Qualifications of the Seeker of the Truth

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

I want to change the subject matter of the thread to keep us focused

on the topic instead of using 'names and forms.' Let us continue with

the discussions which have already provided valuable isights on the

core of advaita philosophy. I believe that the central point of the

ongoing discussion is " Atmajnanam. " The key questions that often

arise are: Who is best qualified to provide the Atmajnanam? What are

the characteristics of the seeker and the teacher? These perennial

questions often arise to most of us at some point of time or

otherwise. Vedanta distinguishes between paravidya (everlasting

unchanging wisdom) and aparavidya (knowledge bounded by the space and

time). The Upanishads and in particular Bhagavad Gita provide the

necessary insights to resolve the puzzles generated by the creative

mind on questions related to Atmajnanam.. The Upanishads,

Bhagavadgita and Adi Sankara suggest that the most qualified Guru who

can provide you the guidance for Atmajnanam is the Divine within You!

For example in Bhagavad Gita (chapter 2, verse 29) categorizes the

seekers who want to attain Atmajnanam:

Aashcharyavat pashyati kashchid enam

Aashcharyavad vadati tathaiva chaanyah;

Aashcharyavacchainam anyah shrinoti

Shrutwaapyenam veda na chaiva kashchit.

 

Hardly anyone perceives this self as being marvelous; Someone

likewise speaks of it as being wondrous; some others hear of it as

being incredible and many others hearing, do not understand!

 

By saying `Hardly anyone perceives this Atman as marvelous,' the Lord

intends to show that the Atman is something wonderful, so that the

individual who succeeds in perceiving it is very rare to meet with in

this world, and when that individual perceives and sees it as

something marvelous. The Atman is not perceived even as worldly

objects are objectively perceived through the senses, mind and

intellect. This vision is transcendental and unique. When nothing but

the Atman exists in the consciousness the Atman perceives itself by

itself. During this perception the seer, the act of seeing and the

object of sight cannot be differentiated.

 

By the words " someone likewise speaks thereof as wondrous, " the Lord

shows that all great Jivas who have realized the self cannot describe

the character of the Atman, so as to make others understand it. Those

Brahmanishtas alone who have fully realized the truth about God and

are well-versed in the Vedas and other scriptures (Shrotriyas) can

describe the Atman and their description too is marvelous. That is to

say, the character of the Atman cannot be described even as an object

of the world is described, so as to convey to another a correct

impression of the same. This description is transcendental and

wonderful in character.

 

All the illustrations employed to expound the character of the Atman

throw light only on a partial aspect of the Atman. None of them

brings out its character fully. There being no object in the world

analogous to the Atman, nothing can illustrate it fully.

Nevertheless, Brahmanishtas indicate its character by many a

marvelous hint, following both the positive and negative methods;

this is what is meant by `speaking of the Atman as marvelous.' In

reality the Atman, being outside the range of speech, cannot be

definitely and clearly described in words.

 

Lord Krishna through this verse shows that among those seekers who

take interest in hearing the description of the Atman Only few

possess virtuous conduct, purity of heart and reverence as well as

faith in God. That is to say, objects of the world which they

formerly considered as real, attractive and embodying happiness, and

the physical body etc, which they regarded as their very self, they

now hear of as transient, perishable, embodiments of sorrow and

material in character, and of the Atman as something quite different

from them. This new recognition fills them with wonder. For the truth

about the Atman is something which they had never heard of or

understood before, and it bears no affinity with any worldly object;

hence its description sounds to them as something very strange.

Moreover, they listen to it fully immersed with undivided attention.

 

A vast majority of seekers who are not endowed with full reverence

and faith, and lack purity of mind and subtlety of intellect, will

fail to grasp the true nature of the Atman even on hearing of it,

owing to doubt and lurking misconception. Hence, it is most difficult

for an unqualified Jiva to understand this truth. The word

`Ascaryavat' should be taken as an adverb qualifying the verbs

`perceives' `speaks' and `hears'. In this sense it can be understood

as qualifying the subject and object as well.

 

In conclusion, Lord Krishna's profound message to all of us is to

firs check whether we are qualified to seek the Brahmavidhya. How

can an unqualified seeker will ever know whether the Guru is

Shrotriya and/or Brahmanishta? Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi's suggestion

about " Self Enquiry or Atma Vichara " also focuses on the seeker

rather than the teacher. The teacher serves like the mirror to get

one's own reflection and the cleaner the mirror cleaner the vision.

Even if the mirror is very clean and if the seeker is not pure – the

reflection will likely be unclean!!

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

 

> The fact remains that as the student cannot know

> whether someone (including the teacher) is realized or

> not, it is better to assume, from the student part,

> that his teacher is a realized person. In fact, a

> student who feels that he has gained knowledge from

> his teacher and has no more doubts left, also feels

> that his teacher is realized (whether the teacher is

> realized or not is of no consequence here since

> student or any other person can never know anyway).

