3 perspectives of waking, dream, deep sleep

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

In response to some questions about space and time in the three

states, I was stimulated to write an article trying to interpret

them as showing differing perspectives that need to be carefully

distinguished. The article is appended below.

 

Ananda

 

_______________________________

 

 

Waking

------

 

In what we call the 'waking' state, we assume that we are 'awake' to

a world made up of objects, which are each located in their various

different parts of space. It's in this world that space and time are

continued everywhere, as all objects and events are located in a

shared expanse of space and time which contains them in common.

 

Here, time is treated as an extra dimension, in which objects get

changed and events take place. Time is not here considered on its

own. It is considered as added on to the dimensions of space, so as

to account for changes and happenings. Thus added on to space, time

is an additional dimension in a space-time structure that contains

all events and happenings.

 

In this consideration, space and time are taken together, as

combined into the space-time structure of a changing universe where

different objects interact. It's thus that we think of our bodies as

awake, to an outside world in which these bodies perceive a variety

of different objects. This is the world of the waking state, where

time is conceived only in combination with structured space.

 

 

Dream

-----

 

At the actual time of a dream, the dream appears as a waking state,

with a waking person seeming to perceive an outside world of

structured space and time. It's only afterwards, when looking back

at it, that what was dreamed is understood as a dream.

 

Then it is understood that there were no objects or events or

space-time structures as appeared perceived. All these were passing

appearances, produced by dreaming mind, through a changing process

of conception that it underwent, in the course of time alone.

 

In this process, there were only mental states, producing a

succession of perceived and thought and felt appearances, which came

and went in course of time. At each moment in this process, some

appearance was produced, within the mind, by its own conception.

 

Each moment brought a mental state, replacing states that had gone

by, and getting thus replaced in turn. This process of succeeding

moments had in fact no space, nor any structure, found in it. Each

moment brought one mental state, appearing on its own.

 

Thus no two moments, nor two states, have ever been found to

co-exist. Mental process in itself has never any structure made of

co-existing points or parts. The mind itself has only process, in

the course of passing time.

 

All space in world that mind conceives is made of co-existing

points. All structure that the mind conceives is made of co-existing

parts, relating to each other from their differing locations.

 

And yet, as worlds of structured space are thus conceived, the mind

itself is only process, with no structure found in it. This is made

clear by looking back at dreaming mind. The mind has only time in

it. All space belongs to outside world, somehow conceived through

time in mind.

 

 

Deep sleep

----------

 

How can this mind, bereft of structure, make a structured world

appear? How does pure process in the mind conceive of structure in a

world that's made of various different parts?

 

As mind's attention keeps on turning from one object to another,

what is it that carries on, to know the change and to connect the

different things that have appeared?

 

What carries on is consciousness, which knows all changes that

appear. That consciousness continues knowing, underneath the

changing mind. As mind keeps turning here and there, different

objects come and go. But consciousness is just that knowing which

remains.

 

Its knowing presence is found common to all changing states of mind.

Each state of mind expresses it, as mind's attention turns towards

some object that thereby appears. And as each object is perceived,

it's taken in to consciousness, where its perception is absorbed.

 

The mind thus cycles out and in. Through its feelings and its

thoughts, the mind turns outward, to some object that's perceived.

And from each object thus perceived, the mind reflects back into

consciousness, where each perception is absorbed.

 

It's from this underlying consciousness that mind arises, to

perceive whatever object may appear. And it is back to this same

consciousness that mind returns, as the perception is absorbed. In

that absorption, mind dissolves, into its knowing ground.

 

The mind is thus a mediation, in between its inner ground of

consciousness and outward objects that appear. That knowing ground

is found alone, all by itself, in depth of sleep. There, all

appearances, of outward sense or dreaming mind, have disappeared.

 

Right there, in depth of dreamless sleep, all sense of space or time

has gone. No outward waking there appears, to any object in the

world. No mind there covers up what truly knows, with dreams that

seem deceptively to show an outward wakening.

 

Thus, though deep sleep appears at first to show a blank

unconsciousness, what's rightly found there is true knowing in

itself, expressed through all appearances that are perceived or

thought or felt by any body, sense or mind.

 

That is the world's complete reality, which may be found by waking

up to that which shines in depth of sleep, uncovered by appearances.

[Guest guest]

Anandaji - PraNAms.

 

Interesting summation. If I may, I would like to add

my perspective of the time and space concepts.

 

 

--- Ananda Wood <awood wrote:

 

 

>

> Waking

> ------

 

> In this consideration, space and time are taken

> together, as

> combined into the space-time structure of a changing

> universe where

> different objects interact. It's thus that we think

> of our bodies as

> awake, to an outside world in which these bodies

> perceive a variety

> of different objects. This is the world of the

> waking state, where

> time is conceived only in combination with

> structured space.

 

Inherent in this perception of so-called space first,

and time as extra dimension, is an inference by the

mind and with its structure, since perception of both

objects of so called 'outside' the mind and thus space

and time are inseparable from the mind with its

structure that perceives both.

 

Therefore inherent in the problem definition is the

lack of independence of 'objective definition' for

'space and time', independent of an observer's mind.

By convention, we can only make it objective by

'declaring' that the space and time are independent of

an observer in the waking state by using that it is a

common 'experience' of all or many observers. That is

how a physicist certifies an experimental data as

valid, and is independent of an observer's mind, if

the same data is recorded by many observers. But yet

the fact of the matter is without the observers mind,

the data is not validated since both space and time

are inferred by the observing mind.

 

In the dream state, the facts remains the same as you

stated. The observations by the individual subjects'

minds the space-time as well as any deduced

cause-effect relations in the dream are valid -or

objective, if many of the subjects observe the data

and only subjective if they are related only to a

given subject. The analysis, the assumptions and

inferences are exact in the dream state too, for the

subjects who do not know that there is a higher state.

 

 

Hence in the dream state - there are objective

analysis of a space-time, and thus objects and

cause-effect relations that are strictly valid. In

addition to their (they referring to subjects in the

dream) objective world, there is also a subjective

world in the dream with reference to the individual

minds of each of the subjects in the dream.

 

The analogy is exact.

 

Now when the dreamer wakes up, he has different

perspective of the dream, and he concludes that the

objective world of the dream is really subjective,

since it the one mind (waker's mind) projected into

many minds (dream subjects). Hence the objective

space-time and relations in the dream as well as the

subjective space-time relations of each subject in the

dream, all are just subjective from the point of

waker's mind.

 

The conclusion that subjects reached in the dream -

that the world is real with valid the space-time and

cause-effect relations, is dismissed outright as

subjective and not objective by the waker's mind. At

the same time he concludes that the objective world

and space-time in the waking state are real - just as

the dream subjects felt everything in the dream was

real.

 

The fact remains that both space and time as well

objects even in the waking world are not perceived or

to say more exactly - their existence is not fully

established - without the mind of the observer

present. Thus mind and its structure are also inherent

in one form or the other in establishing the objective

world of the waking world.

 

This is exactly where Vedanta zeros in - the

inconsistency in the conclusion of the reality of the

waking world while declaring unreality of the dream

world. In the language of Vedanta, both are inherently

related to the mind and its structure. By analogy one

can imagine a 'total mind' that is dreaming the waking

world consisting of many subjects with their tiny

minds, the world of objects that they perceive and the

cause-effect relations (all scientific laws) that they

conclude. That total mind is projected as the mind of

Iswara (sloka 6 of MAnDUkya). Both the waking world as

well as dream world - projection of total as well as

individual minds - is supported by consciousness that

is changeless -independent of waking and dream states.

 

 

In the deep sleep state, as you mentioned, there is a

lack of any particular world of plurality, but there

is illumination of 'world of ignorance' where presence

of objects as well as cause-effect relations are not

perceived/inferred, due to the inactivity of the mind.

