison of what is

perceived with what was known from one's memory bank,

the object can be wrongly recognized as a snake

instead of a rope, since vastu j~nAnam or sense

information is incomplete. Hence, when there is an

incomplete apprehension, then there is a possibility

for an error, mistaking a rope as a snake. Snake is a

notion in a seer's mind, since it is not really a

snake but a rope; and therefore it is subject to

negation when more complete information becomes

available. Thus, it is a subjective projection of the

objective world, which is rope. What is negated is

not the substratum that supports the notion of the

snake, that is the rope, but what is negated is only

the subjective notion, that it is a snake, of the

objective reality, which is a rope. When I recognize

the object as a snake, it is not complete

non-apprehension of the object. If so, then there is

neither a rope nor a snake. For an error to exist,

there is a partial or incomplete knowledge of the

vastu, the object of perception. Thus in the

dRishTi-sRishTi, the world exists because it is seen.

Whether I see the rope as a snake or as a rope, the

existence of the object is based on my perception.

There is superimposed error involved if my perception,

volition, cognition or recognition is singly, serially

or collectively defective. Error can be negated, when

the truth is correctly perceived. Here what is negated

is the notion or rather my understanding or my

misunderstanding of the universe. In this case, that

it is the snake that is negated, when the truth of the

rope is completely comprehended. The existence of the

substratum, the rope, is never negated. Either rope is

seen as a snake or rope is seen as a rope. From the

rope point rope remains as a rope, all the time even

when it is perceived as a snake. Rope has nothing to

do with my snake vision. When the rope is seen as the

rope, the snake vision disappears and along with it

any associated fears and reactions, such as increased

blood pressure and other body-reactions, which appear

to be as real as the snake, as long as snake is

perceived.

 

In contrast, in sRRiShTi-dRRiShTi, 'it is there,

therefore I see it', there is no subjective error

involved but there can still be an objective error.

Rope is there and therefore I see the rope - is an

example here. Here the emphasis is the Ishwara who

created the rope for me to see. Ishwara being sum

total of all minds put together, the existence of rope

is beyond the notions of the individual mind, by

itself, since everybody (everybody's mind) sees as a

rope. We call this as objective reality. But there

is still error involved and the error becomes known

only when one inquires further. Further analysis

indicates that one can see only superimposed the

nAma-rUpa, the object form, but not the substratum,

its essential, the Brahman. This adhyAsa is objective

error of superimposition in contrast to the subjective

adhyAsa when we see a snake where there is a rope. In

both cases the knowledge of the object is incomplete

at best. This becomes evident if we try to inquire-

what is a rope? Rope is only a temporal reality or

'vyAvahArika satyam' and not an absolute reality.

Absolute reality involves non-negatability at any

time. In the process of further inquiry of the nature

of the rope, one can negate the rope in that it is no

more there as a rope, when we pull the rope apart and

discover that rope is nothing but a bundle of fibers,

assembled together. Rope is nothing but assemblage of

something else that exists. Rope exists 'out-there'

since its constituents, such as fibers, exists 'out

there'. Thus existence of rope is due to the

existence of constituent fibers. Rope has no

independent existence apart from the existence of the

fibers. But fibers themselves are made of some other

entities or assemblage of some other existent

entities, such as, for example, molecular chains. In

fact every created object is nothing but an assemblage

of ingredients which themselves in turn are

assemblages of some other finer ingredients. Hence

rope is gone, and its place fibers are there. We can

likewise negate the fibers in discovering that it is

nothing but some assemblage of atoms, and negate the

atoms in discovering that it an assemblage of some

fundamental particles, consisting of electrons,

protons and neutrons; and thus the process can

continue indefinitely; and science has yet to find the

final truth about the rope! But what Vedanta declares,

which science echoes, is that which exists can never

cease to exist. That is the law of conservation.