> Hence only by the grace of God that one is led to a

> right teacher.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Ram,

 

If I may comment:

 

Certainly Sankara described these well in Viveka Chudamani.

 

In my practice I have seen viveka - discrimination -(together with

inquiry) deepen practice. I have seen this naturally create vairagya -

detachment - as the discrimination reveals the inner source of

happiness. With this, sama, dama, etc. naturally grow. Mumukshutva -

desire for liberation - really drives this. For me, this desire for

liberation rises from my great good fortune to have a true jnani as a

teacher.

 

My teacher, Nome at SAT, in Santa Cruz, CA (www.satramana.org) says

that chief among these 'qualifications' is desire for liberation. He

says when this desire is strong the others will naturally follow.

 

As I read Yoga Vasishta, he seems to say the same - that first is the

desire for liberation. Then comes inquiry, etc.

 

Now from another point of view, what 'qualifications' do any of us need

to be, to exist? To be conscious? Since this is not needed, then all

that is needed is the desire to turn the mind within to see our own

true nature.

 

Thank you for the question and comment.

 

Not two,

Richard

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste:

>

> I want to change the subject matter of the thread to keep us focused

> on the topic instead of using 'names and forms.' Let us continue with

> the discussions which have already provided valuable isights on the

> core of advaita philosophy. I believe that the central point of the

> ongoing discussion is " Atmajnanam. " The key questions that often

> arise are: Who is best qualified to provide the Atmajnanam? What are

> the characteristics of the seeker and the teacher?

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Richard:

 

Thanks for bringing to the attention of the list on the importance of

the " desire for liberation " for Atmajnanam. This is the motivation

factor and the most important ingredient for Self-realization. Only

very in millions get this desire and a small fraction among them

ultimately attain the liberation. The scripture says many have to

undertake thousands of cycles of birth/death before they get the

desire for liberation.

 

The scriptures do in fact emphasize the importance of necessary

qualifications for the disciple (seeker) and the Guru. It should be

pointed out only a qualified student will be able to recognize

whether the Guru is qualified or not. The question whether the Guru

should be a Shrotriya (well versed in Vedantic Scriptures and logical

reasoning) or Brahmanishta (Self-realized) often arises. The answer

to this question has been discussed in greater length by the fellow

members and I believe that it is quite essential that the Guru is a

Shrotriya. One of the reasons for this conclusion is that the seekers

have not way to judge whether the Guru is a Brahmanishta. The

scriptures declare that only the Brahmanishta knows whether he/she is

a Bhramanishta. At the same time whether one is a Shrotriya is

always determined by other scholars and a seeker will be able to

determine the scholastic ability of the Guru through others. As a

matter of fact, Sankaracharyar has to debate in front of the scholars

of his time to establish his knowledge of Vedic Scriptures before

they accept the advaita Vedanta.

 

It should be also pointed out that we have witnessed in recent years

several self-proclaimed prophets who were responsible for mass

suicide of innocent and ignorant) victims (for example Jonestown

massacre). Uncultivated human mind will believe (blind faith) without

reasoning and can take a seeker to undesirable path. The rules of

thumb provided in the Vedanta will enable the qualified seeker to

identify the right Guru and the right path for liberation.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote:

> With this, sama, dama, etc. naturally grow. Mumukshutva -

> desire for liberation - really drives this. For me, this desire for

> liberation rises from my great good fortune to have a true jnani

> as a teacher.

>

> My teacher, Nome at SAT, in Santa Cruz, CA (www.satramana.org) says

> that chief among these 'qualifications' is desire for liberation.

He

> says when this desire is strong the others will naturally follow.

[Guest guest]

Nameste Sti Ram,

 

Here is something on the 'qualifications of the guru.' This is from a

small book, " Origin of Spiritual Instruction. " This book is a

new edition of the 1939 book, " A Catechism of Instruction " originally

published by Sri Ramanasramam under the auspices of Naranjanananda

Swami, dialogs with Sri Ramana Maharshi.

 

------------------------

Chapter One: Upadesa or Spiritual Instruction

 

Disciple: What are the distinctive marks of a Guru or Master, that

enable one to know and recognize him as such?

 

Ramana: The Guru is one who at all times abides in the profound

depths of the Self. He never sees any differences between himself and

others, and he is not in the lease obsessed by false notions of

distinction, that he himself is the enlightened one (jnani, i.e., has

realized Truth) or who is the liberated one (mukta), while other

around him are languishing in bondage or immersed in cimmerian

darkness of ignorance.

 

His firmness or self-possession can never be shaken under and

circumstances, and he is never perturbed.

 

-

 

From my own experience I would want a teacher who is a Shrotriya. AND

one who is a Brahmanishta. Sri Ramana was certainly one like this. I

feel my teacher, Nome, is one as well. The teacher is best who stands

always as That, and who expresses the nondual Truth from both direct

experience and the framework of Advaida Vedanta and the wisdom of Adi

Sankara, Yoga Vasishta, Ribhu, etc.

 

May we give thanks for the teachers with which we have been blessed.

