Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 PraNAms to all. On behalf of all the moderators, I request everyone to refrain from the discussion of this topic, since it has been extensively discussed many times in the past. Major objection from my side is, as I have observed in the past, it does not help in our saadhana other than lot of unnecessary noise. Classification as organically based on GuNa and Karma by Bhagavaan Krishna and also emphasized in the Vajrasuchi Upanishad, but customarily practiced on the basis of birth can neither be logically justified or endorsed. One can give any interpretation as one is comfortable with, the fact remains that - what is practiced differs from what is intended for the evolution of the mind. Let us go back to basic fundamental issue - How to recognize the self in me is the self in all - irrespective the person's nationality, birth, caste or religion. This is the fundamental human problem and essence of advaita and essence of advaitin list serve discussion objective - not the practices at Shankara’s time or even Krishna's or Rama's time. I strongly urge the chief moderator to curtail any further discussion on this topic which is not fruitful from any body's point. Those who are interested can down load the discussions from archieves. The list serve is open for all those who are qualified irrespective their Nationality, caste or creed as long as those who to advaita philosophy as enumerated by Adi Shankara. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Sadaji : You write : ( Classification as organically based on GuNa and Karma by Bhagavaan > Krishna and also emphasized in the Vajrasuchi Upanishad, but customarily practiced on the basis of birth can neither be logically justified or endorsed. One can give any interpretation as one is comfortable with, the fact remains that - what is practiced differs from what is intended for the evolution of the mind. ) How True! The Varnashrama Dharma that is *practiced* in the prsent century has resulted in the worst explotation of Man by Man' - it is no longer based on occupational division of labor - No Wonmder , we are witnessing such mass scale conversion of Hindus by vested interests such as Christiam nissionaries all over india more so in economically backward areas like Kerala , Orissa , W. Bengal etc. Gandhiji believed in Varnashrama dharma but the same Gandhiji also said " My varnashram refuses to bow the head before the greatest potentate on earth, but my varnashram compels me to bow down my head in all humility before knowledge, purity, before every person where I see God face to face. " and Gandhiji also said " The story of a shudra having been punished by Ramchandra for daring to learn the Vedas, I reject as an interpolation. " anyway .... sigh! sigh! THEN YOU GO ON TO WRITE EVEN MORE BEAUTIFULLY ( Let us go back to basic fundamental issue - How to recognize the self in me is the self in all - irrespective the person's nationality, birth, caste or religion. This is the fundamental human problem and essence of advaita and essence of advaitin list serve discussion objective - not the practices at Shankara's time or even Krishna's or Rama's time. ?) also, we must remember that the same Adi shankara who wrote the Brahma sutras also wrote texts like Maanishaa panchakam and Upadesha Sahasri! In the latter two texts , Our beloved Bhagvadapada has exponded the Advaita vedanta philosophy in all its pristine glory. Sadaji , you conclude ( The list serve is open for all those who are qualified irrespective their Nationality, caste or creed as long as those who to advaita philosophy as enumerated by Adi Shankara. ) Yes! Advaita, the non-dualistic philosophy expounded in detail by Shri Shankara, does not recognize differences between people based on caste, creed, religion, gender etc since we are all the manifestations of the same Brahman. Please read the following two verses from Manishaa Panchakam : jaagratsvapnasushhuptishhu sphuTataraa yaa saMvidujjR^imbhate yaa brahmaadipipiilikaantatanushhu protaa jagatsaakshiNii . saivaahaM na cha dR^ishyavastviti dR^iDhapraGYaapi yasyaasti che chchaaNDaalo.astu sa tu dvijo.astu gururityeshhaa maniishhaa mama .. If one is convinced firmly, that he is that very Soul which manifests itself in all the conditions of sleep, wakefulness and dream, in all the objects from the great Brahma (the creator) to the tiny ant and which is also the vibrant, but invisible, witnesser of all, then as per my clear conclusion, he is the great teacher/preceptor, be he a twice-born (i.e higher castes) or an outcaste. brahmaivaahamidaM jagachcha sakalaM chinmaatravistaaritaM sarvaM chaitadavidyayaa triguNayaa.asheshhaM mayaa kalpitam.h . itthaM yasya dR^iDhaa matiH sukhatare nitye pare nirmale chaaNDaalo.astu sa tu dvijo.astu gururityeshhaa maniishhaa mama .. 2.. I am quite convinced that he is the great Master, be he a Brahmin or an outcaste, who, dwelling on the pure and infinite Brahman thinks of himself as that very Brahman, of whose manifestation the whole Universe is,though apparently the Universe is assumed to consist of different things, due to ignorance and the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Tamas). To read the entire text , pl go to http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_z_misc_shankara/doc_z_misc_shankara. html one more note on 'adhikaratwam ' Anandaji has given an eloquent description of 'jatis and varna ' in his book 'ways to Truth' - please read the entire section . and he has beautifully explained how Sanyasis ( renunciates) are beyond caste etc - in this context, he has mentioned the name of Catambi Swami ( a nayar) and Narayana guru ( an irava)! If adi shankara can accept a Chandala as a teacher in his Manishaa panchakam, we lesser mortals have no business 'fussing' ... the only qualification for a seeker of Truth is purity of heart and devotion towards a knower of Truth! Satyameva Jayate! Truth alone triumphs! this is