Locus of ignorance?- Is Maaya equal to Avidya ?

[Guest guest]

Sadaji writes :

 

(What is the nature of avidya in advaita? - it is

sat-asat the same as maaya and hence anirvacaniiyam or

inexplicable.

 

>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>

 

If one says - ignorance or avidya - then Jiiva is the

locus. If you use the term maaya - the creative

power, then Iswara is the locus. Brahman includes

jiiva, Iswara and Creation, maaya and anything else

you want to add since there cannot be anything other

than Brahman. As a working hypothesis, one can say -

Brahman in the form of Iswara is the locus of maaya

and Brahman in the form of jiiva is the locus for

avidya or ignorance.)

 

Sadaji - In all fairness to my Twin sister Maaya ( for i can call

myself 'avidya) do you seriously think Maaya= avidya ?

 

Swami Krishnananda says

 

" 4, 5. Maya is Indescribable (Sat-Asat-Vilakshana Anadi Bhava Rupa

Anirvachaniya Maya). She is neither Sat nor Asat. Maya is Anadi

Santam. She is beginningless but has an end only for the sage who

has realised the Self. Maya is Suddha Sattwa or pure Sattwa.

 

Maya is neither Sat nor Asat, neither real nor unreal,

neither is, nor is not. It transcends human comprehension, it stands

above all ratiocination, it controls even the reasoning capacity of

the individual. The degree of intelligence of a person is

proportional to to what extent he is freed from the stupefying

influence of Maya. It is hard to withdraw oneself from its clutches

for it originates from and is based on the Eternal Brahman Itself.

That which is based on the Infinite Reality must therefore be a

hideous power difficult to win victory over. To extricate oneself

from the hypnotic effect of this Divine Illusion the individual has

to dehypnotise himself into the consciousness of Self-Illumination

and absoluteness.

 

The nature of Maya is Anadi-Bhava or beginningless existence

and is Anirvachaniya or inexpressible by speech. It is Sat-Asat-

Vilakshana, distinct from existence and non-existence. It is Anadi-

Santam, without beginning, but with an end. It is ended by

Brahmajnana or Absolute Wisdom arrived at through intense meditation

or Nididhyasana. Maya differs from Brahman in that Brahman is Anadi-

Anantam, beginningless and endless, whereas Maya is Santam or

removable. The origin of ignorance cannot be found out, but it is

well known that sages who have realised the Eternal Brahman free

themselves from the effects of Maya. One can only tell how to free

oneself from Maya, but one cannot say why Maya creates a universe.

 

*Maya is Shudda-*and is not preponderated by Rajas or Tamas.

That is the reason why Ishwara or the Cosmic Lord is uncontrolled

and unaffected by the hypnotising power of Maya. Ishwara who is the

Infinite limited by Maya is midway between the Indivisible Brahman

and the multiple universe. Hence Ishwara is conscious of the Eternal

Reality as well as of the diverse world of nature. He is in a sense,

the mediator between Jiva and Brahman. Here is the necessity of the

Jivas for developing devotion to God, for a sudden jumping into the

Infinite Brahman is hard for the ignorant Jivas, without the help of

the Universal Controller, Ishwara. Ishwara is the Personal God, the

object of religious worship, and Brahman is the Absolute Truth, the

object of philosophical quest. "

 

Sadaji , it will not be fair for me to ask you to explain what Swami

Krishnanandaji has stated above ! But i do feel very strongly that

Maya is not 'avidya' - there are two aspects of 'Maaya' - a)Vidya

Maya which liberates and b) Avidya Maya Which enslaves you in the

world of Senses , deaires etc ... This is not a shakta group so i am

not going to sing the praises of the Liberating Maaya also known as

Shakti or the Divine creatrix!

 

Shyamji mentioned about Purusha Suktham and mentioned daSAngulam " -

beyondten fingers - meaning beyond count i.e.infinity(what a

wonderful perfect manner of indicating infinity! but contrast that

with how Sri Lalita Sahasaranama describes DEVI'S INFINITE CREATIVE

POWER - Karaahnguli Nakhodaya Vishnu - From her Ten fingernails ,

Devi created the 10 incarnations of Sri Vishnu bhagwan! Far be ir

for me to suggest whether vishu is superior or devi is superior! I

will leave that battle to be fought between shaktas and

vaishnavites !

