Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 The following quote is by Shri Atmananda although many others have said the same: " When you awaken out of the deep sleep you then say that you were happy. How would it be possible to claim this if you had not been aware of that happiness that you experienced during deep sleep? It follows therefore that Consciousness and Peace were present in the deep sleep-and that this Consciousness, this Peace is your true nature. " I disagree. When I wake up, if my sleep was a poor one, my body is tired and I know I didn't sleep well. When I wake up and the body feels relaxed, peaceful, and I am happy, it is AFTER AWAKENING that I know this BY HOW THE BODY FEELS. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Dear Richard, In your message #36420 (July 6th), you say: " When I wake up, if my sleep was a poor one, my body is tired and I know I didn't sleep well. When I wake up and the body feels relaxed, peaceful, and I am happy, it is AFTER AWAKENING that I know this BY HOW THE BODY FEELS. " You are of course quite right that the body views sleep as good or bad, depending on how the body feels, at the time of its bodily awakening. But is the body's 'view' correct? Does the body truly 'feel'? Is the body properly 'awake', in what we call the 'waking state'? We do indeed habitually assume that the body has a 'waking state', in which it 'views' sights and 'feels' feelings and is generally 'awake' to an outside world. But this assumption, of bodily 'awakening', is thrown into question by a further consideration of the state that we experience in our dreaming minds. In this 'dream state', a dreamt-up body seems to 'view' sights, to 'feel' feelings and to have 'awakened' to an outside world. Here, it turns out that this dream-body's 'views' are not actually viewed by any body in an outside world. The views that appear in a dream have not in fact been viewed by any such external body, outside the dreaming mind. Instead, all dream-views have been more subtly thought and felt, within a dreaming process of conception in our minds. In this process of conception, there is no outside world made up of objects that are found to co-exist, each one of them located in their different parts of space. There are no co-existing parts of space that enable objects to make up a structured world. In fact, no structured space is actually found, in the process of conception. As our minds conceive a world, they don't themselves experience any structured space. Each mind's experience is just passing time. In any mind, there is a succession of mental states which never co-exist, but only replace each other. Each present state of mind appears on its own, in the absence of all previous and all future states. All previous states are no longer present and all future states are yet to come. It's to this passing process of conception that the dream state points, when it is examined carefully. But what then is our experience in deep sleep -- where all perceptions and conceptions have dissolved, so that there are no bodily or mental appearances? That deep sleep experience throws into question a further assumption which we take for granted habitually, in the conceiving process of our minds. We take it for granted that knowing is a personal activity, which is carried out by the perceptions, thoughts and feelings of our bodies and our minds. This assumption is contradicted by our experience of deep sleep. It is an experience that we somehow know; and yet we find no perceptions, thoughts or feelings there, neither bodily nor mental. Accordingly, when deep sleep is considered carefully, it can lead us to ask questions about a knowing that is independent of our differing bodies and senses and our changing minds. What could such a knowing be, quite independent of all the perceived and thought and felt appearances that are produced by body, sense and mind? Such a knowing must be independent of all differing objects and events, in a world of outside space. And it must be independent of all changing states and moments, during a conceiving process that continues through time, in each of our minds. Such an independent knowing is essential -- in order to know that change has taken place through time, and to distinguish different things in space. Where differing and changing appearances are found dissolved, as in deep sleep, that independent knowing must be present by itself, in all its unmixed purity. Deep sleep can thus provide us with telling clues to that independent knowing, on which our minds and senses must depend. One clue is the unobtrusive happiness and the refreshing peace associated with deep sleep. But, to follow the clue, the depth of sleep considered must go far beneath all relative feelings of good or bad or well or ill. Such relative feelings don't apply to deep sleep itself, but only to our bodily and mental personalities. Habitual assumptions must somehow be questioned so far that nothing but plain truth remains, untainted by any compromising relativity. How can that be possibly achieved? One has to find out for oneself, with a helping hand that must come finally from far beyond all personality. Ananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Dear Sri Anandaji, Thank you for replying to my question concerning a statement of Sri Atmananda's. I have the greatest respect for him and his teaching and in no way meant to denegrate him. There was just that one statement of his which I didn't understand, and am extremely happy you responded with such a good teaching message. Best wishes, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 advaitin , " Richard " <richarkar wrote: > > The following quote is by Shri Atmananda although many others have > said the same: > > " When you awaken out of the deep sleep you then say that you were > happy. How would it be possible to claim this if you had not been > aware of that happiness that you experienced during deep sleep? It > follows therefore that Consciousness and Peace were present in the > deep sleep-and that this Consciousness, this Peace is your true > nature. " > > I disagree. When I wake up, if my sleep was a poor one, my body is > tired and I know I didn't sleep well. When I wake up and the body > feels relaxed, peaceful, and I am happy, it is AFTER AWAKENING that > I know this BY HOW THE BODY FEELS. > > Richard > Namaste, Awake state cam be tiring. Dream state can be tiring depending on the type of dream activity. Deep sleep is just the mind entertaining the one thought of nothingness. It is short of realisation for it is a thought of ignorance. However as the mind is in pralaya there is reflected peace from the Self. The Self is our real Self within illusion. However it is a Saguna description which has to be surmounted in NirGuna...Hu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 advaitin , " hupa_ramdas " <hupa_ram> wrote: advaitin , " Richard " <richarkar@> wrote: > > The following quote is by Shri Atmananda although many others have > said the same: > > " When you awaken out of the deep sleep you then say that you were > happy. How would it be possible to claim this if you had not been > aware of that happiness that you experienced during deep sleep? It > follows therefore that Consciousness and Peace were present in the > deep sleep-and that this Consciousness, this Peace is your true > nature. " > > I disagree. When I wake up, if my sleep was a poor one, my body is > tired and I know I didn't sleep well. When I wake up and the body > feels relaxed, peaceful, and I am happy, it is AFTER AWAKENING that > I know this BY HOW THE BODY FEELS. > > Richard > Namaste, Awake state cam be tiring. Dream state can be tiring depending on the type of dream activity. Deep sleep is just the mind entertaining the one thought of nothingness. It is short of realisation for it is a thought of ignorance. However as the mind is in pralaya there is reflected peace from the Self. The Self is our real Self within illusion. However it is a Saguna description which has to be surmounted in NirGuna...Hu. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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