Is vairAgya/renunciation a result of glumness??

July 20, 2007

Bhaskar - PraNAms - here is my understanding:

True vairaagya comes with viveka - some incidences can

trigger the intellect to think deeply. Otherwise it

is called smashaana vairaagya - dispassion until

funeral is over. The statement of the Upanishad is

'pariiksha lokaan karma chitaan ..... tat

vijnaanaartham sa gurum eva abhigachchet...'

‘when one realizes after examining his whole life of

experiences that he cannot achieve the ever lasting

happiness through result of any action or karma, he is

advised to approach a teacher for proper knowledge’.

Hence emphasis is vairaagya that is well founded by

thought process of discrimination. It is recognition

that normal ‘rat-race’ will not give the happiness

that I am longing for - it can come with heavy

suffering or even light suffering- what is needed is

discriminative intellect. Buddha just saw once the

suffering of the individuals and Ramana witnessed the

death of a relative. Their minds took off, while we

see these everyday and nothing happens. There is

samskaara that is required for the mind to withdraw.

In Mahabhaarat, Dhramaraja says to yaksha in response

to the question 'what is the wonder of all wonders' -

the response was 'we see people being born everyday

and people dying everyday; yet everybody operates as

though they are going to live here permanently and

that is the greatest wonder'. Dispassion can be

triggered by sorrowful events in life, not the other

way; sorrowful events need not be precursors for

vairaagya.

I heard a story – One seeker - he was marrying a girl

and priest said 'saavadhaan' as a part of ritual

before taking the seven steps. Suddenly he got a big

shock- someone is warning him - saavadhaan' - pay

attention to what you are doing - you are getting into

bondage for life! - at least that was what he realized

and took up sanyaasa immediately. What is required is

the full attention of the mind in recognizing what is

ephemeral and what is eternal and how much importance

should one give to the former. Bahuunaam janaanaamate

‘ for many it takes many lives for the mind to develop

that discriminative power. For those who are getting

exposed to advaita, that exposure is possible only

when you have that prepared mind. The more one dwells

on adviata, the more the mind get dispassion about the

ephemeral things.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

the topic was

> about vairAgya. He said that vairAgya or dispassion

> is always a result of

> some grief in one's life. He took the examples of

> buddha, dhruva, ramaNa

> maharshi & argued,

July 20, 2007

When I was about ten or eleven years old I wanted a toy pirate musket

very badly for Christmas one year. I got it and went outside pretending

to shoot it. And it struck me at that moment that soon this toy would

be like all other toys, the newness would wear off and soon I would

care little for it. I never forgot that experience. It was

disappointing, but I sensed that everything would be like that even

though I continued to want things. I just knew they weren't going to be

what I expected. Soon after that I started reading psychology, religion

and philosophy books. Best wishes, Steve

July 20, 2007

Hi Steve and Bhaskar,

Regarding your discussion of the 'comfort zone', I was listening to Swami

Paramarthananda discoursing on mANDUkya kArikA-s earlier to day and he made

the following fantastic quote: " Vedanta says that if you want to make lists

of all those things in the world that bring joy and all those things that

bring sorrow, you only need to make one list! " Think about it!

Dennis

July 20, 2007

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

> Bhaskar - PraNAms - here is my understanding:

>

> vairaagya.

>

> I heard a story – One seeker - he was marrying a girl

> and priest said 'saavadhaan' as a part of ritual

> before taking the seven steps. Suddenly he got a big

> shock- someone is warning him - saavadhaan' - pay

> attention to what you are doing - you are getting into

> bondage for life! - at least that was what he realized

> and took up sanyaasa immediately.

Namaste All,

Sannyas is of the mind not the body. Many householders have achieved

mosksha without going to the cave. For you take your thoughts and

desires to the cave.

As Ramana once remarked on being told about married couples living

together on the ashram, or near, what does it matter if the mind

still has the desire. Sannyas in the case of this married person was

a rejection of his need to surrender and a creation of karma...Hu

July 20, 2007

Namaste all.

VairAgya is dispassion, absence of passion and attachment (rAga).

Though this sometimes is a result of disappointment and depression --

which is the type that we hear about in most stories of mythology as

well as in our worldly experience, the Vedantic dispassion has to

come out of a correct assessment of what place each issue in life is

to be placed in.

As a child toys and sweets are most attractive and important. The

loss of even a little of these upsets the child totally

As a youth, the attraction and importance shifts from toys and sweets

to many other 'more substantial' things! -- we know what! Now at this

stage of life we also realise that the attraction we had for toys and

sweets and the importance we attached to them are 'childish' and we

are not any more bothered about them. In other words we have learnt,

at this stage, what place in life toys and sweets have and we learn

to put them in their place.

Vedanta says, each issue in life has a place. Put it in its place.No

more, no less. Spiritual upliftment and progress has a supreme place.

Give it its due. If we learn to do this, that is vairAgya.

PrfaNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

July 20, 2007

advaitin , " V. Krishnamurthy " <profvk wrote:

>

> Namaste all.

>

> VairAgya is dispassion, absence of passion and attachment (rAga).

Namaste,

Sri Shankara defines vairaagya in Gita 6:35 -

" ...'Indifference' means freedom from desire for any pleasures seen or

unseen, attained through a constant perception of evil in them.... "

[ " dRRiShta-adRRiShTa-bhogeShu doSha-darshana-abhyAsAt vaitRRiShNyam " ].

Glumness would hardly qualify as a requisite for the spiritual quest!

Regards,

Sunder

July 20, 2007

Dennis--

I get it. No need to think about it.

Best,

Steve

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July 21, 2007

Hi Bhaskar,

Your friend has a good point about unhappiness being the cause of

withdrawal from the world. However I'm sure one can find cases where

karma or intellectual or spiritual curiosity led someone along the

spiritual path, including vairagya.

One such person was Nisargadatta Maharaj. He was a happy family man,

owning several shops. Someone convinced him to see the person who

would become his guru. Afterwards he wandered about and eventually

came home where he meditated ardently.

Hui Neng happened to hear someone in the street recite the Diamond

Sutra. He understood it and went to a monastery for further

instruction.

As your friend pointed out, the Buddha's raison d'etre concerned

suffering. " Ananda, I say once again, I have come for suffering and

it's ending. "

July 21, 2007

Nameste all.

My teacher says that VairAgya, dispassion, really comes when one

knows that the source of happiness is within. As long as the seeker

looks for happiness in objects (whether gross or subtle), the seeker

will hold to the reality of those objects. And spiritual progress

will be limited.

Not two,

Richard

advaitin , " V. Krishnamurthy " <profvk

wrote:

>

> Namaste all.

>

> VairAgya is dispassion, absence of passion and attachment (rAga).

> Though this sometimes is a result of disappointment and depression -

-

> which is the type that we hear about in most stories of mythology

as

> well as in our worldly experience, the Vedantic dispassion has to

> come out of a correct assessment of what place each issue in life

is

> to be placed in.

>

> As a child toys and sweets are most attractive and important. The

> loss of even a little of these upsets the child totally

>

> As a youth, the attraction and importance shifts from toys and

sweets

> to many other 'more substantial' things! -- we know what! Now at

this

> stage of life we also realise that the attraction we had for toys

and

> sweets and the importance we attached to them are 'childish' and we

> are not any more bothered about them. In other words we have

learnt,

> at this stage, what place in life toys and sweets have and we learn

> to put them in their place.

>

> Vedanta says, each issue in life has a place. Put it in its

place.No

> more, no less. Spiritual upliftment and progress has a supreme

place.

> Give it its due. If we learn to do this, that is vairAgya.

>

> PrfaNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

>

July 22, 2007

V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

Namaste all.

VairAgya is dispassion, absence of passion and attachment (rAga). Though

this sometimes is a result of disappointment and depression -- which is

the type that we hear about in most stories of mythology as well as in

our worldly experience, the Vedantic dispassion has to come out of a

correct assessment of what place each issue in life is to be placed in.

As a child toys and sweets are most attractive and important. The loss

of even a little of these upsets the child totally

Namaste,

I have another viewpoint here. When one is young, one is full of

dreams/ambitions. However, as one grows older, it becomes clear to the

vast majority that these dreams/ambitions are not going to be realized

at least in this life. Since the human mind has to be always seeking

something, then perhaps it starts thinking about the truth behind the

bewildering reality of life. It may actively pursue philosophy then.