 

Not two,

Richard

 

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Richard:

>

> Thanks for bringing to the attention of the list on the importance

of

> the " desire for liberation " for Atmajnanam. This is the motivation

> factor and the most important ingredient for Self-realization. Only

> very in millions get this desire and a small fraction among them

> ultimately attain the liberation. The scripture says many have to

> undertake thousands of cycles of birth/death before they get the

> desire for liberation.

>

> The scriptures do in fact emphasize the importance of necessary

> qualifications for the disciple (seeker) and the Guru. It should be

> pointed out only a qualified student will be able to recognize

> whether the Guru is qualified or not. The question whether the

Guru

> should be a Shrotriya (well versed in Vedantic Scriptures and

logical

> reasoning) or Brahmanishta (Self-realized) often arises. The answer

> to this question has been discussed in greater length by the fellow

> members and I believe that it is quite essential that the Guru is a

> Shrotriya. One of the reasons for this conclusion is that the

seekers

> have not way to judge whether the Guru is a Brahmanishta. The

> scriptures declare that only the Brahmanishta knows whether he/she

is

> a Bhramanishta. At the same time whether one is a Shrotriya is

> always determined by other scholars and a seeker will be able to

> determine the scholastic ability of the Guru through others. As a

> matter of fact, Sankaracharyar has to debate in front of the

scholars

> of his time to establish his knowledge of Vedic Scriptures before

> they accept the advaita Vedanta.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Richard:

 

Your reply just reassures the importance of the qualifications of the

seeker in order to find a Qualified Guru!

 

The Vedantic route for the seeker to self-unfold the truth requires the

student to have shraddha (faith and conviction with dedication and

determination) on the scriptures (essential knowledge to discriminate

between real/unreal, permanant/transient. etc.). The sages of the

Upanishads, Sri Sankara and Sri Ramana and others have emphasized the

importance of the discriminatory intelligence (Viveka) more than

anything else.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote:

>

> Nameste Sti Ram,

>

> Here is something on the 'qualifications of the guru.' This is from a

> small book, " Origin of Spiritual Instruction. " This book is a

> new edition of the 1939 book, " A Catechism of Instruction " originally

> published by Sri Ramanasramam under the auspices of Naranjanananda

> Swami, dialogs with Sri Ramana Maharshi.

[Guest guest]

Nameste Sri Ram,

 

More from 'The Origin of Instruction' that seems directly relevant to

your point about Viveka:

 

Chapter two – 'Origin of Spiritual Instructions' – (Talks with Ramana

Maharshi recorded by Naranjanananda Swami)

 

-------------------------------

 

D.: What is the correct method of practice for the disciple to adopt

and follow?

 

M.: In the first instance, in should be recognized that the Atman, or

the Self, is not something existing separate and distinct from the

seeker, which he has yet to obtain, as it were, from without.

 

Considering further that there is nothing loftier or more sublime

than the object of his quest, which is identical with himself, he

that would earnestly try to attain Liberation should initially

proceed to discriminate between what is permanent and abiding and

what is not.

 

By this discriminative insight, he should know beyond doubt and free

from misconception what he really is, in what his real Being

consists. Realizing thus his true and natural state, he should remain

changeless, firmly established therein. This is the correct method of

practice, or sadhana, and is called the Vichara Marga, which is pre-

eminently instrumental in gaining direct and immediate knowledge of

the Self.

 

-------------------------------

 

My teacher, Nome, says that there really is no difference between

discrimination and Self-inquiry. In practice I have seen that clear

discrimination brings the inquiry much deeper; " If I am not this,

then just who am I? "

 

Not two,

Richard

 

 

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Richard:

>

> Your reply just reassures the importance of the qualifications of

the

> seeker in order to find a Qualified Guru!

>

> The Vedantic route for the seeker to self-unfold the truth requires

the

> student to have shraddha (faith and conviction with dedication and

> determination) on the scriptures (essential knowledge to

discriminate

> between real/unreal, permanant/transient. etc.). The sages of the

> Upanishads, Sri Sankara and Sri Ramana and others have emphasized

the

> importance of the discriminatory intelligence (Viveka) more than

> anything else.

>

> With my warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> The sages of the

> Upanishads, Sri Sankara and Sri Ramana and others have emphasized the

> importance of the discriminatory intelligence (Viveka) more than

> anything else.

>

>

 

Namste:

 

In this context Samarth Ramdasswami goes further refines the concept of

viveka as " sat sat viveka buddhi " which is essential requisite for self

inquiry.

 

If this is not done then shraddha can turn out to be blind faith " andha

shraddha " . He devotes a chapter five of daasabodha that pertains to

evaluating guru and essential requirements for a disciple.

 

At present there are too many Moron Swamis visiting US and turning it

into a business and exploiting the ignorance of Indian under the

blanket of shraddhaa. Therefore, evaluation with sat sat viveka buddhi

can be a valuable tool.

 

Further discussion on this topic will go beyond the scope of this

objectives of this list but all of us have to be alert.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu