new to group....how advaita can help lifelong issues?Q TO DURGAJI !

[Guest guest]

Durgaji :

 

you write :

 

(Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

and their writings, particularly in the west,

who profess to teach advaita, and *they are unqualified

in all ways to do so.* We also have students who

unfortunately (but understandably) are not

being benefited, and may be harmed by these teachings.)

 

Durgaji ! That is a sweeping statement! What exactly do you mean ?

Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

teaching advaita ?

 

PLEASE CLARIFY !

 

i know there are many western *initiated* disciples of Swami

Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda and Swami Sivananda and even Sri

Ramana bhagwan ( his western disciples) who are doing a wonderful

job of spreading the message of Advaita !

 

On another note , have you heard or read by books by Wei Wu Wei

(Author)? He is an Irishman who has written wonderful books on

Advaita and other related topics .

 

I myself enjoy reading the upanishads translated by Sanderson beck

and other westerners. Arthur Avalon ( an initiated tantrik) is one

of my favorite western authors !

 

so, we owe a lot to western authors/scholars who know both sanskrit

and English to translate many works of Adi shankara bhagvadapada,

Srimad Bhagvat gita and upanishads etc ! What about Griffith?

 

just my 2 cents

[Guest guest]

There are no geographical barriers for one,westerner or easterner to become a

teacher of Advaita as long as one has studied the subject and has in depth

knowledge.One's strong faith to propagate Advaita makes one write and teach to

people all over the world.I fully endorse the opinion expressed by Saraswathiji.

Jabalimuni

 

dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati wrote: Durgaji :

 

you write :

 

(Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

and their writings, particularly in the west,

who profess to teach advaita, and *they are unqualified

in all ways to do so.* We also have students who

unfortunately (but understandably) are not

being benefited, and may be harmed by these teachings.)

 

Durgaji ! That is a sweeping statement! What exactly do you mean ?

Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

teaching advaita ?

 

PLEASE CLARIFY !

 

i know there are many western *initiated* disciples of Swami

Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda and Swami Sivananda and even Sri

Ramana bhagwan ( his western disciples) who are doing a wonderful

job of spreading the message of Advaita !

 

On another note , have you heard or read by books by Wei Wu Wei

(Author)? He is an Irishman who has written wonderful books on

Advaita and other related topics .

 

I myself enjoy reading the upanishads translated by Sanderson beck

and other westerners. Arthur Avalon ( an initiated tantrik) is one

of my favorite western authors !

 

so, we owe a lot to western authors/scholars who know both sanskrit

and English to translate many works of Adi shankara bhagvadapada,

Srimad Bhagvat gita and upanishads etc ! What about Griffith?

 

just my 2 cents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " dhyanasaraswati "

<dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> Durgaji :

>

> you write :

>

> (Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

> and their writings, particularly in the west,

> who profess to teach advaita, and *they are unqualified

> in all ways to do so.* We also have students who

> unfortunately (but understandably) are not

> being benefited, and may be harmed by these teachings.)

>

> Durgaji ! That is a sweeping statement! What exactly do you mean ?

> Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

> Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

> teaching advaita ?

>

> PLEASE CLARIFY !

 

Namaste All,

 

I'm sorry if my statements upset anyone, which was

certainly not my intention. When you ask the question:

 

" Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

teaching advaita ? "

 

I meant neither, of those two categories.

 

There are teachers in the west, who are western,

(and who IMO would not fall under the category you offer

of 'learned ones,') who say that what they are teaching

is 'advaita.'

 

They have not been trained within any sampradaya,

their own Knowledge IMO is questionable, and they have

no ability to use the pramana of Vedanta, or

understanding of the way the teachings of Vedanta

work as a 'pramana.' They have no time-tested methodology

to use in teaching. Their motivation in teaching may

be a bit murky. And most importantly, in many ways

it seems to me, they do not really have a good understanding

of the subject, and yet say that they are teaching 'advaita,'

 

How do I know all of this? I was quite involved with many

of these popular teachers and teachings for eleven years before

meeting a teacher of traditional Advaita/Vedanta, and I

have to say, I came away from those eleven years, probably

more confused on just about every subject (not only

advaita) than I was before I went in.

 

This kind of teaching, dubbed `neo-advaita,' by some

is actually a huge phenomena in the west, which,

it seems to me that most of those blessed

by the traditional teachings of Advaita/Vedanta,

seem to know nothing about, and yet it exists.

If you look on Dennis's website, you can find

many references and articles to it there.