 

But i only want to reiterate this - Maya is 'shuddha;' tattwa and

one of the 36 cosmic principles and for Shaivites she is all

powerful 'vimarsha' shakti and maybe for vedantins she is locus of

ignorance ? am i wrong in interpreting it this way - please correct

me ...

 

other than this , i am enjoying the scholarly and brilliant

discussion going on here

 

thanx for all your wonderful commentary on many aspects of vedanta

 

Om Shakti ! Shakti Om !

 

ps i always wonder why Shri Ramakrishna said 'shakti is brahman and

Brahman is shakti' ! Maybe to a jnani everything is brahman

including Maya shakti! :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

For those of you who would like to access Swami Krishnananda's

wonderful articles on the Nature Of Maya - here is the link

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/moksh/moksh_03.html

 

i really enjoyed hese series of articles . Hope you all do too!

 

love and regards

 

 

 

 

 

> Swami Krishnananda says

>

" 4, 5. Maya is Indescribable (Sat-Asat-Vilakshana Anadi Bhava Rupa

> Anirvachaniya Maya). She is neither Sat nor Asat. Maya is Anadi

> Santam. She is beginningless but has an end only for the sage who

> has realised the Self. Maya is Suddha Sattwa or pure Sattwa.

>

>

[Guest guest]

But i do feel very strongly that Maya is not 'avidya' - there are two

aspects of 'Maaya' - a)Vidya Maya which liberates and b) Avidya Maya Which

enslaves you in the world of Senses , deaires etc ... This is not a shakta

group so i am

not going to sing the praises of the Liberating Maaya also known as Shakti

or the Divine creatrix!

 

praNAms Adi mAtAji

Hare Krishna

 

Yes, I do read somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna paramahaMsa too says that

there are two types of mAyA...One is mahAmAyi who has given frequent

darshan-s to her devotees & talked with them & guided them with compassion

/ mAtru vAtsalya..There are plenty of slOka-s, stuti-s, sUkta-s in vEda-s

on this divine & auspicious form of jaganmAtA. There are stOtra-s like

bhavAni ashtaka, soundaryalahari, dEvi aparAdha kshamApaNa stOtra,

annapUrNa stOtra etc. etc. available in the name of shankara bhagavadpAda &

even today advaita bhakta-s chanting these stOtra-s & maNtra-s with utmost

devotion to proficiate this *stree rUpa* (female form) of parabrahman. My

humble prostrations to this dEvi jaganmAtA.

 

But when we turn our face to shankara-s prasthAna trayi bhAshya to look at

the meaning of *mAyA* from strict philosophical view point, this mAyA term

has been used by shankara frequently to denote that this is a projected

thing or brought forth by avidyA!! shankara very often used the

terminology *mAya* for *false appearance*...In the rope-snake analogy, it

can be said our wrong knowledge (mithyA jnAna/avidyA/ajnAna) about rope

causes the *false appearance* (mAyA) of snake...So, in short mAyA means

false appearance which appears as if it is really there due to ignorance of

the really real (satyastha satya) thing. Hence, from the strict vEdAntic

view point ( one may argue that without devotion/bhakti philosophy is

kEvala shushka (dry) jnAna (knowledge)....but sorry, fact remains like that

) avidyA is subjective defect and mAyA is an objective false appearance due

to this ignorance. From this we can say that ignorance gives the existence

for the false appearance. Going by this, shankara in his prasthAna trayi

bhAshya while explaining the concept of mAya uses terms like avidyAkalpitA

(conjured up or imagined by avidyA), avidyAlakshaNa, avidyAkruta,

avidyApratyupasthApita etc. etc. All of these terms mean the objective

appearance is due to avidyA.

 

So, this is the primary meaning of mAya that one can derive from shankara

bhAshya. In ArambhaNAdhikaraNa sUtra bhAshya shankara explains the term

mAya as : " fictitiously imagined by avidyA as though they were identical

with the omniscient Lord, name & form undefinable either as Ishwara himself

or distinct from him, the cause of this manifold world of mundane life, are

called in the shruti and the smruti *mAyA* a causal potentiality and

prakruti " .

