Lord krishna's birth & his death !!!!

[Guest guest]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

I may be kindly pardoned if I am raising an untimely controversial

issue...I think we have discussed this topic earlier also..But just to get

the fresh perspective from the members of the forum, I am rekindling the

old topic.

 

Today, we are all happily celebrating the Lord Krishna's *janma* ashtami

(shrAvaNa krishna paksha ashtami tithi)...From the name of the festival

itself it is quite conspicuous that it is krishna's *janma dina*

(birthday) that we are celebrating today. So, we are officially believe

that Krishna is born on this earth, lived here with his parents, friends,

relations etc. and he did involve in all the human/superhuman activities...

when we talk about krishna's birth & its celebrations so happily.. is it

improper to talk about his death!!! When we are accepting the *birth* of

krishna, I dont know what exactly is the problem in accepting his death as

well....for that matter krishna himself says in gIta 'jAtasya hi dhruvO

mrutyuhu' is it not?? When we ask the same question to our dvaita

prabhuji-s, they say Lord Krishna did not get *death* like any mortal souls

do. He himself condemns this thought in the gIta calling people who think

that He is just an ordinary human being as 'fools'(avajAnanti mAm mUdhA,

mAnushIm tanumAshritaM etc.). He is the controller of mAya and so there is

no question Him undergoing birth and death. And according to them krishna's

birth & death is just like " apperance " and " disappearance " - as the sun

appears and disappears from our vision but in reality sun neither rise nor

set. & moreover, his body is not that of a mundane jIva's conditioned one's

his is the aprAkrutik sharIra which is ever youthful & charming etc. To

substantiate these claims they will quote a plenty from bhAgavata & other

purANa-s. But the fact remains that in

bhAgavataM itself there is clear mention of krishnAvasAna (death of

krishna) & after that his dynasty's internal quarrel (yAdavI kalaha). If

his birth & death is mere

appearance & disappearance, why at all those dramatic episodes at the time

of his birth

& his pastimes in childhood in bhAgavataM?? why he wanted to show his foot

to the hunter to end his physical form?? just like that he could have

disappeared in thin air is his body is permanent is it not?? if we ask

these questions to any dvaitins, they will come very hard at you & finally

call you *daiva drOhi* & conclude that these questions are nothing but

blasphemy!!.

 

We are ready to celebrate Krishna JanmAshtami but not ready to accept his

death...this is called mAya. Is it not ??

 

Just few awkward thoughts from a krishna bhakta on this krishna janmAshtami

:-))

 

On this auspicious occassion, may the Lord shower his choicest blessings on

all of us .

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste dear Bhaskar Prabhuji:

 

You are absoluely right that it is a controversial subject and the

discussion will not likely provide any spiritual insights to the

seekers. The popular saying " Do what Rama did and Krishna said "

provide us the clue to why shouldn't dig into the birth and death of

Krishna. I have taken the relevant excerpts from Gandhiji's book to

provide you some clues. We can all contemplate on Gandhiji's words

instead of starting an unnecessary debate on right and wrong of the

question that you have raised.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

------------------------

 

Here is a excerpt from " THE MESSAGE OF THE GITA " by Gandhiji which

answers your question:

 

Even in 1888-89, when I first became acquainted with the Gita, I felt

that it was not a historical work, but that under the guise of

physical warfare, it described the duel that perpetually went on in

the hearts of mankind, and that physical warfare was brought in

merely to make the description of the internal duel more alluring.

This preliminary intuition became more confirmed on a closer study of

religion and the Gita. A study of the Mahabharata gave it added

confirmation. I do not regard the Mahabharata as a historical work in

the accepted sense. The Adiparva contains powerful evidence in

support of my opinion. By ascribing to the chief actors superhuman or

subhuman origins, the great Vyasa made short work of the history of

kings and their peoples. The persons therein described may be

historical but the author of the Mahabharata has used them merely to

drive home his religious theme.

 

2. The author of the Mahabharata has not established the necessity

of physical warfare; on the contrary he has proved its futility. He

has made the victors shed tears of sorrow and repentance, and has

left them nothing but a legacy of miseries.