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/trad_neo.htm

 

Since I myself have met many of these teachers,

and attended many of their meetings over a period

of eleven years, prior to meeting a teacher of

traditional Vedanta, I do feel qualified to speak

about them and say what I feel is wrong with the

way the subject matter is being presented.

 

The problems are many, and Sri Dennisji is in the

process of writing a whole book on this large

topic, (and I hope I'm not letting the cat out of

the bag by mentioning that here), but it's a

book IMO whose time has come, and which some

might feel is overdue.

 

There are many highly trained westerners who are

wonderful teachers of Advaita/Vedanta. There

are also many highly trained easterners who are

teaching Vedanta in the west. The teachings and

teachers I was referring to have nothing to do

with those highly skilled teachers, to whom I

owe a debt I can never repay. As far as I can

tell, those skilled teachers, and these unskilled

teachers don't even seem to know of the existence

of each other. They may as well exist in parallel

universes.

 

So, what I was referring to is a relatively new phenomena,

perhaps not more than 15 years old. It has had a large

impact on western seekers, and in my direct experience,

and from what I have observed, these untrained, unskilled

and unlearned teachers, and these exceedingly loose, imprecise,

vague (and actually incorrect)teachings, which purport to

be on the subject of advaita, can do, and have done,

a lot of harm.

 

Now, I am aware that is a very strong statement to

make on a forum of this kind, where no doubt, saying

anything negative about any spiritual teacher or

teaching would be frowned upon, (and it is also off-topic).

 

So, I know it isn't the type of thing one usually says,

One is generally not critical of another teacher or

teaching. It just isn't done.

 

So I apologize if I have transgressed the bounderies

of acceptable behavior by doing so. However, my original

post was written out of concern for someone whom I

felt might have been influenced by these

types of teachings, which sometimes make statements which

are false, and sometimes take statements that are true, but

when not understood within the total context which

Vedanta provides, can actually do harm to the individual

who takes them as true, but who does not understand them.

 

The teachings of nonduality need to be given gradually

step by step, taking the student from where he or she

now feels him or herself to be, (a body, mind sense organs

individual), and carefully and thoroughly guiding

that person's mind to the truth. IMO taking short cuts

is not advisable, nor useful, or safe.

 

Perhaps (if this were to prove to be a 'hot button' issue

on the forum), it might be better for all of us to wait

until Sri Dennis's book comes out, read it, and then

discuss this topic if we want to. Because I am sure

that Dennis, being so totally thorough in everything

that he undertakes, and so precise in what he writes,

will be able to educate those of us who care to know

about all of this in a way that is very clear.

 

And perhaps, (as I have found), those who are really

dedicated to the teachings of Vedanta don't need or

want to know about any of this at all.

 

Vedanta is so thorough, so benign, so complete,

why bother with anything else, unless pointing out

the problems, which have been witnessed and

experienced first-hand, might prove helpful to someone

who asked.

 

Pranams,

Durga

[Guest guest]

Dear Durgaji,

 

In my opinion, there are real teachers and bogus ones, whether it is

Advaitha or any other system of knowledge; this was beautifully told

(in a nutshell) by AdiSankara himself in Bhajagovindam - although

there is a difference of opinion about its authorship in modern days -

as, " ...udaranimittham bahukRitha vEsham... " .

 

I was told by a very old and learned man (who lived as a family man

with no pretenses to being a teacher), that those who hold themselves

out as teachers will doubtless come under this category while those

who get even a slight glimpse of the Bliss will remain content and try

to prolong that bliss. I then asked him about Ramana Maharshi,

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and others who are famous. His reply was that

they themselves did not go for publicity at all but some of their

Sishyas wanted them to be known. Their only mistake was that they did

not stop the Sishyas from doing that.

 

In my experience, this gives some sort of litmus test for determining

the real worth of a teacher. If we find a guru, swami or acharya [or

any other appellation] coming out through the media and getting

publicized, and promising miraculous powers/universal cures/remedies

for the troubles of the common man, we can be sure that this is

nothing more than an advertising gimmick and that there is no real

stuff there. But, in the conditions of the modern day most of us tend

to follow the western style of " fads " and hence we (here in India, at

least) are now very often asked, " Which Swami do you follow? " . When I

say that I don't have any of these contemporary gurus but only the old

ones like Sankaracharya, Sringeri Acharya etc., it is looked down upon.