Most of the material achievements are tangible and objective, but

realization is purely subjective. Success/failure is not so tangible,

thus relieving the pressure of achievement. The moot point here though

is, is this true /vairagya /or the classic case of " sour grapes " ? Worse

still, one may become neither worldly nor realized. I would be

interested in knowing what other advaitins think of this.

mj

July 22, 2007

Hello MJ!

Most of the material achievements are tangible and objective, but

realization is purely subjective. Success/failure is not so tangible,

thus relieving the pressure of achievement. The moot point here though

is, is this true /vairagya /or the classic case of " sour grapes " ? Worse

still, one may become neither worldly nor realized. I would be

interested in knowing what other advaitins think of this.

I see it on two levels, " inward " and " outward " .

Say I want to become a writer of novels or an artist, or anything for

that matter that is measurable in the " inner " world as well as

the " outer " world.

So I study writing in anyway I can. I take a course maybe, I read books

on it, I study other novels for style, dialouge etc. And I write a

novel. So " I'm a writer " . I wouldn't say it like that personally. I'd

say " I write novels " . Anyway, basically since I've written a novel or

done a painting or sculpture or what ever, I've done what I set out to

do. That's one level and I may have gained much at the relative level.

I may have better appreciation of novels, painting, sculpture etc. So,

I have succeeded!

Now the other level is where I want recognition, money, power,

appreciation from other people, " ego-boosting " , more " self-esteem " etc.

I could want anything from the act! I want something from outside to

benefit me from what I did. Even though I might have gained much at the

relative level as far as knowledge, experience with the field etc.,

enjoyment of the act, I still want that outside recognition.

So, peronally, I can " do " or learn or experience many things and maybe

benefit myself and others in some ways. But I better not try to extend

that out and look for something in the outside world to come in and

benefit me from those things...Or, if I do want something from the

outside world, I'd better understand that I've got no control over

whether I get it or not... so for me these are the two levels...as

always, one Texan's opinions on this! Best wishes, Steve

July 23, 2007

praNAms

Hare Krishna

Thanks a lot for all the replies from the revered prabhuji-s. I am ever

indebted to these thoughtful insights. But, my question was with more

specific intention & towards practical implimentation of virtue of vairAgya

in our day to day life. Yes, theoretically we know the definition of

vairAgya & even we can quote scriptural references for the same & we can

talk/write authoritatively about it . But when it comes to our *real life

situations* what would be the right attitude rather mental state of ours

being a real vairAgi. That is what exactly I wanted to know. Let me

explain it by taking one practical example. One morning, say, I've assured

my wife & kids to take them to a movie in the evening after coming back

from office. But, while on the way to office, I heard a sad news that my

closest childhood friend died in a road accident & his body is lying in

mortuary at hospital...Immediately I rushed to the hospital, deeply mourned

the death of my fast friend, have attended his cremation, consoled his wife

& kids & my other friends etc. etc. & will come back to home. Now, tell

me, should I carry that sad feeling to my house & by narrating the whole

episode to my wife (who does not even know the name of my departed friend)

& making her also to grieve along with me & ruin the whole happy

atmosphere at home?? or should I leave all my sorrows as soon as I comeout

from the crematorium & enjoy the evening movie with my wife & kids with ice

creams & pop corns ?? What would be the attitude/mental state of a real

vairAgi in these *real life* situations?? Whether he will just *act * (or

pretend) according to the demands of life *situation/circumstance*?? like,

looking sad & weepy guy at the cremation of his friend & looking joyful,

wonderfully happy husband when he is with family !! Or, should he wear

an apathetic, granite face with *no* feeling at all in both these

situations?? which is the right & appropriate mental state here for a real

vairAgi ?? whether he should be like ' duHkEshu anudvigna manaH, sukEshu

vigata spruhaH', 'na prahrushyEt priyaM prApya nOdvijEt prApyachApriyaM',

'sukha dhukhE samEkrutvA' etc. etc. or dhHkEshu *duHkhi*, suKhEshu *suKhi*

without wearing any permanent tag or dis-associating himself with neither

of these vikAra-s!!! Kindly tell me, which is the *choice* of a real

vairAgi??

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

July 23, 2007

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> Thanks a lot for all the replies from the revered prabhuji-s. I am

ever

> indebted to these ..... Now, tell

> me, should I carry that sad feeling to my house & by narrating the

whole

> episode to my wife (who does not even know the name of my departed

friend)

> & making her also to grieve along with me & ruin the whole happy

> atmosphere at home?? or should I leave all my sorrows as soon as I

comeout

> from the crematorium & enjoy the evening movie with my wife & kids

with ice

> creams & pop corns ?? What would be the attitude/mental state of

a real

> vairAgi in these *real life* situations?? Whether he will just

*act * (or

> pretend) according to the demands of life

*situation/circumstance*?? like,

> looking sad & weepy guy at the cremation of his friend & looking

joyful,

> wonderfully happy husband when he is with family !! Or, should

he wear

> an apathetic, granite face with *no* feeling at all in both these

> situations?? which is the right & appropriate mental state here for

a real

> vairAgi ?? whether he should be like ' duHkEshu anudvigna manaH,

sukEshu

> vigata spruhaH', 'na prahrushyEt priyaM prApya nOdvijEt

prApyachApriyaM',

> 'sukha dhukhE samEkrutvA' etc. etc. or dhHkEshu *duHkhi*, suKhEshu

*suKhi*

> without wearing any permanent tag or dis-associating himself with

neither

> of these vikAra-s!!! Kindly tell me, which is the *choice* of a

real

> vairAgi??

Namaste.

The answer has to be given from the depiction of the 'Adarsha

purushha' of the Ramayana. When Rama comes out of Kaikeyi's quarters

after having been just told by his father and mother that he should

go to live in the forest for fourteen years, he walks through the

hall where all the priests are geting ready the ritualistic

formalities for the coronation, his face did not show the least

perturbation. Later acc. to Kamba Ramayanam Sita is going to describe

his face as 'the picture of a lotus just bloomed'.( *anRalarwtha

centAmarai yai yottatu*)

It is not as if there was no grief within him. Having to break the

bad news to his mother, he went dejected to her. Valmiki says:

dhArayan manasA dukhaM indriyANi nigRhya ca /

prvivESha AtmavAn vEshma mAtur-apriya-shamsivAn// II-19-35.

'Controlling his unhappiness within his own heart'. These are the key

words. This shows you there was unhappiness but he conquered it. The

depressing nature of the circumstances did have effect on his mind

but he was 'AtmavAn', the possessor of his Self.

In fact even though he censures anybody who speaks ill of Kaikeyi or

Bharata, later when he is alone with Lakshmana there are occasions

when he pours out his feelings to Lakshmana. At such times we feel he

is speaking to himself because Lakshmana and he are inseparable.

Thus the great 'vairAgi' as he was, he still had to control his

grief, which certainly was there. So 'dhArayan manasA dukham' are the

key words and that is the answer to your question, Bhaskar Prabhuji!

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

July 23, 2007

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> But when it comes to our *real life situations* what would be the

> right attitude rather mental state of ours being a real vairAgi.

......

> Whether he will just *act * (or pretend) according to the demands of

> life *situation/circumstance*?? like, looking sad & weepy guy at

> the cremation of his friend & looking joyful, wonderfully happy

> husband when he is with family !! Or, should he wear an

> apathetic, granite face with *no* feeling at all in both these

> situations?? which is the right & appropriate mental state here

> for a real vairAgi ?? ...Kindly tell me, which is the *choice* of

> a real vairAgi??

Pranams.

This is one of the very practical and pertinent questions I ever

read here.

Life seems to be not compartmental, but seems to flow unbrokenly.

Just a generation ago, there used be large joint families,

wherein the head of the house had to deal with so many issues

every day that could be joyful, neutral or even sorrowful.

Some grandchild is graduating, while another grand kid broke his

arm while playing, and some family member is getting married while

there are preparations underway for some one else's death

anniversary- all the time and every day!

I used to wonder, how would that grand old head of the household

used to deal with it realistically! I think Advaita is not a

mere philosophy, but a pressing practical necessity!