 

Apart from this elsewhere shankara, by going on the above lines, says mAyA

is vyAktAvyaktAtmaka, vyAkruta -avyAkruta, mAya is anirvachanIya, mAya as

Ishwara shakti etc. etc. But before interpreting all these alternative

terms, we should always keep in mind the primary meaning of mAya i.e. mAya

is avidyA kalpita. One may raises a question here about anyOnyAshraya

dOsha (mind-avidyA-mAya & in turn mind itself is a product of mAya etc.) in

saying mAya is the product of avidyA...But that would not be the case if we

correctly analyse the lOkAnubhava (common experience) & understood the

context & purpose of these explanations.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

PS : Hope, the above mail would not again drive us to endless debate as

we had in *pUrNamadaM* :-)))

[Guest guest]

Dhyanasaraswatiji - PraNAms

 

Here is my understanding.

 

As I see it, avidya and maaya both are inexplicable

and any further explanation about the inexplicable

will be a self-contradiction, since self alone is the

truth, which is also inexplicable, but it is real and

not mithyaa like avidya and maaya.

 

maaya and avidya are brought in to explain why

creation, why I feel 'I am' is separate from creation,

and why feel that I am as well as the world is

created. avidya is from the jiiva's point, since he

does not know the truth about 'I am', when he

identifies 'I am this'. The confusion of identifying

'I am' a conscious entity with 'this' unconscious

entity is due to fundamental ignorance of lack of

self-knowledge- and seems to be universal to all

beings and hence is considered to be as the root cause

for creation of all misguided nations that I am this.

That is the essence of ‘adhyaasa bhaaShya’ that

Shankara provided in his introduction of his bhaaShya

to Brahmasuutras. – Those who are interested, one can

download the notes on Brahmasuutra where adhyaasa

bhaaShya part is extensively discussed. Shree Dennis

has provided an abridged version of it, discarding

Sanskrit terms.

 

 

Hence elimination of avidya at jiiva level, does not

eliminate the objective creation (cause of which is

maaya) unless the avidyaa of every jiiva in the

creation is resolved. Hence Iswara and Jiivas will

continue as long as there is even one jiiva left with

misunderstanding notion that I am this. Hence avidya

is centered on individual jiiva, while maaya which is

the creator power comes from the totality. But for

the cause for maaya to manifest is again back to

collective ignorance of all jiivas – and one can give

a name – muula avidya, if one wants. One can just

say, ignorance in maayaa form projects the worlds –

this is all words, words, as long as we understand the

essence. More important, as Shankara says, is to

inquire not about ignorance but the truth of oneself,

since any further inquiry about ignorance will be

within the ignorance only, as we started with a

statement that both maaya and avidya are inexplicable.

 

 

One can go little deeper for the cause of maaya - When

jiiva inquires where did this universe of plurality

come in then only concept of maaya - as a power of

creation - one becoming many - or the power by which

one becomes many - is invoked - this is to explain the

creation that is seen.

 

Hence understanding of advaita involves understanding

that the creation is not real and is mithyaa. But

mithyaa involves experience of duality but jiivanmukta

understands that the experienced duality is not

reality. That becomes a part of the self-knowledge -

that I am the self in all - all that is seen is just

my glory - as Krishna declares. Hence 'brahma satyam,

jagat mithyaa, jiivo brahmaiva na aparaH' - is the

complete understanding of I am - as emphasized by

mAnDUkya.

 

When jiiva projects plurality in the dream world,

where he is the creator of his dream world, he is the

locus of that power of projection - maaya. But he also

takes himself as a subject in his own projection of

plurality and forgets that he is the one who is the

author of that dream world. We can say that he has the

avidya about himself when he fails to recognize that

he is the author of the dream world. Thus maaya and

avidya both are playing, one in the projection and the

other in not knowing who he really is. From the

dreamer's point, the dream world and the plurality as

well as his ignorance are all anaadi or beginnigless

and inexplicable.

 

The inexplicable can be explained in term of suddha

and asudhha, etc. But, from my understanding, any

further explanation about the inexplicable is of no

help to me in my realization of Who I am. I am not

sure if Shaastra provides any further explanation of

maaya. In fact, dvaitins protest that maaya has never

been used in the scriptures in the way advaita

explains. Of course they have their way of explaining

the inexplicable, in which I am not interested

either.

 

So I do not want dvaitins to come here and explain

that our explanation is wrong and their explanation is

right, about that which cannot be explained in the

first place.

 

Shree Bhaskar has provided good explanation for those

who are further interested in this topic.

 

Since I have no further interest in this, I will stop

here thanking all the discussors for providing me an

oportunity to present my understanding. If it helps

that is His glory; if it does not help, it is again

His glory!

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

--- dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati wrote:

 

> Sadaji writes :

>

> (What is the nature of avidya in advaita? - it is

> sat-asat the same as maaya and hence anirvacaniiyam

> or

> inexplicable.

>

> >>>>>>snip>>>>>>>

>

> Sadaji - In all fairness to my Twin sister Maaya (

> for i can call

> myself 'avidya) do you seriously think Maaya= avidya

> ?

>

> Swami Krishnananda says

>

> " 4, 5. Maya is Indescribable (Sat-Asat-Vilakshana

> Anadi Bhava Rupa

> Anirvachaniya Maya). She is neither Sat nor Asat.

> Maya is Anadi

> Santam. She is beginningless but has an end only for

> the sage who

> has realised the Self. Maya is Suddha Sattwa or pure

> Sattwa.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Prabhuji for explaining the term 'Maaya' from the point of

view of an Advaitin. Prabhuji ! You are singing to the choir when

you say:

 

(There are plenty of slOka-s, stuti-s, sUkta-s in vEda-s

on this divine & auspicious form of jaganmAtA. There are stOtra-s

like bhavAni ashtaka, soundaryalahari, dEvi aparAdha kshamApaNa

stOtra, annapUrNa stOtra etc. etc. available in the name of shankara

bhagavadpAda & even today advaita bhakta-s chanting these stOtra-s &

maNtra-s with utmost devotion to proficiate this *stree rUpa*

(female form) of parabrahman. My humble prostrations to this dEvi

jaganmAtA.)

 

Prabhuji , i am totally familiar with this part of Adi Shankara

Bhagvadapada's writings . Adi shankara himself refers to Jaganmata

as a jnana mata AND HOW HE HAS BEEN enriched by drinking HER milk

of knowledge ( jnanapaal)!

 

Annapoorne Sada poorne, Shankara Pranavallabhe

Gyana Vairagya Sidyartham, Bhikshaam Dehi cha Parvati

 

O Annapurna, Who art ever full, the beloved life-force of Lord

Sankara (Shive, O' Parvathi – grant me alms that I be firmly

established in Knowledge and Renunciation!

 

YES! Here in this verse Parama Jnani Shankara Bhagvadapada himself

is begging for 'spiritual food' ( not just ordinary Biksha but jnana

diksha) without Devi's grace ,( kataksha or anugraham) even 'jnana'

cannot be attained !

 

i would encourage you to read Professorji's post number #22018

wherin he describes Lord Shiva as a BikshhATana' (the roaming

mendicant). There is a beautiful explanation for this , Prabhuji!

 

A subhashita goes like this

 

Swayam pancamukha putro gajanana shadannanano

digambaraha katham jivet annapurna na cha grihe

 

shiva has five mouths (panchamukaha) ganesha has the mouth of an

elephant (gajanana -voracious eater) shanmukha the other son has six

mouths (shadannana) how would shiva (digambaraha -one wears sky as a

clothing) survive if mother Annapurna (Parvati) was not at

home ?

 

Yes! Annapuni is the 'complete' nurturer ! She gives ordinary 'food'

to the hungry and spiritual food to the True seeker ! She

is 'Purnam'

 

Prabhuji and sadaji , i want to thank you both for a lucid

explanation of why Maaya is called 'avidya ' in Advaitic

parlance ... i am really trying to understand all this - You know ,

for noivices like me 'the bhasyas' ( brahma sutras) etc are

formidable texts and i feel lost sometimes !