 

In the rush of today's world, people want everything in capsule form

and get immediate effect (instant Brahmananda!). That gives rise to

misuse in every field including spiritual guidance and bogus people

getting rich!

 

IMHO, mere academic knowledge of Advaitha philosophy will not give any

spiritual benefit; our way of living and thinking have also to be

modified. Teachers who can bring about the latter are rare.

 

Pranams,

 

sankar

 

 

advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote:

>

> advaitin , " dhyanasaraswati "

> <dhyanasaraswati@> wrote:

> >

> > Durgaji :

> >

> > you write :

> >

> > (Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

> > and their writings, particularly in the west,

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

imo the message of the neo-advaitins can be summed up, that: " there is

no-self to attain anything " . An " ego " doesn't want to hear this.

 

Isn't there a hedonistic element in the chase of enlightenment, or

pride in knowledge ? [small self]

 

here is Tony Parsons

 

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMa4cAlnwjw>

 

Era

 

 

advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote:

>

> advaitin , " dhyanasaraswati "

> <dhyanasaraswati@> wrote:

> >

> > Durgaji :

> >

> > you write :

> >

> > (Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

> > and their writings, particularly in the west,

> > who profess to teach advaita, and *they are unqualified

> > in all ways to do so.* We also have students who

> > unfortunately (but understandably) are not

> > being benefited, and may be harmed by these teachings.)

> >

> > Durgaji ! That is a sweeping statement! What exactly do you mean ?

> > Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

> > Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

> > teaching advaita ?

> >

> > PLEASE CLARIFY !

>

> Namaste All,

>

> I'm sorry if my statements upset anyone, which was

> certainly not my intention. When you ask the question:

>

> " Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones ) teaching

> Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the west

> teaching advaita ? "

>

> I meant neither, of those two categories.

>

> There are teachers in the west, who are western,

> (and who IMO would not fall under the category you offer

> of 'learned ones,') who say that what they are teaching

> is 'advaita.'

>

> They have not been trained within any sampradaya,

> their own Knowledge IMO is questionable, and they have

> no ability to use the pramana of Vedanta, or

> understanding of the way the teachings of Vedanta

> work as a 'pramana.' They have no time-tested methodology

> to use in teaching. Their motivation in teaching may

> be a bit murky. And most importantly, in many ways

> it seems to me, they do not really have a good understanding

> of the subject, and yet say that they are teaching 'advaita,'

>

> How do I know all of this? I was quite involved with many

> of these popular teachers and teachings for eleven years before

> meeting a teacher of traditional Advaita/Vedanta, and I

> have to say, I came away from those eleven years, probably

> more confused on just about every subject (not only

> advaita) than I was before I went in.

>

> This kind of teaching, dubbed `neo-advaita,' by some

> is actually a huge phenomena in the west, which,

> it seems to me that most of those blessed

> by the traditional teachings of Advaita/Vedanta,

> seem to know nothing about, and yet it exists.

> If you look on Dennis's website, you can find

> many references and articles to it there.

> http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/trad_neo.htm

>

> Since I myself have met many of these teachers,

> and attended many of their meetings over a period

> of eleven years, prior to meeting a teacher of

> traditional Vedanta, I do feel qualified to speak

> about them and say what I feel is wrong with the

> way the subject matter is being presented.

>

> The problems are many, and Sri Dennisji is in the

> process of writing a whole book on this large

> topic, (and I hope I'm not letting the cat out of

> the bag by mentioning that here), but it's a

> book IMO whose time has come, and which some

> might feel is overdue.

>

> There are many highly trained westerners who are

> wonderful teachers of Advaita/Vedanta. There

> are also many highly trained easterners who are

> teaching Vedanta in the west. The teachings and

> teachers I was referring to have nothing to do

> with those highly skilled teachers, to whom I

> owe a debt I can never repay. As far as I can

> tell, those skilled teachers, and these unskilled

> teachers don't even seem to know of the existence

> of each other. They may as well exist in parallel

> universes.

>

> So, what I was referring to is a relatively new phenomena,

> perhaps not more than 15 years old. It has had a large

> impact on western seekers, and in my direct experience,

> and from what I have observed, these untrained, unskilled

> and unlearned teachers, and these exceedingly loose, imprecise,

> vague (and actually incorrect)teachings, which purport to

> be on the subject of advaita, can do, and have done,

> a lot of harm.

>

> Now, I am aware that is a very strong statement to

> make on a forum of this kind, where no doubt, saying

> anything negative about any spiritual teacher or

> teaching would be frowned upon, (and it is also off-topic).

>

> So, I know it isn't the type of thing one usually says,

> One is generally not critical of another teacher or

> teaching. It just isn't done.

>

> So I apologize if I have transgressed the bounderies

> of acceptable behavior by doing so. However, my original

> post was written out of concern for someone whom I

> felt might have been influenced by these

> types of teachings, which sometimes make statements which

> are false, and sometimes take statements that are true, but

> when not understood within the total context which

> Vedanta provides, can actually do harm to the individual

> who takes them as true, but who does not understand them.

>

> The teachings of nonduality need to be given gradually

> step by step, taking the student from where he or she

> now feels him or herself to be, (a body, mind sense organs

> individual), and carefully and thoroughly guiding

> that person's mind to the truth. IMO taking short cuts

> is not advisable, nor useful, or safe.

>

> Perhaps (if this were to prove to be a 'hot button' issue

> on the forum), it might be better for all of us to wait

> until Sri Dennis's book comes out, read it, and then

> discuss this topic if we want to. Because I am sure

> that Dennis, being so totally thorough in everything

> that he undertakes, and so precise in what he writes,

> will be able to educate those of us who care to know

> about all of this in a way that is very clear.

>

> And perhaps, (as I have found), those who are really

> dedicated to the teachings of Vedanta don't need or

> want to know about any of this at all.

>

> Vedanta is so thorough, so benign, so complete,

> why bother with anything else, unless pointing out

> the problems, which have been witnessed and

> experienced first-hand, might prove helpful to someone

> who asked.

>

> Pranams,

> Durga

>

[Guest guest]

Dearest Durga-ji :

 

No! Your Statements did not upset me ; on the contrary , i was taken

by surprise. As you know, i hold you and smt.Padmaji in high esteem !

You two are verily the 'Gargi ' and 'Maitreyi' of this male dominated

Satsangha . Of course , you don't want to know who the 'Lopamudra' is

of this forum ... a little humor there , if you don't mind .

 

Well, after reading your explanations , i am convinced that you have

also been takesn for a ride in your spiritual quest just like me. Not

surprising in the least ! we women are indeed vulnerable and an easy

prey to those so called 'wandering ' monks trying to market

spirituality in this jet age !

 

i am glad you posted that Link to dennisji web site and i had a quick

look at it. ONE ARTICLE THAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION WAS 'WHAT IS NEO-

ADVAITA' BY JAMES SCHWARTZ. IT IS AN INTERESTING 'READ' .

 

While i had no problems with what James Schwartz said about Rajneesh

Bhagwan, i was not Particularly thrilled with what James Schwartz had

to say about Swami Vivekananda

 

" In approximately the last one hundred years Vedanta has suffered an

apparent change largely as a result of the teachings of Vivekananda

around the turn of the twentieth century. Its basic function as a

means of Self knowledge became confused with the doctrines of Yoga

because Vivekananda who had a profound influence on the West's

understanding of Vedanta (probably unintentionally) reduced it

to `jnana' (knowledge) yoga, one of the many branches of Yoga.

 

i did not read the rest of the article . i am sure Jamws Shwartz has

good credentials - after all he comes from the

Chinmayananda/Dayananda school but somehow i could not take him

seriously after what he wrote about Swami Vivekananda ! Sorry ! we

all have our own weaknesses !

 

Durgaji on another note WOULD YOU COMPARE 'BREAST MILK' TO

TRADITIONAL VEDANTA AND FORMULA MILK TO 'NEO VEDANTA' - JUST

WONDERING !

 

 

WITH REGARDS

 

 

advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote:

>

> advaitin , " dhyanasaraswati "

> <dhyanasaraswati@> wrote:

> >

> > Durgaji :

> >

> > you write :

> >

> > (Now days we have a proliferation of teachers,

> > and their writings, particularly in the west,

> > who profess to teach advaita, and *they are unqualified

> > in all ways to do so.* We also have students who

> > unfortunately (but understandably) are not

> > being benefited, and may be harmed by these teachings.)

> >

> > Durgaji ! That is a sweeping statement! What exactly do you

mean ?

> > Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones )

teaching

> > Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the

west

> > teaching advaita ?

> >

> > PLEASE CLARIFY !

>

> Namaste All,

>

> I'm sorry if my statements upset anyone, which was

> certainly not my intention. When you ask the question:

>

> " Do you mean teachers ( who are westerners - learned ones )

teaching

> Advaita or Easterners( learned ones from India) who are in the

west

> teaching advaita ? "

>

> I meant neither, of those two categories.