I believe the head of such a house hold will be almost forced

to deal with every occasion with full presence. Really grieving the

losses, and really enjoying the joys. The reason I saw one would

be almost foreced is simple! What if he merely pretends? The moment

some one discovers that he is not really and heartfully sharing

either their pain or joy, imagine the new train of agony that this

is going to unfold?! " Oh! This terrible old man is hyprocrite and

heartless-when I am suffering he pretends to comfort me. And when I

am successful merely fakes his joy. Wretched old guy-when will he

leave us for good! " will be what goes on the sound waves of the

house loudly or silently! :-)

Advaita seems to come to rescue here with practical help. The

moment one sees one's own self in others, then there is no need

to " pretend " or put up any veil. One's thoughts/actions would

instinctively take a different perspective and no matter what they

are, will always be soaked in deep (and not mere superficial) love

and care. That would be a practical rendering of Gita's verse to see

one in all and all in one.

We know this is truly possible for only one who is in the world, but

yet not of the world.

I never forget the simile Swami Satchidandaji mentioned regarding

this. Boat should be in the water but water should not be in the

boat! What use is of a boat that is not in the water? So too, what

use is of a boat if water gets into it ? Only one who is in the

world, but yet in whom there is no worldliness can serve to ferry

others in the ocean-of-samsara. Even if one can't become like a

boat, it serves us just as well if we can at least find one such and

soul take his company!

Hari OM!

-Srinivas

July 24, 2007

otnac6 wrote:

>

> Hello MJ!

>

> I see it on two levels, " inward " and " outward " .

> Say I want to become a writer of novels or an artist, or anything for

> that matter that is measurable in the " inner " world as well as

> the " outer " world.

>

Dear Steve,

You have put the dilemma in much better way that I could! Expanding your

analogy of a writer, what if you set out to be a writer but in spite of

your best efforts you do not achieve what you set out to do, both at the

" inward " and the " outward " level. You have two options available to you.

One, realize that not achieving the goal of becoming a writer is not

really critical and apply the same logic to other areas where you do not

achieve your goals. Or in a fit of frustration declare that being a

writer is not what you really wanted. What I referred to as sour grapes

was the second scenario. The first one is much more positive and hence a

stronger desire, the second one is what might be called bluffing

yourself, which in my mind is inherently dangerous. The first one is

true vairagya, and the second one is pseudo vairagya with potentially

disastrous implications. I hope I am making my stand clearer.

Perhaps in such a case a living guru or if one is lucky Divine grace

will help one in taking the decision with the right spirit.

mj

July 24, 2007

Hi MJ,

You have two options available to you.

One, realize that not achieving the goal of becoming a writer is not

really critical and apply the same logic to other areas where you do

not

achieve your goals. Or in a fit of frustration declare that being a

writer is not what you really wanted. What I referred to as sour grapes

was the second scenario.

I understand. Applying the sour grapes across the board would be an

immature way to handle it, a lack of self knowledge and honesty. I

don't know what one would do if one applied the sour grapes thinking

across the board! Grow up, I guess! Gain more maturity and see one's

relative strengths and weaknesses. I love the IDEA of mathtematics! I'd

love to be able to understand quantum mechanics, Boolian algebra,

Calculus etc...I have little natural talent for math! BUT--I've slowly,

steadily worked my way into it a little bit! I'll never be a math whiz

but that doesn't mean that I can't get a little way into it, which I've

done. And there's some satisfaction at some level with that. It's on a

continuum, I think, not black and white. Also, I appreciate the fact

that there are math geniuses in the world. I applaud their ability and

I don't feel jealous or envious. Just glad that there are people like

that. I can do a little math and I can appreciate those with greater

ability. Same with other things I've done. My areas of ability and

talent do not mean that I can't get into other areas somewhat, but not

at a professional, " money-making " , " esteem boosting " level. So I

renounce aspects of mathematical ability as far as it enhancing " me "

outwardly, but it brings some satisfaction within. Best wishes, Steve.

July 24, 2007

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>>

> Thanks a lot for all the replies from the revered prabhuji-s. I am

ever

> indebted to these thoughtful insights. But, my question was with more

> specific intention & towards practical implimentation of virtue of

vairAgya

> in our day to day life. Yes, theoretically we know the definition of

> vairAgya & even we can quote scriptural references for the same & we

can

> talk/write authoritatively about it . But when it comes to our *real

life

> situations* what would be the right attitude rather mental state of

ours

> being a real vairAgi. That is what exactly I wanted to know.