Consciousness is illuminating the ignorance, as lack

of metal projections. That 'I slept very well or had

the deep experience of sleep and I have no knowledge

of any events in space-time' - that knowledge of that

experience establishes the existence of conscious

entity that is aware of the absence of events in space

and time. Since events essentially define space and

time, the space and time also are absent in deep sleep

state. The last statement in fact asserts that

space-time are not independent of objects or events

either. Space is inference drawn as a gap between

simultaneous points (objects) and time the gap between

sequential points- by an observer's mind. Mind and its

structure becomes inherent in the waking, dream and

deep sleep states. That which is independent of the

states, that pervades the states is also independent

of space-time - is the consciousness that is conscious

of all the three states, yet exists independent of the

three states. That I am - is the essence of this

analysis.

 

Hari Om

 

Sadananda

 

> Dream

[Guest guest]

Ananda Ji, Namaste

 

Thanks for wornderful analysis.

 

 

advaitin , Ananda Wood <awood wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Deep sleep

> ----------

>

>

> What carries on is consciousness, which knows all changes that

> appear. That consciousness continues knowing, underneath the

> changing mind. As mind keeps turning here and there, different

> objects come and go. But consciousness is just that knowing which

> remains.

>

 

 

Is there any spiritual enhancement during this deep sleep? We know that

during deep sleep, body gets rejuvenated and mind gets peaceful - but

does any thing happen to ones intellect during this state?

 

From my layman's point of view, it appears that any spiritual

development towards the goal, can only happen in the waking state - if

so, what is the use of deep sleep in this context?

 

Thank you

 

Sudesh

[Guest guest]

Spiritual journey starts from waking state but the real inward journey is from:

 

the fourth state - Turya.

 

Pranam!

 

Virendra

 

Sudesh Pillutla <sudeshpillutla wrote:

 

Ananda Ji, Namaste

 

Thanks for wornderful analysis.

 

advaitin , Ananda Wood <awood wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Deep sleep

> ----------

>

>

> What carries on is consciousness, which knows all changes that

> appear. That consciousness continues knowing, underneath the

> changing mind. As mind keeps turning here and there, different

> objects come and go. But consciousness is just that knowing which

> remains.

>

 

Is there any spiritual enhancement during this deep sleep? We know that

during deep sleep, body gets rejuvenated and mind gets peaceful - but

does any thing happen to ones intellect during this state?

 

From my layman's point of view, it appears that any spiritual

development towards the goal, can only happen in the waking state - if

so, what is the use of deep sleep in this context?

 

Thank you

 

Sudesh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Sudesh and Shri Virendra,

 

Shri Sudesh asks (message #37206, Sep 10):

 

" Is there any spiritual enhancement during this deep sleep? We know

that during deep sleep, body gets rejuvenated and mind gets

peaceful - but does any thing happen to ones intellect during this

state?

 

" From my layman's point of view, it appears that any spiritual

development towards the goal, can only happen in the waking state -

if so, what is the use of deep sleep in this context? "

 

As I understand the 3 state prakriya, what's essential is the

passage from one state to another.

 

In particular, the spiritual use of the dream state is to look back

at it from the waking state. Thus looking back to dreaming mind, the

unreality of mind-imagined world is uncovered. And this uncovering

reveals the reality of consciousness, as found expressed both in all

dreams conceived by mind and in each outward object and event

perceived through body's seeming sense.

 

So too, deep sleep can be used spiritually, on outward waking to the

world, by reflecting back to the unaffected peace and the non-dual

happiness that was experienced there. It's just that peace and

happiness, experienced in deep sleep, which enables us to wake

revived and refreshed into our bodily and mental activities.

 

But there is also a further sadhana concerning sleep, which is used

for a sadhaka's establishment in truth. Shri Atmananda summarized

this sadhana in his advice to 'sleep knowingly'. A sadhaka is here

advised to 'follow knowledge like a sinking star', thus holding on

to consciousness, as mind relaxes into sleep beneath all sense of

outward world and all mind's dreams made up of thought and feeling.

 

Such a knowing relaxation into deep sleep is quite different from

the forceful concentration that is used to enter a yogic state of

nirvikalpa samadhi. And here, I have a question for Shri Virendra

when he says (message #37208, Sep 11): " Spiritual journey starts

from waking state but the real inward journey is from ... the fourth

state - Turiya. " When Shri Virendra speaks thus of Turiya as a

fourth state, does he mean the yogic nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

The Mandukya Upanishad speaks quite differently. 'Turiya' of course

is a simple Sanskrit word meaning 'fourth'. The Mandukya Upanishad

also speaks of a " fourth " , for which it uses the equally simple word

'caturtha'.