>

> There are teachers in the west, who are western,

> (and who IMO would not fall under the category you offer

> of 'learned ones,') who say that what they are teaching

> is 'advaita.'

>

> They have not been trained within any sampradaya,

> their own Knowledge IMO is questionable, and they have

> no ability to use the pramana of Vedanta, or

> understanding of the way the teachings of Vedanta

> work as a 'pramana.' They have no time-tested methodology

> to use in teaching. Their motivation in teaching may

> be a bit murky. And most importantly, in many ways

> it seems to me, they do not really have a good understanding

> of the subject, and yet say that they are teaching 'advaita,'

>

> How do I know all of this? I was quite involved with many

> of these popular teachers and teachings for eleven years before

> meeting a teacher of traditional Advaita/Vedanta, and I

> have to say, I came away from those eleven years, probably

> more confused on just about every subject (not only

> advaita) than I was before I went in.

>

> This kind of teaching, dubbed `neo-advaita,' by some

> is actually a huge phenomena in the west, which,

> it seems to me that most of those blessed

> by the traditional teachings of Advaita/Vedanta,

> seem to know nothing about, and yet it exists.

> If you look on Dennis's website, you can find

> many references and articles to it there.

> http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/trad_neo.htm

>

> Since I myself have met many of these teachers,

> and attended many of their meetings over a period

> of eleven years, prior to meeting a teacher of

> traditional Vedanta, I do feel qualified to speak

> about them and say what I feel is wrong with the

> way the subject matter is being presented.

>

> The problems are many, and Sri Dennisji is in the

> process of writing a whole book on this large

> topic, (and I hope I'm not letting the cat out of

> the bag by mentioning that here), but it's a

> book IMO whose time has come, and which some

> might feel is overdue.

>

> There are many highly trained westerners who are

> wonderful teachers of Advaita/Vedanta. There

> are also many highly trained easterners who are

> teaching Vedanta in the west. The teachings and

> teachers I was referring to have nothing to do

> with those highly skilled teachers, to whom I

> owe a debt I can never repay. As far as I can

> tell, those skilled teachers, and these unskilled

> teachers don't even seem to know of the existence

> of each other. They may as well exist in parallel

> universes.

>

> So, what I was referring to is a relatively new phenomena,

> perhaps not more than 15 years old. It has had a large

> impact on western seekers, and in my direct experience,

> and from what I have observed, these untrained, unskilled

> and unlearned teachers, and these exceedingly loose, imprecise,

> vague (and actually incorrect)teachings, which purport to

> be on the subject of advaita, can do, and have done,

> a lot of harm.

>

> Now, I am aware that is a very strong statement to

> make on a forum of this kind, where no doubt, saying

> anything negative about any spiritual teacher or

> teaching would be frowned upon, (and it is also off-topic).

>

> So, I know it isn't the type of thing one usually says,

> One is generally not critical of another teacher or

> teaching. It just isn't done.

>

> So I apologize if I have transgressed the bounderies

> of acceptable behavior by doing so. However, my original

> post was written out of concern for someone whom I

> felt might have been influenced by these

> types of teachings, which sometimes make statements which

> are false, and sometimes take statements that are true, but

> when not understood within the total context which

> Vedanta provides, can actually do harm to the individual

> who takes them as true, but who does not understand them.

>

> The teachings of nonduality need to be given gradually

> step by step, taking the student from where he or she

> now feels him or herself to be, (a body, mind sense organs

> individual), and carefully and thoroughly guiding

> that person's mind to the truth. IMO taking short cuts

> is not advisable, nor useful, or safe.

>

> Perhaps (if this were to prove to be a 'hot button' issue

> on the forum), it might be better for all of us to wait

> until Sri Dennis's book comes out, read it, and then

> discuss this topic if we want to. Because I am sure

> that Dennis, being so totally thorough in everything

> that he undertakes, and so precise in what he writes,

> will be able to educate those of us who care to know

> about all of this in a way that is very clear.

>

> And perhaps, (as I have found), those who are really

> dedicated to the teachings of Vedanta don't need or

> want to know about any of this at all.

>

> Vedanta is so thorough, so benign, so complete,

> why bother with anything else, unless pointing out

> the problems, which have been witnessed and

> experienced first-hand, might prove helpful to someone

> who asked.

>

> Pranams,

> Durga

>