Namaste Bhaskarji,

You have already answered the question with the quotations!

Your question is in no way different than what Arjuna asks in Gita 2:54,

" sthitapraj~nasya kaa bhaaShaa?..... " (What is the definition of a man

of steady wisdom?....) The answer is given in the following verses 2:55-

72.

Krishna himself is such a one, and his face is described as

(Gita 2:10) 'prahasanniva' - 'as if smiling' - Why even imagine

a 'granite-like face?

Without 'vimarsha' on Krishn'a answers throughout Gita 18:63

(vimRRishyaitadasheSheNa - reflecting on this fully), no other answers

would be adequate.

Regards,

Sunder

July 24, 2007

advaitin , " Sunder Hattangadi " <sunderh

wrote:

>

> advaitin , bhaskar.yr@ wrote:

> >>

> > Thanks a lot for all the replies from the revered prabhuji-s. I am

> ever

> > indebted to these thoughtful insights. But, my question was with

more

> > specific intention & towards practical implimentation of virtue of

> vairAgya

> > in our day to day life.

>

Namaste,

An additional and indispensable reference is Kanchi Mahaswamiga's

discourses on Advaita Sadhana , ch. on Vairagya pp 38-51 (posted by

Prof. V. Krishnamurty):

http://tinyurl.com/yrrg3g

Regards,

Sunder

July 25, 2007

Namaste dear Bhaskar Prabhuji:

You have raised an interesting thought-provoking question to get a

Vedantic answer. I would first modify your question - How to cope-up

with events in our life? Life is full of events and we have the

option either to willingly accept or to exercise our resistance to

accept. The vairAgis are those who develop the attitude to accept the

events that are beyond their control. The `real vaiAgis' know that

all events in our life are beyond our control! Consequently they have

no problem in accepting the life events. My understanding of Vedanta

is that there is nothing wrong for us to express our emotions at the

time of either tragic or joyful events. The vairAgis learn to control

their emotions and the rest of us are controlled by our emotions.

The entire Bhagavad Gita dialog between Bhagavan Sri Krishna and

Arjuna provides the details on how to keep the `mind' stable.

Specifically verses 55 to 72 provide the consequences of a mind

disturbance initiated by uncontrolled emotions! Gita starts using a

dramatic beginning with Arjun's reactions when he allowed his

emotions to take control over his intelligence.

Since you are a Veteran Vedantin and you have been participating in

the list discussions (and also reading Bhagavad Gita and other

Vedantic scriptures) honestly, I do not need to tell you how to cope

up with the event that you have narrated here. All events that happen

in our life are transients including the expression of one's

emotions! I am quite confident that you will not have any difficulty

in understanding `this fact of life' and with this understanding; we

should move on to face the next situation. Given the fact that you

were very disturbed by the sad event of the death of your dear

friend, you should try your level best to reduce her sorrow as much

as possible while disclosing the unpleasant news. Here again,

Vedanta provides some basic rules for disclosing the news:

Sathyam Bruyath (speak the Truth)

Priyam Bruyath (speak sweetly and courteously)

Na Bruyath Sathyamapriyam (never utter the truth unpleasantly)

The first rule declares the moral value, the second states the social

value and last rule expresses the spiritual value.

The vairAgi understands that eternal happiness does not depend on

events. Atman is every happy. Body, mind and Intellect do get

affected by life events. The level of disturbance by the

body/mind/intellect varies from Jiva to Jiva and it depends on one's

background and spiritual maturity. The real vairAgi identifies

himself/herself with the Atman and consequently will not be affected

by transient events of life. Bhagavad Gita labels a vairAgi as the

person possesses the Satvik Guna. The question arises – Who is a

Satvik? To get the answer to this question, we can get help from

both Ramayana and Mahabharat. Rama the hero of Ramayana is Satvik

and Yudhistra the eldest of the Pandavas in Mahabharata are

considered good examples. How did Rama deal with life events? Rama

had the attitude to take life events as events without any

attribute. He became the symbol for TRUTH (Sathyam) and every word

that he uttered was considered to be the Truth. Gandhiji adopted Rama

as his `Role Model' and determined (real vairAgi) to speak the Truth

and take the words of Krishna (as spoken by Him in Bhagavad Gita) to

cope up with the events of his life. Gandhiji did what Rama did and

Krishna said!