 

But in the Mandukya Upanishad, the 'fourth' is clearly not a state.

Waking, dream and sleep are each of them described as a 'sthana' or

a 'state'. The waking state is described as 'jagaritha-sthana', the

dream state as 'svapna-sthana', the deep sleep state as

'sushupta-sthana'. But the fourth is described as merely 'caturtha',

without the word 'sthana' or 'state' attached to it.

 

In the Mandukya Upanishad, waking, dream and sleep are each states

that come and go. But the fourth is definitely not a state in this

way. It is that changeless, non-dual reality which does not come and

go. It is the 'fourth' in precisely the sense that it is beyond the

three states which come and go.

 

Accordingly, if Shri Virendra does use the word 'Turiya' to describe

the yogic nirvikalpa samadhi, I cannot agree with him that " the real

inward journey is from ... the fourth state - Turiya. " Any inward

journey must start from outside and it only gets real when it

reaches the inmost centre of non-duality, where it turns out that

there is no journey in reality at all.

 

For an advaita sadhaka, there is a more simple and straightforward

use of the three states. It is to think deeply of non-dual truth

just before falling asleep and after waking up, as one state gives

way to another.

 

Ananda

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Ananda Wood prabhuji & Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I've observed that there are two different perspectives with regard to

*deep sleep state* from our two senior prabhuji-s ....Sri Ananda prabhuji

says that *deep sleep* state is the state wherein *the true knowing in

itself* happens & concludes that *deep sleep* state is the *world's

complete reality*... For ready reference I here once again giving Sri

Ananda prabhuji's observation :

 

//quote//

 

Thus, though deep sleep appears at first to show a blank unconsciousness,

what's rightly found there is true knowing in itself, expressed through all

appearances that are perceived or thought or felt by any body, sense or

mind.

 

That is the world's complete reality, which may be found by waking up to

that which shines in depth of sleep, uncovered by appearances.

 

// unquote //

 

But on the contrary (I think it is only in my reading), Sri Sadananda

prabhuji implies that there is a *co-existence* of ignorance alongwith

bliss...He says the consciousness itself illumines this ignorance in

deepsleep state since there is no activity of the mind...It seems that he

is saying there exists *ignorance* which is *independent*of the mind &

that *ignorance* gets illumination from the consciousness itself...I hereby

giving Sri Sadananda prabhuji's observation :

 

// quote //

 

In the deep sleep state, as you mentioned, there is a lack of any

particular world of plurality, but there is illumination of 'world of

ignorance' where presence of objects as well as cause-effect relations are

not perceived/inferred, due to the inactivity of the mind. Consciousness is

illuminating the ignorance, as lack of metal projections. That 'I slept

very well or had the deep experience of sleep and I have no knowledge of

any events in space-time' -

 

// unquote //

 

I humbly request further elaboration/clarification on this subject from

both the prabhuji-s.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Ananda-ji.

 

I had promised to submit to the List my detailed thoughts on

avastAtraya more than a year ago. I didn't do that due to several

personal reasons which kept me away from the List. Later, when I

resumed writing recently, I found that the context had changed and

was rather hesitant to open the Pandora's box by trying to express my

disagreements with other Members.

 

Your post 37201 has now rekindled the issue. I am therefore just

simply giving below my observations which govern my understanding of

waking, dreaming and deep sleep without any reference to previous

remarks made by learned Members or the contents of the lofty Mandukya

Upanishad/Karika:

__________________

 

Waking is waking until it is proved dreaming, hallucination etc.

 

A dream is a set of objectifications that is always acknowledged by

remembering in the waking as having occurred in the past. Only when

the objectifications are remembered and acknowledged in waking do

they constitute a dream. Otherwise, they are only waking with

reference to the actual temporal context of their occurrence. It is

not possible to conceive the actual temporal context of their

occurrence (i.e. a present tense for dreaming) because no one is able

to make statements like " I am dreaming now " or " I am not awake now " .