 

3. In this great work the Gita is the crown. Its second chapter,

instead of teaching the rules of physical warfare, tells us how a

perfected man is to be known. In the characteristics of the perfected

man of the Gita, I do not see any to correspond to physical warfare.

Its whole design is inconsistent with the rules of conduct governing

the relations between warring parties.

4. Krishna of the Gita is perfection and right knowledge

personified; but the picture is imaginary. That does not mean that

Krishna, the adored of his people, never lived. But perfection is

imagined. The idea of a perfect incarnation is an after growth.

 

5. In Hinduism, incarnation is ascribed to one who has performed some

extraordinary service of mankind. All embodied life is in reality an

incarnation of God, but it is not usual to consider every living

being an incarnation. Future generations pay this homage to one who,

in his own generation, has been extraordinarily religious in his

conduct. I can see nothing wrong in this procedure; it takes nothing

from God's greatness and there is no violence done to Truth. There is

an Urdu saying `which means, " Adam is not God but he is a spark of

the Divine. " And therefore he who is the most religiously behaved has

most of the divine spark in him. It is in accordance with this train

of thought that Krishna enjoys, in Hinduism, the status of the most

perfect incarnation.

 

6. This belief in incarnation is a testimony of man's lofty spiritual

ambition. Man is not at peace with himself till he has become like

unto God. The endeavor to reach this state is the supreme, the only

ambition worth having. And this is self realization. This self

realization is the subject of the Gita, as it is of all scriptures.

But its author surely did not write it to establish that doctrine.

The object of the Gita appears to me to be that of showing the most

excellent way to attain self realization. That which is to be found,

more or less clearly, spread out here and there in Hindu religious

books, has been brought out in the clearest possible language in the

Gita even at the risk of repetition.

 

7. That matchless remedy is renunciation of the fruits of action.

 

8. This is the center round which the Gita is woven. This

renunciation is the central sun, round which devotion, knowledge and

the rest revolve like planets. The body has been likened to a prison.

There must be action where there is body. Not one embodied being is

exempted from labor. And yet all religions proclaim that it is

possible for man, by treating the body as the temple of God, to

attain freedom. Every action is tainted, be it ever so trivial. How

can the body be made the temple of God? In other words how can one be

free from action, i.e. from the taint of sin? The Gita has answered

the question in decisive language: " By desireless action; by

renouncing the fruits of action; by dedicating all activities to God,

i.e. by surrendering oneself to Him body and soul. "

 

9. But desirelessness or renunciation does not come for the mere

talking about it. It is not attained by an intellectual feat. It is

attainable only by a constant heart-churn. Right knowledge is

necessary for attaining renunciation. Learned men possess knowledge

of a kind. They may recite the Vedas from memory, yet they may be

steeped in self indulgence. In order that knowledge may not run riot,

the author of the Gita has insisted on devotion accompanying it and

has given it the first place. Knowledge without devotion will be like

a misfire. Therefore, says the Gita, " Have devotion, and knowledge

will follow. " This devotion is not mere lip-worship; it is a

wrestling with death. Hence the Gita's assessment of the devotee's

qualities is similar to that of the sage's.

 

10. Thus the devotion required by the Gita is no soft-hearted

effusiveness. It certainly is not blind faith. The devotion of the

Gita has the least to do with externals. A devotee may use, if he

likes, rosaries, forehead marks, make offerings, but these things are

not test of his devotion. He is the devotee who is jealous of none,

who is a fount of mercy, who is without egotism, who is selfless, who

treats alike cold and heat, happiness and misery, who is ever

forgiving, who is always contented, whose resolutions are firm, who

has dedicated mind and soul to God, who causes no dread, who is not

afraid of others, who is free from exultation, sorrow and fear, who

is pure, who is versed in action and yet remains unaffected by it,

who renounces all fruit, good or bad, who treats friend and foe

alike, who is untouched by respect or disrespect, who is not puffed

up by praise, who does not go under when people speak ill of him, who

loves silence and solitude, who has a disciplined reason. Such

devotion is inconsistent with the existence at the same time of

strong attachments.