Whether in the form of rope, or in the form of fibers,

atoms or fundamental particles, existence is never

dismissed - what is dismissed in each step is only

name and a form or nAma and rUpa, and not its

essential substratum which exists. Interestingly,

while inquiring into what is a rope, the 'dRRishyam',

there is another factor, which persists all through

the inquiry. That is the existence of a 'draShTA' or

the existence of an inquirer, who has to be there all

through the inquiry of the rope, not only as an

existent entity but also as a conscious entity, since

unconscious entity cannot inquire. It is now

increasingly recognized by particle physicists that

while the inquirer, draShTA, remains independent of

the system being investigated, the system being

investigated dRRishyam and the results that one

obtains are not independent of the inquirer. As

Vedanta emphasizes that 'chaitanya vastu' or an

inquirer remains independent while the 'jaDa vastu',

inert entity, remains as dependent and therefore has

only a dependent-existence.

 

Whether the individual mind sees the rope as a rope or

as a snake, the fact remains that existence of rope is

not independent of the individual perception and its

limitations. Here the error is more subtle in the

sense that not only I see the rope but others also see

the rope. Hence, the rope has an objective reality,

as real as the others who are seeing it. However,

upon further inquiry, the existence of even the rope

is not confirmed unless a seer is there to see it.

Object may be there but unless I cognize it, its

existence, at best is conditional, depending on the

validity of the pramANa or means of knowledge that is

confirming the existence of the rope. In one way or

the other, either through my mind or some other's

mind, the perception, volition, cognition and

recognition has to take place before the existence of

the rope can be established. A conscious entity or

self-existent entity has to be there to provide the

support for the existence of the dRRishyam or jaDam or

inert object. Thus, we are back to the existence of

draShTA, seer to establish the existence of the

dRRishyam, the object of awareness. Hence whether the

judgments about the nature of jagat are notional

(taking a rope as a snake) or relatively real (rope,

fibers, atoms, electrons, protons, etc.), what is

absolutely real in the whole process is only the one

who is making the judgment call about the, jagat.

Without the seer, draShTA present, the dRRiShTi,

perception cannot occur. The drashTA, the seer is

only one that is absolutely real or non-negatable in

the seer-seen duality. In dRRiShTi-sRRiShTi, as well

as in sRRiShTi- dRRiShTi, the confirmation of the

presence of universe rests squarely on the individual

seer, draShTA. Without the analysis of the seer, the

analysis of the jagat, seen, has only relative reality

or transactional reality or vyAvahArika satyam. In

analyzing the seer-seen relation, that is, the

individual and the jagat and their relation, the

analysis must include, therefore, a total system (seer

and the seen) since seen, the jagat, cannot be

independently established without the seer present.

Whereas, the seer can exist without the jagat, the

seen.

 

Mandukya Upanishad, like a true scientific treatise,

recognizes that analysis of the waking state only to

establish the validity of jagat can lead to an

erroneous conclusion, since it constitutes only one

third of the human experience, and thus ignores the

other two states of experiences, dream and deep sleep

states. For a waker, dream is not real, and only the

waking state is real. But that is the conclusion of

the waker, and not the dreamer about a state of

consciousness that is different from the waking state.

Just as for a waker the waking state is real and not

the dream state, for a dreamer the dream state is

equally real. Shankara says in AtmAbodha 'sakAle

satyavad bhAti prabodhe satyasad bhavet' - as long as

one is dreaming the dream state is real. Only when

awakened to the higher state, the dream appears to be

unreal. The unreality of the dream world can be

established not in the dream, but by awakening to the

higher state of consciousness. Actually the use of the

words higher and lower is only with reference to each

states but in reality that which is independent of all

the states alone is real, and the highest. For

convenience, this state is referred to in Mandukya as

the fourth state, 'turya' state, just to differentiate

it from the other three states, although it is there

in all the three states as the very substratum. Just

as gold is there as the very substratum of the bangle,

ring or necklace. In principle gold is different from

bangle, ring or necklace, even as we transform the

bangle into a ring and then into a necklace. Gold

remains as gold in all the three states yet it is

different from each state in the sense that gold is

not a bangle or a ring or a necklace. The latter are

only the names and forms for the substratum that does

not undergo any modification during the changing names

and forms. Names and forms are superficial projection

of the substratum, gold, which itself never undergoes

any modification during transformation or 'vikAra' of

the changing names and forms. In the same way, the

universe is a superficial projection of the names and

forms on the substratum, which itself does not undergo

any modifications during the changing names and forms.

