Krishna and Visvarupa

[Guest guest]

Shri Bhaskarji,

 

I too have got rid of my moha, wrong understanding after seeing your post.

It is very clear there. Thanks very much.

 

S.N.Sastri

 

 

 

 

 

But if we see gIta, after listening to elaborated gItOpadEsha arjuna

himself promptly admits at the end (18-73) that, " nashtO mOhaH

smutirlabdA! tvatprasAdAnmayAchuta!! sthitOsmi gata samshayaH! karishye

vachanaM tava!!(krishna, by your grace my delusion has fled and wisdom has

been gained & all doubts eradicated, now I'll do whatever you say.

 

Here it does not imply that arjuna has realised ONLY his *kshAtra dharma*

on the battle field, rather he says *jnAna* is gained...Interestingly,

shankara himself while commenting on this verse, says, *arjuna has realized

the ultimate truth & got the *saMyag jnAna* & he did not imply here that

*arjuna* has been provided ONLY glimpse of jnAna by gItAchArya...nor it is

said that it is ONLY his doubt vanished with regard to the battle he was

due to fight.

 

Sri sastri prabhuji, any comment on this !!??

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Nair,

You were right about Arjuna. Bhaskarji has pointed out that the bhashya

specifically says that Arjuna got realization at the end of ch.18. So there

is no room for any doubt now. But I am puzzled how Arjuna says later that he

forgot everything. Why does a realized soul want further instruction? It is

said, after realization, na Sasta,

na SAstram, na Sishyo, na Siksha, etc. Anyway that is beside the point. I

should have looked up ch.18 bhashya before replying to you. This is a lesson

to be more modest!

S.N.Sastri

 

 

On 9/9/07, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

>

> Dear Respected Shri Sastri-ji,

>

> Thank you, Sir, very much for your elaborate clarifications in post

> # 37188.

>

> I fully accept your explanations about the gopikAs and Bhaskarji's

> doubt. That is new light. I am also in complete agreement with you

> that the viSvarUpa darSana in ch.11 was an elaborate demonstration of

> what was going to be stated in a condensed form subsequently in gItA

> 13.30. However, the way you see Arjuna's experience is still a

> little baffling to me for the following reasons:

>

> 1. BG appears as a narrative by Sanjaya. It is claimed in 18:75

> by Sanjaya himself that he could narrate the conversation between

> Lord Krishna and Arjuna due only to the grace of Vyasa (the author).

>

> 2. That lends credence to the assumption that what we have in

> hand is a dramatic situation and the message conveyed is of more

> importance than the situation itself.

>

> 3. `AnugItA' should therefore be considered as another ideal

> situation created to reinforce the same old message conveyed at the

> battlefield. Isn't that the way all great works work and influence

> us?

>

> 4. The question that should bother us at the end of the day is

> whether we are enlightened and not if Arjuna was. BG is meant for

> each one of us.

>

> 5. An `advance vision of enlightenment' that is later erased

> sounds impossible and infeasible advaitically unless we take the

> whole story too literally. One can listen to a lot of advaita,

> appreciate it fully and then later forget the details. This happens

> to most of us. But, a strong realization of deep impact such as

> Arjuna had that everything is Ishwara is not likely to wane in time.

>

> 6. Lastly, in 18:77 Sanjaya also remembers the Cosmic Form of

> the Lord and horripilates every time he recalls that experience. Why

> such recall and thrill should be denied to poor Arjuna?

>

> Kindly permit me to borrow the following words of Sw. Dayanandaji

> from his interpretation quoted here before by Ramji:

>

> " And Krishna reveals this cosmic form to him. We can take it as

> something that happened or simply as a presentation of the subject

> matter showing that nothing is away from Isvara. "

>

> For all the above, I tend to consider vishwarUpa as a grand

> presentation by Vyasa. We also can see the vishwarUpa.

> Unfortunately, we always end up seeing the vishwa instead. Bhagwan's

> Grace is all that is needed to shift our focus.

>

> Kindly don't take all this as vitandvAda.

>

> PraNAms and respectful regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Shri Sastri-ji.

 

Kindly rest assured that you were at your modest best and had very

valid points to highlight. Reading your responses was therefore an

edifying experience for me.

 

Even Sw. Dayananda Saraswati feels that the Lord said everything that

was to be said in the 2nd Chapter itself, which would mean that the

later chapters were repeated reinforcements from different angles.

In that sense, the whole of Mahabharata can be taken as a series of

reinforcements and an Arjuna of unquenchable doubts was a dramatic

pre-requisite for Vyasa to present the same philosophy from different

angles over and over again.

 

PraNAms and best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________

 

 

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

But I am puzzled how Arjuna says later that he

> forgot everything. Why does a realized soul want further

instruction? It is

> said, after realization, na Sasta,

> na SAstram, na Sishyo, na Siksha, etc. Anyway that is beside the

point. I

> should have looked up ch.18 bhashya before replying to you. This is

a lesson

> to be more modest!

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Nair,

> You were right about Arjuna. Bhaskarji has pointed out that the bhashya

> specifically says that Arjuna got realization at the end of ch.18.