In conclusion, I am willing to admit that it is impossible for me or

anyone to provide you with an answer that will fully satisfy you.

Your question is a life event and my explanation is another life

event and life goes on for ever. Let me conclude with the following

Upanishadic message for contemplation:

Life is a bridge, enjoy while crossing and don't build any castle on

it!

With my warmest regards,

Harih Om!

Ram Chandran

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> Let me

> explain it by taking one practical example. One morning, say, I've

assured

> my wife & kids to take them to a movie in the evening after coming

back

> from office. But, while on the way to office, I heard a sad news

that my

> closest childhood friend died in a road accident & his body is

lying in

> mortuary at hospital...Immediately I rushed to the hospital, deeply

mourned

> the death of my fast friend, have attended his cremation, consoled

his wife

> & kids & my other friends etc. etc. & will come back to home. Now,

tell

> me, should I carry that sad feeling to my house & by narrating the

whole

> episode to my wife (who does not even know the name of my departed

friend)

> & making her also to grieve along with me & ruin the whole happy

> atmosphere at home??

July 25, 2007

Hello!

How to cope-up

with events in our life? Life is full of events and we

have the

option either to willingly accept or to exercise our

resistance to

accept.

I can want, I can have desires, I can wish for the

objects of desire, I can wish for and try to give

others happiness, I can want material goods, I can try

to change " bad " " harmful " situations, in my life and

help others do that, if they ask. I can have enjoyment

and pleasure. I can also have the opposite,

displeasure, difficulites, problems, shortcomings,

without bitching and moaning and complaining too much

about them. I can have all the above attitudes. But

I'd better not depend on any of it for some sort of

ultimate happiness. I'd better not become possessed or

obsessed or let any of the above dominate my being.

I'd better not be willing to die, literally or

figuratively for any of the above. I'd better not be

willing to trade inward peace for any of the above.

If you read the playwrite, William Shakespeare

carefully, you'll see that almost every one of his

plays depicted characters who were obsessed with

something, someone, some situation. I was amazed when

I saw that. Obsession, addiction, possession is

universal and it seems to me that just about all

religions, great literature, the classics, Greek and

Roman, many of the great modern novels are about this

very thing. We're warned against those qualities

almost daily even in tv dramas and movies! It's so

obvious that it's hidden or we've seen it so often

that we no longer see it. So anything that helps me

walk that razor's edge between the opposites of

desires and their fulfillment and exteme renunciation,

the middle road--that's helpful! Above the Oracle of

Delfi were two sentences. One was " Know thyself " , the

other, beneath it is less known " Nothing too much " . In

this world, how can I be totally without desire or

wants? On the other hand, to be totally desireless

would preclude wanting attainment or Self-Realization.

Moderation must be my guideline, not totally

renouncing, not totally desiring.

Best wishes, Steve.

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July 25, 2007

Dear Bhaskar:

Although new to this Forum, and with limited experience in the theory

and philosophy side of Advaita Vedanta, your question resonated within

me and the impulse appeared to write my own experience that may or may

not help to bring us all to some understanding on this topic. Please

accept it as a friend talking to a friend.

As stated in the post, the " what to do " question seems to be reversing

the order of things, trying to define behavior taking an external event

or attitude as the motor, instead of leaving Reality (meaning Us) follow

its course and witnessing what happens. Are we really sure that we can

control our mental state? or that we can become dispassionate at will?

Wouldn't be simpler just to watch Reality unfold and witness? I do not

mean, of course, passive acceptance of events. The happy atmosphere of a

family afternoon, is as illusory as a " sad " one, and eventually, the

" sad " one may prove to be far more deep and full of insights than the

other one. According to my experience, at the level of the illusory Ego,

we do not know, and we do not control anything either. So, under this

thread of thought, why bother to put a happy face, or a sad one or a

compassionate, stone-like, etc? Wouldn't be simpler to dive and rest in

that place where all those processes begin, seeing what face " appears " ?