my last ( lating) word on this subject ! i bow down only to Knower of Truth, not men born in so called high caste. love and regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 very nice. Would some learned person kindly give meaning of ' " JATI' " in Sanskrit, the root of the word, and explanations as envisaged by Sanskrit language ...please??? dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati wrote: Sadaji : You write : ( Classification as organically based on GuNa and Karma by Bhagavaan > Krishna and also emphasized in the Vajrasuchi Upanishad, but customarily practiced on the basis of birth can neither be logically justified or endorsed. One can give any interpretation as one is comfortable with, the fact remains that - what is practiced differs from what is intended for the evolution of the mind. ) How True! The Varnashrama Dharma that is *practiced* in the prsent century has resulted in the worst explotation of Man by Man' - it is no longer based on occupational division of labor - No Wonmder , we are witnessing such mass scale conversion of Hindus by vested interests such as Christiam nissionaries all over india more so in economically backward areas like Kerala , Orissa , W. Bengal etc. Gandhiji believed in Varnashrama dharma but the same Gandhiji also said " My varnashram refuses to bow the head before the greatest potentate on earth, but my varnashram compels me to bow down my head in all humility before knowledge, purity, before every person where I see God face to face. " and Gandhiji also said " The story of a shudra having been punished by Ramchandra for daring to learn the Vedas, I reject as an interpolation. " anyway .... sigh! sigh! THEN YOU GO ON TO WRITE EVEN MORE BEAUTIFULLY ( Let us go back to basic fundamental issue - How to recognize the self in me is the self in all - irrespective the person's nationality, birth, caste or religion. This is the fundamental human problem and essence of advaita and essence of advaitin list serve discussion objective - not the practices at Shankara's time or even Krishna's or Rama's time. ?) also, we must remember that the same Adi shankara who wrote the Brahma sutras also wrote texts like Maanishaa panchakam and Upadesha Sahasri! In the latter two texts , Our beloved Bhagvadapada has exponded the Advaita vedanta philosophy in all its pristine glory. Sadaji , you conclude ( The list serve is open for all those who are qualified irrespective their Nationality, caste or creed as long as those who to advaita philosophy as enumerated by Adi Shankara. ) Yes! Advaita, the non-dualistic philosophy expounded in detail by Shri Shankara, does not recognize differences between people based on caste, creed, religion, gender etc since we are all the manifestations of the same Brahman. Please read the following two verses from Manishaa Panchakam : jaagratsvapnasushhuptishhu sphuTataraa yaa saMvidujjR^imbhate yaa brahmaadipipiilikaantatanushhu protaa jagatsaakshiNii . saivaahaM na cha dR^ishyavastviti dR^iDhapraGYaapi yasyaasti che chchaaNDaalo.astu sa tu dvijo.astu gururityeshhaa maniishhaa mama .. If one is convinced firmly, that he is that very Soul which manifests itself in all the conditions of sleep, wakefulness and dream, in all the objects from the great Brahma (the creator) to the tiny ant and which is also the vibrant, but invisible, witnesser of all, then as per my clear conclusion, he is the great teacher/preceptor, be he a twice-born (i.e higher castes) or an outcaste. brahmaivaahamidaM jagachcha sakalaM chinmaatravistaaritaM sarvaM chaitadavidyayaa triguNayaa.asheshhaM mayaa kalpitam.h . itthaM yasya dR^iDhaa matiH sukhatare nitye pare nirmale chaaNDaalo.astu sa tu dvijo.astu gururityeshhaa maniishhaa mama .. 2.. I am quite convinced that he is the great Master, be he a Brahmin or an outcaste, who, dwelling on the pure and infinite Brahman thinks of himself as that very Brahman, of whose manifestation the whole Universe is,though apparently the Universe is assumed to consist of different things, due to ignorance and the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Tamas). To read the entire text , pl go to http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_z_misc_shankara/doc_z_misc_shankara. html one more note on 'adhikaratwam ' Anandaji has given an eloquent description of 'jatis and varna ' in his book 'ways to Truth' - please read the entire section . and he has beautifully explained how Sanyasis ( renunciates) are beyond caste etc - in this context, he has mentioned the name of Catambi Swami ( a nayar) and Narayana guru ( an irava)! If adi shankara can accept a Chandala as a teacher in his Manishaa panchakam, we lesser mortals have no business 'fussing' ... the only qualification for a seeker of Truth is purity of heart and devotion towards a knower of Truth! Satyameva Jayate! Truth alone triumphs! this is my last ( lating) word on this subject ! i bow down only to Knower of Truth, not men born in so called high caste. love and regards Download prohibited? No problem! CHAT from any browser, without download. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Dear Ram Mohan-ji, Please delete the old message, possibly leaving just the relevant sentence or paragraph before responding - especially if that message is one which resulted in a yellow card! The message from Sri Sadananda asked that this subject not be discussed further. I suggest that you read the section on jAti and varna in Sri Ananda Wood's 'Ways to Truth' as suggested by Dhyanasaraswati-ji and then, if you have any further questions, communicate directly with Sri Ananda Wood. Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of ram mohan anantha pai 14 June 2007 14:35 advaitin Re: Re: Discussion on Varnaasrama dharma .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=3 6296/stime=1181832307/nc1=4507179/nc2=3848553/nc3=3848580> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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