 

 

 

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> I may be kindly pardoned if I am raising an untimely controversial

> issue...I think we have discussed this topic earlier also..But just

to get

> the fresh perspective from the members of the forum, I am

rekindling the

> old topic.

>

[Guest guest]

Bhaskarji - PraNAms.

 

There is nothing controversial about the issue. That

was the exact issue raised by Arjuna and is the cause

for his sorrow and his inefficiency in fighting the

rightful war. 'That which is born must die' is of

course the truth.

 

But Krishna's the very first words of the teaching is

the eye-opening and is the essence of Giita, which

culminates in the vision of Virat swaruupa showing who

that Krishna is, as Ram unfolds the 11th Chapter of

Giita for us.

 

'You are crying where there is no reason to cry' -

there was never a time when I was not there, you were

not there and these kings that we are facing in front

of us, and there will never a time these will be

absent' - Hence Krishna while demonstrating that which

is born must die, He never dies since he is never

born, to start with.

 

We celebrate janmaaShTami because in the Krishna’s

form, He revitalized the whole Sanaatana Dharma - He

milked the Upanishad cows bringing out the essence of

Brahma vidya and showed us how to evolve and realize

that supreme reality, through yoga shaastra. He

reinterpreted the Karma (not just as Vedic rituals)

and extended the concept of Karma yoga as yoga of

action - explaining how one can be non-actor while

performing rightful or dhaaramic actions - how one

cannot die while the physical body that is assembled

from pancabhuutas go back into their essential

elements.

 

Krishna boyhood pranks forms the very basis for music

and dance - and all art forms - Where will Hinduism be

without Krishna. He penetrated every fragment of the

society, every fabric of the society. He is the king

of all kings without having any king dome of his own.

All kings and emperors bow down to Him with reverence.

He was the king maker. To make sure all impurities

are washed out completely, permitted the war that

destroyed all evil to reestablish Dharma that was

barely able to stand, otherwise. He is loved by all,

from the child to the old man. Everyone acknowledged

including Bhishma and Sanjaya that wherever He is,

there is dharma and whenever a dhaaramic action and

actor (Arjuna - who is straight forward without any

crooked actions, aarjavam) are, the ultimate victory

is ensured - 'yatra yogeswaraH Krishna yatra paarthaH

dhanurdharaH ..'

 

 

He showed us how to keep smiling, in spite of all odds

are against us. He thanked Gandhaari when she cursed

him out of anger that he and yadavaas get destroyed by

in side fighting. He was the master politician, great

friend and great relative. He protected Droupadi when

she surrendered completely. He came to Pandavas

rescue many times during their life time to the degree

that Kunti requests to give them more calamities so

that they can think of Him- ' He demonstrated his

teaching - 'those who surrendered to Me, I will take

care of their yoga and kshema.

 

He is the universal teacher who could stand apart and

teach -while could declare I am Arjuna among Pandavas

- eliminating any reality to the teacher-taught

distinction. His teaching is passed on from

generations to come and will be living eternally as

pinnacle of Hindu thought.

 

Hence we are celebrating His birth day, knowing very

well, He is eternal. Our minds want to have

aalambanam for contemplation. What other great 'idol'

form we need than 'Krishna' who attracts all our minds

from child to the aged. Who says Krishna was not born

- for us everything is history but beyond history too

and Krishna does live eternally.

 

No, we do not want Him to leave this earth - We want

him to live eternally in the face of this earth - for

generations to come, uplifting every heart that comes

in contact with His plays, with His political

maneuvers doing as mature intellect and with His

eternal teaching.

 

I want to believe Krishna was born but is eternal

living in every heart that glories His presence.

Through His viswaruupa, He shows his presence

everywhere, in every being in every movable and

immovable, in every nook and corner, in every

beautiful flower and tree, in the innocent smile of

every child that is born and in the smile of great

grand father when he looks at the smiling great grand

child.