 

however , my simplistic mind would like to make only one point ( and

i am not arguing from a Shakta perspective either! Smile) Can you

learn something about a 'deep sleep' from someone who is in deep

sleep or fully awake ? The answer is A jnani is always 'fully' awake

for he is beyond all the three states - avastana trayi! hence , in

my humble opinion , to a Jnani even 'maya' is Consciousness only !

here i would like to quote verse 69 of chapter 2:

 

ya nisa sarva-bhutanam

tasyam jagarti samyami

yasyam jagrati bhutani

sa nisa pasyato muneh

 

Srila Prabhupada's explananation

 

What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-

controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for

the introspective sage.

 

The point that is being made is to all ajnanis 'maya' is avidya but

to a jnani like Sri Ramana ,etc even maya' is consciousness - she

is 'chaitanya' btw , this is not a shakta premise - this is the

premise of a parama jnani!

 

Sadaji i really want to thank you and prabhuji for very lucid

explanations and let me contemplate on this a little more ! My

question to you all is sometimes 'vidya' can also become a vritti !

smile:-)

 

Salutions to Annapurna , the regining goddess of Kashi , the

mokshapuri!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

> Dhyanasaraswatiji - PraNAms

>

> Here is my understanding.

>

> As I see it, avidya and maaya both are inexplicable

> and any further explanation about the inexplicable

> will be a self-contradiction, since self alone is the

> truth, which is also inexplicable, but it is real and

> not mithyaa like avidya and maaya.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My question to you all is sometimes 'vidya' can also become a vritti !

smile:-)

 

praNAms Sri Adi mAtAji

Hare Krishna

 

Yes mAtAji, you are right. Since there are no dealings such as vidyA

avidyA in Absolute...vidyA what we consider in mundane life is also a

mental vrutti. The firm conviction that one's own real nature is called as

self knowledge (Atma vidyA) which is also a mental condition!! From the

standpoing of avidyA vyavahAra, the self itself has been labelled as ajnAni

( due to lack of discriminatory knowledge of self and non self / Atma and

anAtma)..and when the knowledge dawns, the same self has been elevated to

the status of jnAni (this is again because of the modification of the mind

which is unreal likewise its discrimanatury knowledge between Atma & anAtma

vastu). This has been clearly stated by shankara bhagavadpAda in his

commentary on : vEdavinAshinaM nityaM, ya yEnaM ajaM avyayaM, kaThaM sa

purushaH pArTha kaM ghAtayati haNti kaM....After waking, we will come to

know that both right & wrong knowledge in dream are wrong/false knowledge

only...similarly, when both right/wrong knowledge of Atman witnessed from

absolute non-dual stand, it is obvious that both are *avidyA vyavahAra

only*...So in the real nature of Atman there is no mundane dealings of

vidyA & avidyA...

 

So , there is lot of inherent meaning behind your casual smile after the

above statement..mAtAji....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Thank you Bhaskar Prabhuji for a lucid explanation on Vidya Vritti !

 

You write :

 

(So , there is lot of inherent meaning behind your casual smile

after the > above statement..mAtAji....)

 

Yes! Prabhuji ! There are many reasons behind an 'enigmatic' smile!

 

When a politician smiles , He wants more 'votes'

 

When a saleman smiles . He wants to 'sell ' you something !

 

When a Saint smiles, He is smiling because his heart full of Sat-

chit-ananda !

 

When Sita smiled in the Rama Darbar , she smiled because she knew

why Rama made her undego the 'agni pariksha ' knowing well she is

fully innocent! Rama did so only to appease the Praja!

 

and when adima smiles she smiles knowing fully well that

Paramarthika satyam ( such as Ishwara/brahman) etc can only be

arrived at by Vyavahrika body/mind/intellect !

 

It is the supreme Ishwara, who, by his own sweet will, sports

in the form of the Prabhuji , adimaa . nairji , putranji , sadaji,

vinayakaji , rishiji etc etc ! These are his many manifestations !

Enjoy this 'error'

 

 

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> My question to you all is sometimes 'vidya' can also become a

vritti !

> smile:-)

>

> praNAms Sri Adi mAtAji

> Hare Krishna

>

>