Taittiriya Upanishad says: 'yato vA imAni bhUtani

jAyante, yena jAtAni jIvanti, yat

prayantyabhisaMvisanti | tat vij~nAsaswa | tad

brahmeti | ' - 'That from which the whole universe

arose, by which it is sustained and into which it goes

back, know that, that is Brahman'. From which the

whole gold ornaments arose, by which it is sustained

and into which it goes back is the

material cause, upAdAna kAraNa for the universe of

gold ornaments. In the case of gold ornaments, the

ornament maker, goldsmith, who is the nimitta kAraNa,

is different from the upAdAna kAraNa, gold. But for

the creation of the entire universe, the Taittiriya

establishes by the above statement that the Brahman is

the upAdana kAraNa, since it is sustained by Him and

goes back into Him. However, since Brahman being

'ekameva advitIyam', one without a second, and a

conscious entity, he has to be both upAdAna kAraNa and

nimitta kAraNa. Is that possible? How can both the

nimitta kAraNa and upAdana kAraNa can be one and the

same? This is exactly what is learned from the

analysis of the dream state of experience. If I am

dreaming a blazing fire of a big high rise building, I

am a fireman who is trying to put out the fire using a

fire hose and a water jet, and there are many

spectators watching the burning of the building, then

my dream world consists of both conscious entities

like myself and the spectators, as well as jaDa vastu,

the building, fire, the hose, the water etc. But the

whole dream world of chara and acara, movable and

immovable or chaitanya and achaitanya vastu, conscious

and unconscious entities all arose from me, the waking

mind, sustained by my mind and it goes back into my

mind. My waking mind is the upAdana kAraNa as well as

the nimitta kAraNa. Thus dream analysis points out to

the fact that it is not difficult to conceive both

causes, the nimitta and upAdAna kAraNa can be one and

the same. For me to create a dream world, I should

have the knowledge of the creation. I cannot dream

'gAgAbUbu' because I do not know what 'gAgAbUbu' is. I

am the 'sarvaj~na' of my dream as well as the 'sarva

shaktimAn', since I can create as well as annihilate

it. But most important thing is that in the creation

process of the dream jagat, both unconscious entities

or jaDa vastu as well as conscious entities such as

myself, the firefighter and the surrounding

spectators, etc., all are emanating from me, who was a

waker as well as the dreamer. Unconscious entity

cannot dream. Are the objects in my dream such as

building and the

fire etc., real? They appear to be real as long as the

dream lasts but when I am awaken, they are resolved

into me, the material cause. Are they not real? As a

firefighter in the dream, never for a moment I will

doubt that the building under fire is not real or the

water that is putting the fire is not real. Yet when I

awaken, there are no ashes anywhere nor the bed is wet

with the dream water. All are resolved into me, the

waking mind that was projecting the world of

plurality. They arise in me, are sustained by me and

go back into me. Hence I am the upAdAna kAraNa or

material cause for my dream. In the case of the

bangle, it is real only with respect to the name and

form and utility. Use of bangle is different from the

use of a ring and so on. Yet from the point of gold

all the ornaments have only a temporal reality or

vyAvahArika satyam. All the differences, 'sajAti,

vijAti and swagata bhedA'-s, internal differences and

external relations, belong to the nAma and rUpa only

but not to the essential substratum that sustains all

these nAma and rUpa. What is real is defined in

Vedanta from pAramArthika level as that which remains

the same in all three periods of time, 'trikAla

abAdhitam satyam'. What is unreal, asatyam or

tuchchham, is that which never existed with any locus.

nAma and rUpa such as bangle or ring or necklace,

cannot be taken as real since they do not fall under

the category of 'trikAla abAdhitam', nor they are

non-existent since bangle exists that is different

from ring etc. Hence, they are neither real nor

unreal, and Advaita Vedanta calls this as 'mithyA' or

apparently real, since upon inquiry each resolves into

its substratum, which is real. Gold plus many

varieties of ornaments is not plurality nor duality,

but Advaita only from the point of Gold. It is just

one gold into many ornaments. They appear to be many

but they all resolve into one upon appropriate

inquiry. In order to see the oneness of the gold in

all golden ornaments it is not necessary to melt all

the ornaments. By proper discriminative intellect, one

can see the gold, in spite of the existence of

plurality of the golden ornaments. In the dream world

there is a plurality that appears to be true, but

since they are negated by waking, they are not real

since they do not fulfill the definition of 'trikAla

abAdhitam'. They are not unreal either, since they do

exist in the dream. Hence they are apparently real or

mithyA supported by that, which is real, the waking

mind. Extending this analogy further, even the waking

word is not real since it is negated by the dreamer

and deep sleeper, and hence does not fulfill the

definition of 'trikAla abAdhitam'.

But what is real that is not negated in the three

states of consciousness, Mandukya Upanishad declares,

is the consciousness, I, the substratum for all the

three states and independent of the three states. Just

as gold does not depend on bangle or ring for it to be

gold, whereas bangle and ring depend on gold for them

to be a bangle or a ring; I, the consciousness does

not depend on the waking state, dream state or deep

sleep state to be myself, but all the three states

depend on me, the consciousness. The three worlds,

waking or dream or deep sleep, do not establish my

existence, whereas I establish the existence of the

three worlds. They depend on me whereas I do not

depend on them. Krishna says in Ch.9 of B.G., " mayA

tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta mUrtinA | matsthAni

sarva bhUtAni na cha aham teShu avasthitaH | " - I

pervade this entire universe in an unmanifested form,

all beings are in me but I am not in them, meaning

they depend on me but I don't depend on them'. All are

names and forms on the substratum, which is me. My

existence is independent of them while their existence

depends on my existence. Thus without me, the seer,

the world is not seen.

 

Now, examining back our original question 'how can we

account for that which is one without a second, which

is a conscious-existent entity giving rise to

unconscious or inert jagat, we have resolved this with

the help of the scriptures, using the analogy of the

dream world. Thus, the jaDam that we see is only

apparent and not real. Hence there is no real jaDam

that emanated from the chaitanya vastu. The apparent

becomes apparent, when we recognize the substratum

behind the apparent. The apparent can appear to be

real, if we do not realize the nature of the truth

that is eternal. When the appearance is resolved then

there is only the consciousness that is real which is

the substratum. Hence what is there before creation -

sad eva saumya idam agra AsIt - existence alone was

there in the beginning before the creation. That

existence was not an inert existence since scripture

says - tad aikShata - it saw - Hence it is

conscious-existence. That existence-consciousness

which is Brahman remains the essential substratum from

which the whole world arises, sustains and goes back.

Creation is just the projection of the plurality in

terms of nAma and rUpa. But in and through the nAma

and rUpa, the essence - 'sat chit Ananda' aspect

remains unaltered, just as gold remains as gold in the

changing names and forms. Hence advaita remains

advaita, in spite of the apparent dvaita. It is

non-duality in spite of duality. Dvaita is not

contradictory to Advaita when one inquires into the

nature of the reality of the plurality. Dvaita exists

at vyAvahArika level or relative plane and at

pAramArthika level or absolute plane it resolves into

Advaita. Hence, Krishna declares in Gita -

'avyakAdIni bhUtani vyakta madhyAni bhArata | avyakta

nidhanAnyeva .' Before the creation it is unmanifested

(existence) and with creation it is manifested (with

names and forms) and in the dissolution it goes back

to unmanifested (existence). Hence, creation is only

an apparent transformation of what was there before

creation - existence-conscious principle, which is

infinite or unlimited. It is easy to see in the case

of the dream world that the waking mind is the

substratum from which the whole dream world arises, is

sustained and goes back into it and hence is the

upAdAna kAraNa for the dream. How can we establish

that the waking world is the projection of one's

consciousness, which is one without a second. Bhagavan

Ramana Maharshi discusses this

beautifully in his Upadesha Sara.

 

dRRishya vAritam chittamAtmAnaH |

chittwadarshanam tattvadarshanam ||

 

If one removes from his mind that objects that are

seen, that is, removes all the names and the forms

associated with the object thoughts, what remains is

the essence of the mind, cittwam, and the vision of

the essence of the mind or substratum of the mind is

the vision of the reality.

 

Locus of every thought is nothing but an object

outside. When I see a chair, I have a chair-thought in

my mind. The locus of the chair-thought is the object,

chair, outside. But even though the chair is outside,

the 'chair-thought' is inside my mind. There is what

is known as 'avinAbhAva sambadha' - 'a relationless

relationship' between the object chair outside and

the chair-thought inside the mind. Without the

chair-thought in the mind, the object chair is not

perceived. 'Out of mind is out of sight' is a valid

statement based on our experience, because of this

relationless relationship. Thus every object outside

reduces to an object thought inside the mind. Without

the object thought inside the mind, the object outside

is not recognized. Thus locus of every thought is an

object, either existing outside but seen via the

senses by the mind, or it could be a recollection of

an object by the mind from my memory bank.

 

However, when I say that I have seen the chair, what

is seen is the thought in my mind. The thought in the

mind is seen or recognized only when I am aware of the

thought. That is the awareness has to illumine the

chair-thought in my mind, then only I can say 'this is

a chair'. If the thought is away from my awareness, I

cannot say ' this is a chair' since I am not aware of

the chair or the chair-thought. Thus every part of the

chair thought is immersed in my awareness, then only I

am aware of the thought. Thus the object-thought

cannot be away from my awareness. Actually the thought

arises in my awareness, sustained by my awareness and

goes back into my awareness. Although we are using the

word - my awareness - awareness is not an object that

I possess, since it is not another thought. It is

because of which the thought is seen. " yan manasA na

manute yena AhuH mano matam " - " that which the mind

cannot think (it is not an object to think), but

because of which the mind has the capacity to think "

is the awareness, says Kenopanishad. Hence awareness

is not some kind of quality that I possess The word

'my awareness' is like 'my happiness' - It is not a

thing that I possess - It is about myself or my own

nature - I am that happiness or I am that awareness

and not ' I have happiness nor I have awareness'. This

is important to recognize this since some Acharyas

have misinterpreted that 'awareness' is a quality or

attribute that I possess. In fact thought-wave is

nothing but a perturbation in my awareness just as the

wave is a perturbation in the ocean. Wave is engulfed

by water; it arises from water, is sustained by water

and goes back into water - every part of the wave is

nothing but water and water alone. Wave is nothing but

the name and a form, for, it is just a perturbation of

water. If I suppress the wave, what is left is only

the water that supports the wave. I do not have to

suppress the wave to see that wave is nothing but

water. I have to see in and through the wave

discarding its superfluous form and the name

associated with it- then I see the substratum that

supports the wave. Just the same way, every thought

wave that is illumined by my mind is nothing but

awareness alone. Thus we have come to conclusion that

every object outside is nothing but the thought inside

the mind, and every thought in the mind is nothing but

a perturbation in the awareness itself. It cannot be

away from my awareness since I am aware of the

thought. Hence, thought is nothing but what is known

as adhyAsa, a superimposition of a name and form on

the awareness - a form and thus a name is given for

the perturbation. It is not a 'permanent

transformation' or 'pariNAma' of awareness, since when

I see a chair, I have a chair thought and then when I

turn my head and see a table, the chair thought is

instantaneously replaced by a table thought. Where did

the chair thought go? It went back where it came from,

into myself. Thus all thoughts arise in my

awareness, are sustained by my awareness and go back

into my awareness - thus awareness is the upAdana

kAraNa for all the thoughts. Hence Bhagavan Ramana

says in the above shloka that if we discard the names

and forms from all objective thoughts, what remains in

all the thoughts is nothing but the essence of the

mind, which is nothing but 'tattvam' the essential

truth - the awareness.

 

Thus world is nothing but 'idam vastu', this and this

and this - a sum total of all objects are nothing but

thoughts in my mind and each thought is nothing but a

perturbation in my consciousness. Just as each gold

ornament is nothing but perturbation of gold into a

form with a name. Gold does not transform into bangle

or ring or necklace. Gold remains as gold in and

through the transformation of names and forms.

Similarly, the awareness

Is the very substratum of the universe, and the jagat

is the projection of the names and forms in awareness.