Maybe the " real " vairAgi never lost a friend in the first place, because

he/she never " had " one, in fact, he/she was, will and will BE the

friend... I see dispassion more like embracing EVERYTHING (including

pain, discomfort, etc.) than getting rid of some-thing, diving deeper

than trying to get out of the water of Life to save a face that we never

had in first place.

With all my wishes of friendship,

Mauna

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

Now, tell

> me, should I carry that sad feeling to my house & by narrating the

whole

> episode to my wife (who does not even know the name of my departed

friend)

> & making her also to grieve along with me & ruin the whole happy

> atmosphere at home?? or should I leave all my sorrows as soon as I

comeout

> from the crematorium & enjoy the evening movie with my wife & kids

with ice

> creams & pop corns ?? What would be the attitude/mental state of a

real

> vairAgi in these *real life* situations?? Whether he will just *act *

(or

> pretend) according to the demands of life *situation/circumstance*??

like,

> looking sad & weepy guy at the cremation of his friend & looking

joyful,

> wonderfully happy husband when he is with family !! Or, should he

wear

> an apathetic, granite face with *no* feeling at all in both these

> situations?? which is the right & appropriate mental state here for a

real

> vairAgi ?? whether he should be like ' duHkEshu anudvigna manaH,

sukEshu

> vigata spruhaH', 'na prahrushyEt priyaM prApya nOdvijEt

prApyachApriyaM',

> 'sukha dhukhE samEkrutvA' etc. etc. or dhHkEshu *duHkhi*, suKhEshu

*suKhi*

> without wearing any permanent tag or dis-associating himself with

neither

> of these vikAra-s!!! Kindly tell me, which is the *choice* of a real

> vairAgi??

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

July 26, 2007

Since you are a Veteran Vedantin and you have been participating in

the list discussions (and also reading Bhagavad Gita and other

Vedantic scriptures) honestly, I do not need to tell you how to cope

up with the event that you have narrated here. All events that happen

in our life are transients including the expression of one's

emotions! I am quite confident that you will not have any difficulty

in understanding `this fact of life' and with this understanding; we

should move on to face the next situation.

praNAms Sri Ramachandran prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Yes, I am a veteran vEdAntin with full of information bank without any

knowledge :-))...you know prabhuji, yesterday, this veteran vEdAnti engaged

in a heated discussion with his boss with regard to his CTC . All for the

matter of some percentage hike in CTC, this veteran vEdAnti, spent almost

two hours with him in a tense mood & I had to skip my sAyam saNdhya &

vEdAdhyayana for this wasted talk :-)) & this veteran vEdAnti, disturbed

by this heated exchange, went home in a detrimental mood, fired left &

right his son, who made a silly mistake in his homework!! It cannot say

that, being a vEdAntin, I just acted according to these situations...I

admit that really I lost myself in these situations...I dont know when

these vEdAntic informations in me turn to *knowledge*...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

July 26, 2007

Hello Bhaskar!

And welcome to the human race! We have many ideals in

our heads about how we, other people, the " world " ,

God, and everything in the universe " should " or

" ought " to be! How many times do I comapre my life,

actions, etc to what I " know " to be the truth? Ha! I

think that's part of it. Maybe we have to be humble

enough to tolerate the fact that we're not acting and

thinking based on our knowledge. Maybe we're not as

" advanced " as we think we are! Sometimes I have to be

pulled back down to earth--usually a hard fall! I'm

nowhere near as " spiritual " as I think I am! Well, AT

LEAST maybe we can see that and not just blindly do

karmas without thought or self-questioning. I

sympathize with you! You are me and I am you! We both

see these inconsistencies, feel badly about them,

resolve to " do better " , try to apply the teachings etc

etc. I think maybe God still loves us, though, and

ultimately all return to Him, He returns to Himself.

Let's be gentle with other's shortcomings as well as

our own...let's not take things so seriously, knowing

that they pass, let's not forget that we're all in the

same boat (hopefully not sinking!), let's pull back

from the " world " a little and see it as God's play a

few times a day...let's see if we can incrementally

change what we can and accept what we can't...Peace

and best wishes, Steve.

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July 26, 2007

Hi bhAskar-ji,

<<Yes, I am a veteran vEdAntin with full of information bank without any