It is always " I dreamt " or " I was dreaming " etc. – in the past tense –

after waking. Dreams have no validity if we do not awake.

 

Sleep is an experience of not experiencing anything, always

acknowledged by remembering in the waking as having occurred in the

past. Since there are no active objectifications in it, it cannot be

termed waking (like dream above) in the temporal context of its

actual occurrence. While asleep, no one says " I am sleeping now "

or " I am not awake now " . It is always " I slept " meaning " I didn't

know anything " after waking, where the absence of objectifications is

clearly remembered in waking. Sleep has no validity if we do not

awake.

 

Although we can have experiences of fainting, hallucinations,

psychedelic episodes, deep inebriation etc., Vedanta considers only

waking, dream and deep sleep because these are the three incidents

common to all and happening to us in our daily life.

 

As a rule, therefore, from paragraphs 1 to 3 above, it is derived

that dreams and sleep need waking to validate them. Without waking,

they are not validated.

 

From the language point of view, we can argue that waking also cannot

exist without dream or sleep because one can awake to wakefulness

only from a dream or deep sleep. But, that argument cannot stand

closer scrutiny if we understand wakefulness as a state of being

aware, i.e. of active objectifications. In that sense, at least

theoretically, one can be awake all the time without the incidents of

dream and deep sleep.

 

What is unraveling in front of our eyes, therefore, is a magnificent

collage of wakefulness drawn on a canvas of infiniteness that changes

in detail every micro-micro-second. In fact, the elements of the

collage are the fabric of the canvas itself and not external to it.

Mountainous, rocky objectifications of the `waking', resonating and

vibrant with life, are there interspersed with glittering `dream'

lakes of immense beauty. Amidst all the colour, brightness and

cacophony, there are ominously motionless dark patches of `deep

slumber' that do not show any details.

 

Yet, observe the shifting scenery closely – the infinite canvas

cannot be missed. Its fabric is very much visible on the rocky peaks

as well as in the sheen of the lakes and, lo! even across the

blackness of slumber. The canvas exists through every bit of the

collage and, therefore, the collage is.

 

I am wakeful to every bit of the collage. I am aware of the

collage. I am collage-Awareness. I am the Witness of the collage.

Without me, the collage cannot be. I am, therefore, the canvas of

infiniteness that is every bit of the collage. I exist through and

through infiniteness because I am very much infiniteness. I am the

Witness of the collage as well as the soul of it.

 

If that is the Truth, then I am always awake. I am awake in waking,

I am awake in dreams and I am equally awake in sleep. I am always

wakeful to myself. Wakefulness is my nature.

 

So, where is the one who thought he dreamt, snored and awoke in a

seemingly unending circle? He has never been.

________________

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

> I've observed that there are two different

> perspectives with regard to

> *deep sleep state*

 

Bhaskar - PraNAms.

 

Shree Ananda has provided the answer. I will just add

to that my understanding.

 

Realization takes place with the mind and by the mind.

Aatma need not have to realize. 'i' - the reflected

consciousness, assumes that I am this and this - these

are notions in the mind. The notions has to drop and

will drop only with the realization that I am - is

independent of any state as Anandaji just pointed out.

 

'I am' is beyond all the states is the teaching, since

any state is finite and identification with any

particular state is bondage. Since realization is by

the mind through the viveka, a discriminative analysis

of what is real and what is unreal, and waking state

is the state when the intellect is in its full

potential, the realization occurs in the waking state.

Experience of Bliss or absence of duality can be seen

in the deep sleep state, confirming that non-duality

is the way to go. But knowledge that non-duality is

the reality, requires an intellectual assertion, which

can happen when the intellect is in its full

potential.

 

That is my understanding.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Nair,

Your presentation on the three states is wonderful. Especially the last

sentence.

S.N.Sastri

 

 

On 9/11/07, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

>

> Namaste Shri Ananda-ji.