Thus awareness alone is there from the beginning, and

it is one without a second. Just as gold plus

varieties of ornaments is just one gold, awareness

plus the jagat is nothing but just one awareness

alone. Just as gold does not become ornaments; gold

remains as gold existing as ornaments. Similarly,

existence-awareness, remains as such while existing as

jagat. Thus, jagat is only a superfluous

transformation of Brahman, what is known as adhyAsa.

Hence jaDam or insentient is not created out of a

chaitanya vastu, it is only an appearance or vikAra.

Thus dvaita is only apparent but the truth is Advaita,

one without a second. This is beautifully illustrated

by Uddalaka in Chandogya Upanishad using three

examples.

 

" yathA saumya, ekena lohamaNinA sarvam lohamayam

vij~nAtam syAt

vAchArambhaNam vikAro nAmadheyam lohamityeva satyam | "

 

" yathA saumya, ekena mRRitpiNDena sarvam mRRiNmayam

vij~nAtam syAt

vAchArambhaNam vikAro nAmadheyam mRRittiketyeva satyam

| "

 

" yathA saumya ekena nakha nikRRintanena sarvam

kArShNAyasam vij~nAtam

syAt vAchArambhaNam vikAro nAmadheyam kRRiShNAyasam

ityeva satyam evam saumya sa Adesho bhavatIti | "

 

'just as by examining one gold ornament, the nature of

the entire gold is known. Gold ornament is nothing but

gold with the name and form starting from the

conception of the thought to creation of the name and

form - a mere superimposed transformation for the gold

- gold alone is real'. ' just as by examining a mud

pot the nature of the entire mud pots is known. Mud

pot is nothing but mud with the name and form starting

from the conception of the thought to creation of the

name and form – a mere-superimposed transformation of

mud - mud alone is real'. ' just as by examining a

nail-cutter the nature of the entire black(wrought)

iron is known. Nail- cutter is nothing but

wrought-iron with a name and form starting from the

conception of the thought to the creation of the name

and form - a mere superimposed transformation of

wrought- iron - iron alone is real'.

 

Thus in each example, Uddalaka emphasizes the

transformed product is nothing but the upAdAna kAraNa,

the material cause from which it is formed, sustained

and goes back into. The material cause alone is the

satyam or real, and is the 'sat padArtham'.

Furthermore, creation involves a superfluous

transformation (vikAra) of the upAdana kAraNa. The

transformation starts with an idea or thought -

vAchArambhaNam, obviously, an idea by an intelligent

entity or chaitanya vastu. Hence what is real is the

sat and chit alone in all creations.

 

Thus existence-consciousness alone was there in the

beginning, as one without a second, before creation,

and it decided to become many and became many. Thus

pUrNAt pUrNam udachyate - from 'adaH pUrNam which is

nothing but 'aham pUrNam' this idam pUrNam or jagat

arose. Since the jaDam cannot come out of conscious

entity, the creation is only an apparent

transformation or the plurality is only apparent just

as one mind projecting many varieties of things and

being in the dream world. Since created is not

different from the creator (upAdAna kAraNa), the one

plus many created beings is just onepUrNam. ' pUrNasya

pUrNamAdAya pUrNameva avashiShyate', when pUrNam is

added or subtracted from pUrNam, pUrNam alone remains.

Mathematically, infinity plus minus infinity is

infinity only. From aham who is pUrNam, when the

universe, jagat which is projected, my pUrNatvam or my

completeness is not invalidated. Hence Krishna

declares in Ch.6 B.G:

 

sarvabhUtasthamAtmAnam sarvabhUtani cAtmAni |

IkShate yogayuktAtmA sarvatra samadarshanaH ||

 

'One who through yoga has realized, he sees himself in

all beings and sees all beings in him and hence he has

the equanimity everywhere'. From the point of bhakti,

Krishna emphasizes the same thing in a different form.

 

yo mAm pashyati sarvatra sarvaM ca mayi pashyati |

tasyAham na praNashyAmi sa ca me na praNashyati||

 

'Whoever sees me everywhere and everything in me, he

is never away from me and I am never away from him'.