So there

> is no room for any doubt now. But I am puzzled how Arjuna says later

that he

> forgot everything. Why does a realized soul want further

instruction? It is

> said, after realization, na Sasta,

> na SAstram, na Sishyo, na Siksha, etc. Anyway that is beside the

point. I

> should have looked up ch.18 bhashya before replying to you. This is

a lesson

> to be more modest!

> S.N.Sastri

 

PraNAms Shastri-ji,

 

I think there is one more puzzle to be solved. I distinctly remember,

in one place AchArya while commenting on a verse specifically says

that, arjuna was NOT ready for jnana yoga/life of contemplation and

hence krishna asks him to do karma yoga (for some more time?) i.e.

following his kshAtra dharma. And now bhaskar prabhuji has shown this

reference wherein achArya says that arjuna did gain samyak jnAna. I

don't know how to reconcile these two statements. Unfortunately, I did

not made a note of that sloka and have no proper reference to give.

 

Hope I remember the statement correctly. Corrections/proper reference

will be very much appreciated.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

bhashya specifically says that Arjuna got realization at the end of ch.18.

So there is no room for any doubt now. But I am puzzled how Arjuna says

later that he forgot everything. Why does a realized soul want further

instruction? It is

said, after realization, na Sasta, na SAstram, na Sishyo, na Siksha, etc

 

praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Sri Sastri prabhuji, do you think this is a potential evidence for the

difference between brahma jnAna & jIvanmukti as defined in the jIvanmukti

vivEka by Sri vidyAraNya ?? arjuna got the brahma jnAna from the Lord but

did not get the ultimate mukti, hence, due to lack of prasankhyAna he has

forgotten this jnAna subsequently & again succumbed to ahaMkAra &

mamakAra after sometime!!!

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

> advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote:

> > I

> don't know how to reconcile these two statements. Unfortunately, I did

> not made a note of that sloka and have no proper reference to give.

>

> Hope I remember the statement correctly. Corrections/proper reference

> will be very much appreciated.

 

Namaste,

 

The reference is to Gita 2:47 (karmaNyevAdhikAraste....).

 

The whole of Ch. 3 answers the questions about how and why a

jnani appears to engage in action for 'loka-sangraha' (welfare of the

ignorant ones).

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Hi Bhaskar-ji,

 

I'm not sure whether or not you are being ironic here since you use a number

of exclamation marks at the end of your sentence! My understanding is that

jIvanmukti relates to j~nAna phalam only. brahma j~nAna is final. Once the

self-ignorance has gone, there is no going back. However, if sAdhana

chatuShTaya sampatti was not fully followed, enlightenment is not

automatically accompanied by the fruits of that knowledge, namely stength

and peace of mind etc.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

<<Sri Sastri prabhuji, do you think this is a potential evidence for the

difference between brahma jnAna & jIvanmukti as defined in the jIvanmukti

vivEka by Sri vidyAraNya ?? arjuna got the brahma jnAna from the Lord but

did not get the ultimate mukti, hence, due to lack of prasankhyAna he has

forgotten this jnAna subsequently & again succumbed to ahaMkAra &

mamakAra after sometime!!!>>

 

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=3

7217/stime=1189516297/nc1=4507179/nc2=3848583/nc3=4725794>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Sunder Hattangadi " <sunderh

wrote:

 

> Namaste,

>

> The reference is to Gita 2:47 (karmaNyevAdhikAraste....).

>

> The whole of Ch. 3 answers the questions about how and why a

> jnani appears to engage in action for 'loka-sangraha' (welfare of

the

> ignorant ones).

 

 

Dear Sunder-ji,

 

This is not the reference which I am looking for. While searching

for the passage which I had in mind, I got another passage from the

bhAshya with the similar statements made by AchArya. AchArya has got

a very clear definition of karma yoga. A jnAni's action cannot be

called as karma yoga because it is not karma in the first place, and

there is no one else for him to dedicate it to. This is what AchArya

says while commenting on the 13th shloka of the 12th Chapter:

 

" Also because the Lord, very much concerned with arjunA's well-

being, instructs him only in Karma Yoga, that is **unrelated to

right perception** but is **entrenched in the perception of

difference**.(yasmAccha arjunasya Atyantam eva hitaishI BhagavAn

tasya samyagdarshanAnvitam **karmayogam Bhedadrishtimantam eva**

upadishyati). None who has, through the right means of perception,

known the lord as his very self, seeks to subordinate himself to any

one else or thing. That will be self-contradictory. Therefore the

lord begins to set fort the group of characteristics which directly

immortalizes the worshippers of the imperishable who have secured

right perception and who have renounced all desires. "

 

This is not the only passage wherein achArya reiterates that arjuna

was not a jnAni and was fit for karma yoga only.(AchArya's

introduction to aitarEya upanishad and his elaborate discussion

sanyasa is worth recollecting) Interstingly this passage appears

next only to the 11th chapter in which Arjuna was blessed with

vishwarUpadarshana. I have some more thoughts on this cosmic vision

of arjuna and shall try to post later.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna.

 

Br. Vinayaka.