>

> I had promised to submit to the List my detailed thoughts on

> avastAtraya more than a year ago. I didn't do that due to several

> personal reasons which kept me away from the List. Later, when I

> resumed writing recently, I found that the context had changed and

> was rather hesitant to open the Pandora's box by trying to express my

> disagreements with other Members.

>

> Your post 37201 has now rekindled the issue. I am therefore just

> simply giving below my observations which govern my understanding of

> waking, dreaming and deep sleep without any reference to previous

> remarks made by learned Members or the contents of the lofty Mandukya

> Upanishad/Karika:

> __________________

>

> Waking is waking until it is proved dreaming, hallucination etc.

>

> A dream is a set of objectifications that is always acknowledged by

> remembering in the waking as having occurred in the past. Only when

> the objectifications are remembered and acknowledged in waking do

> they constitute a dream. Otherwise, they are only waking with

> reference to the actual temporal context of their occurrence. It is

> not possible to conceive the actual temporal context of their

> occurrence (i.e. a present tense for dreaming) because no one is able

> to make statements like " I am dreaming now " or " I am not awake now " .

> It is always " I dreamt " or " I was dreaming " etc. – in the past tense –

> after waking. Dreams have no validity if we do not awake.

>

> Sleep is an experience of not experiencing anything, always

> acknowledged by remembering in the waking as having occurred in the

> past. Since there are no active objectifications in it, it cannot be

> termed waking (like dream above) in the temporal context of its

> actual occurrence. While asleep, no one says " I am sleeping now "

> or " I am not awake now " . It is always " I slept " meaning " I didn't

> know anything " after waking, where the absence of objectifications is

> clearly remembered in waking. Sleep has no validity if we do not

> awake.

>

> Although we can have experiences of fainting, hallucinations,

> psychedelic episodes, deep inebriation etc., Vedanta considers only

> waking, dream and deep sleep because these are the three incidents

> common to all and happening to us in our daily life.

>

> As a rule, therefore, from paragraphs 1 to 3 above, it is derived

> that dreams and sleep need waking to validate them. Without waking,

> they are not validated.

>

> From the language point of view, we can argue that waking also cannot

> exist without dream or sleep because one can awake to wakefulness

> only from a dream or deep sleep. But, that argument cannot stand

> closer scrutiny if we understand wakefulness as a state of being

> aware, i.e. of active objectifications. In that sense, at least

> theoretically, one can be awake all the time without the incidents of

> dream and deep sleep.

>

> What is unraveling in front of our eyes, therefore, is a magnificent

> collage of wakefulness drawn on a canvas of infiniteness that changes

> in detail every micro-micro-second. In fact, the elements of the

> collage are the fabric of the canvas itself and not external to it.

> Mountainous, rocky objectifications of the `waking', resonating and

> vibrant with life, are there interspersed with glittering `dream'

> lakes of immense beauty. Amidst all the colour, brightness and

> cacophony, there are ominously motionless dark patches of `deep

> slumber' that do not show any details.

>

> Yet, observe the shifting scenery closely – the infinite canvas

> cannot be missed. Its fabric is very much visible on the rocky peaks

> as well as in the sheen of the lakes and, lo! even across the

> blackness of slumber. The canvas exists through every bit of the

> collage and, therefore, the collage is.

>

> I am wakeful to every bit of the collage. I am aware of the

> collage. I am collage-Awareness. I am the Witness of the collage.

> Without me, the collage cannot be. I am, therefore, the canvas of

> infiniteness that is every bit of the collage. I exist through and

> through infiniteness because I am very much infiniteness. I am the

> Witness of the collage as well as the soul of it.

>

> If that is the Truth, then I am always awake. I am awake in waking,

> I am awake in dreams and I am equally awake in sleep. I am always

> wakeful to myself. Wakefulness is my nature.

>

> So, where is the one who thought he dreamt, snored and awoke in a

> seemingly unending circle? He has never been.

> ________________

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I wish I could remember the exact quote but Ramana Maharshi said that

whatever appears which is not present in deep sleep, is not the

ultimate reality.

 

So, if this is believed, I would assume that by eliminating from

ultimate reality that which is not present in deep sleep, what remains

is pure unadulterated reality.

 

Richard