 

Thus Bhagavatpada Shankara uses the scriptural

pramANa, yukti, logic and anubhava, experience, to

emphasize the Advaitic nature of the truth. It is

ekameva advitIyam - one without a second, since

existence of any second limits the existent first, and

neither can be pUrNam. Hence aham brahmaasmi is the

declaration of the Vedas that can be consistent with

the Advaitic nature of the reality.

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advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

> This is the talk I gave in 1999 at Chinmaya Mission,

> Madras on the day of Shankara Jayanti. It was posted

> before, but I thought it is important to recaptulate

> the doctrin of Adviata Vedanta propounded by Shankara

> Bhagavat paada.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

> --------------------------

 

Thus existence-consciousness alone was there in the

beginning, as one without a second, before creation,

and it decided to become many and became many. Thus

pUrNAt pUrNam udachyate - from 'adaH pUrNam which is

nothing but 'aham pUrNam' this idam pUrNam or jagat

arose. Since the jaDam cannot come out of conscious

entity, the creation is only an apparent

transformation or the plurality is only apparent just

as one mind projecting many varieties of things and

being in the dream world. Since created is not

different from the creator (upAdAna kAraNa), the one

plus many created beings is just onepUrNam. ' pUrNasya

pUrNamAdAya pUrNameva avashiShyate', when pUrNam is

added or subtracted from pUrNam, pUrNam alone remains.

Mathematically, infinity plus minus infinity is

infinity only. From aham who is pUrNam, when the

universe, jagat which is projected, my pUrNatvam or my

completeness is not invalidated. Hence Krishna

declares in Ch.6 B.G:

 

Namaste KSji,

 

The 'existence consciousness' became many. The nearest I can get to

accepting that; is saying that Saguna was existing in potentiality

during mahapralaya. For attributing to Nir Guna existence and

consciousness is actually creating the concept Saguna.Other than that

it is hanging on to the corner of the envelope again, due to belief

systems, superstitions or even fear of extinction.

Ramana says Saguna eventually merges with Nir Guna indicating that it

never happened at all really...........I feel it is necessary in the

end to strip all religious ideas as being of the mind only. The very

idea or attributing godlike qualities to Devas and subtle being as

real as we are or are'nt is dualistic..........Tony.

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advaitin , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote:

 

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada@> wrote:

>

> This is the talk I gave in 1999 at Chinmaya Mission,

> Madras on the day of Shankara Jayanti. It was posted

> before, but I thought it is important to recaptulate

> the doctrin of Adviata Vedanta propounded by Shankara

> Bhagavat paada.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

> --------------------------

 

Thus existence-consciousness alone was there in the

beginning, as one without a second, before creation,

and it decided to become many and became many. Thus

pUrNAt pUrNam udachyate - from 'adaH pUrNam which is

nothing but 'aham pUrNam' this idam pUrNam or jagat

arose. Since the jaDam cannot come out of conscious

entity, the creation is only an apparent

transformation or the plurality is only apparent just

as one mind projecting many varieties of things and

being in the dream world. Since created is not

different from the creator (upAdAna kAraNa), the one

plus many created beings is just onepUrNam. ' pUrNasya

pUrNamAdAya pUrNameva avashiShyate', when pUrNam is

added or subtracted from pUrNam, pUrNam alone remains.

Mathematically, infinity plus minus infinity is

infinity only. From aham who is pUrNam, when the

universe, jagat which is projected, my pUrNatvam or my

completeness is not invalidated. Hence Krishna

declares in Ch.6 B.G:

 

Namaste KSji,

 

The 'existence consciousness' became many. The nearest I can get to

accepting that; is saying that Saguna was existing in potentiality

during mahapralaya. For attributing to Nir Guna existence and

consciousness is actually creating the concept Saguna.Other than that

it is hanging on to the corner of the envelope again, due to belief

systems, superstitions or even fear of extinction.

Ramana says Saguna eventually merges with Nir Guna indicating that it

never happened at all really...........I feel it is necessary in the

end to strip all religious ideas as being of the mind only. The very

idea or attributing godlike qualities to Devas and subtle being as

real as we are or are'nt is dualistic..........Tony.

 

--- End forwarded message ---

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