 

No! Krishna never died, for us to think of His death

or celebrating his departure, since He is eternally

living in every action, in every thought and in every

heart as He, himself declared in Giita.

 

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> I may be kindly pardoned if I am raising an untimely

> controversial

> issue...

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

If

> his birth & death is mere

> appearance & disappearance, why at all those dramatic episodes at

the time

> of his birth

> & his pastimes in childhood in bhAgavataM?? why he wanted to show

his foot

> to the hunter to end his physical form?? just like that he could have

> disappeared in thin air is his body is permanent is it not??

 

Dear Bhaskar-ji,

 

praNAms,

 

What a question on janmAshtami day prabhuji?!!Grrrr :-)

 

He died that way to fulfill a prophecy of a sage! The arrow which was

shot by a hunter had a piece of a kind of wood (musala?)by which

majority of the yAdavas were destined to die. This was a curse of a

virtuous sage. He chose to die that way because,as a ishwara he alone

is answerable to that sage, if his legitimate prophecy fails. That is

his dharma is it not???

 

>>>>> if we ask

> these questions to any dvaitins, they will come very hard at you &

finally

> call you *daiva drOhi* & conclude that these questions are nothing but

> blasphemy!!.

>

> We are ready to celebrate Krishna JanmAshtami but not ready to

accept his

> death...this is called mAya. Is it not ??

>

> Just few awkward thoughts from a krishna bhakta on this krishna

janmAshtami

> :-))

 

If you consider this as a 'literal end' of sri krishna, then even

advaitins will not spare you. :-)) Because krishna is ishwara(even

according to shankara). So without slightest doubt and with faith

please say.....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Namaste all

 

Since the question has been raised, I cannot but refer you to the

following web page (along with three succeeding pages) for a discussion

of the topic made at a public meeting in Delawere some fifteen years

ago, under the title 'Krishnavatara, the Miraculous'.

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/HNG/Krishnavatarapage1.html

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

NAMASTE, ALL

Lord Krishna takes birth as/in Atma, whenever one has a bad thought or evil

thught. He comes with Gita and gives the correct advise to all on such

occasions. Whenever one slips from Dharma (YADA YADA HI DHARMASYA

GLANIRBHAVATI), He takes birth to protect Dharma. However, people do not listen

to Him, just because of Kama & Krodha.

This is how Krishna's Birth, Avatara, is explained by one Swamiji.

With warm regards

 

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> NAMASTE, ALL

> Lord Krishna takes birth as/in Atma, whenever one has a bad

thought or evil thught. He comes with Gita and gives the correct

advise to all on such occasions. Whenever one slips from Dharma (YADA

YADA HI DHARMASYA GLANIRBHAVATI), He takes birth to protect Dharma.

However, people do not listen to Him, just because of Kama & Krodha.

> This is how Krishna's Birth, Avatara, is explained by one Swamiji.

> With warm regards

>

> R. S. Mani

>

 

 

Namaste Mani-Ji:

 

I think what you are saying is correct but I would slightly modify

the statement in the following manner.

 

IMO - If we say it this way then it will be a dualistic way.

However, if one says that he arises out of all from within of us then

it would an advatin way because he is part of the same brahman that

you (meaning - everyone) are ! " US " and " HIM " are part of the

same " brahman "

 

The real trikaalaatiita truth is the reality of birth and

death. " jaatasyahi dhR^ivo mR^ityuH " - Any thing that has been

born (or created) must die. There are no exceptions to this absolute

truth. This even applies to living as well a non-living entities.

Just look the pyramids or any old excavations.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

Respected Yaduji,

Namaste and Thank you.

Any decline of Dharma first takes place as a thought in the mind and whenever

it happens Lord Krishna tells “Ma Nishada”. So, Krishna takes Avatara whenever

there is a decline of Dharma. This is how Swamiji explained the verse.

Further, Krishna as presented in the Bhagavad Gita is not any mortal being. He

or It is Gnanam Itself and whenever He says take refuge in Me, He means take

refuge in Gnanam. Is that not the Lakshyartha?

Kindly correct me

Warm regards,

Mani

 

 

 

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

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