Waking, dream, deep sleep... and lucid dreaming.

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Nair:

 

On your exposition about the threes states, you mentioned:

 

" It is not possible to conceive the actual temporal context of their

occurrence (i.e. a present tense for dreaming) because no one is able

to make statements like " I am dreaming now " or " I am not awake now " .

It is always " I dreamt " or " I was dreaming " etc. – in the past tense –

after waking. Dreams have no validity if we do not awake. "

 

My question will be how do you explain all the accounts of what is

called " Lucid Dreaming " (some people call it Dream Yoga, etc...) where

apparently we are " awake to " the dream and even we could manipulate it...?

I have to confess that I myself am not a lucid dreamer, but some

people apparently work on this issue and I guess there might be some

honest practitioners within their range. Did you investigate this

issue yourself?

 

In relation to your previous statement, a clarification on this point

will be appreciated.

 

Yours in Dharma,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Hi Mouna-ji,

 

I was about to ask the same question (though I may conceivably have asked it

before - I have discussed this topic with Sri Nair off-line). I have myself

had lucid dreams on several occasions and, yes, you are able to say (and do

mentally) 'I am dreaming' and go on to manipulate the dream context in an

aware manner.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

<< " It is not possible to conceive the actual temporal context of their

occurrence (i.e. a present tense for dreaming) because no one is able

to make statements like " I am dreaming now " or " I am not awake now " .

It is always " I dreamt " or " I was dreaming " etc. - in the past tense -

after waking. Dreams have no validity if we do not awake. "

 

My question will be how do you explain all the accounts of what is

called " Lucid Dreaming " (some people call it Dream Yoga, etc...) where

apparently we are " awake to " the dream and even we could manipulate it...?>>

 

 

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=3

7221/stime=1189523551/nc1=4507179/nc2=3848583/nc3=4840950>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Mouna-ji and Dennis-ji.

 

I could locate the off-List discussion between Dennis-ji and me. It

concerned Dennis-ji's idea or rather wonderment that

becoming 'enlightened' in the waking state is analogous to becoming

lucid in the dreaming state. I had then commented as follows:

 

" I had also thought on those lines - like this waking might be a

dream and I may just wake up one day, just as I awake from a lucid

dream, to my real nature. Apart from the ego and all that, there is a

problem with this type of thinking. Why should we at all awake to

our real nature from waking? Can't we awake to another wakefulness

of a higher degree of clarity – a world which works on finer laws

than our own, another world of more number of dimensions than ours?

It can be our heaven too. Howsoever better that new world would be,

it can still have the potential of bondage like our current samsAra.

That would then be a repetition of the same old story ad infinitum. "

 

I have not followed up the recent advances in the understanding of

lucid dreaming. I would therefore restrict myself to my own personal

experiences and conclusions, if they are of any worth.

 

In the consideration of avastAtraya, I have given importance only to

common experience which suggests that dreams are always remembered in

waking. I cannot say lucid dreaming is a common experience.

 

Dreams do have dreams and sleep within them. The dream process is

waking with reference to the dream. A dream is, therefore, almost an

exact replica of waking.

 

If in the waking, therefore, one can entertain a question " Am I

dreaming? " , which we do and scratch our eyes when we confront

incredible situations, then that same type of thought can occur

within a dream too. One may suddenly wonder within a dream if one is

dreaming in reference to another waking reality.

 

However, we must consider to which waking does such wonderment or

realization (that I am dreaming) refer.

 

I have had my share of lucid dreams. The prominent ones are flying

dreams where I am able to manipulate the direction, speed and height

of my flying. After a time, I awake from the dream, where the waking

invariably is not into my `real' waking but to another dream.

In `actual waking' later, the flying dream is recognized as a sub-

dream (dream within a dream).

 

There is yet another variety of lucid dreams, which in the beginning

used to be rather gruesome for me. Such dreams can occur due to

motor paralysis (This is borrowed knowledge. I may be right or

wrong.) just before waking or due to an external stimulus like light

falling on partly opened eyes. In motor paralysis, I know that I am

sleeping but cannot awake. I am terrified and call out to my wife

and children to wake me up. I beat about with my hands and legs in

panic. After a time, I wake up only to find that the `reality' to

which I have woken up is entirely different (a hotel room) from the

waking situation I had visualized during the dream to which I would

eventually awake (my own bed in my house), my wife and children are

not present there and I hadn't even moved a finger when I beat about

with my limbs in the dream.

 

Dreams induced by external stimuli are also similar in nature and

occur at around the time of waking. I often go blind in such dreams

and miserably grope unable to properly see what is happening around

me. It is a gruesome experience. This happens because I am not yet

fully awake and can't therefore open my eyelids completely. Also,

there is a lot of light falling on the eyes, which acts as an

irritant, not to speak of the heaviness of slumber still lingering on

the eyelids. There is a vague understanding then that this would

pass if I am able to awake. Again, as in the former case of motor

paralysis, my idea of the waking reality to which I would awake is

entirely different from the one to which I actually awake.

 

In both the above types of dreams, which occur during day-time

(afternoon siesta) when there is a lot of light and disturbances

around, I may also often awake into another dream with reference to

which the motor-paralysis and blind dreams are sub-dreams or dreams

within a dream.

 

Besides, through the last several years, I have been able to have

certain control over these gruesome dreams. These days, I often

remember my waking ishtadevata during such dreams and call out to Her

for help chanting Her Divine Names. That helps me come fully awake

or slide into another comfortable dream.

 

In conclusion, therefore, from my own personal experience of lucid

dreams, I would say that the realization that " I am dreaming " within

a dream may have nothing to do with our `actual waking situation',

i.e. where we are sleeping. We have the realization of our dreaming

only because dreams are almost an exact replica of waking with its

own elements of sleep, dreams and waking within it and can,

therefore, logically generate a feeling of " I am dreaming " with

reference to `wakings' imagined in the dream which have nothing to do

with our `actual waking reality'.

 

Hope I have been able to convey my thoughts properly. It has been a

very arduous task to find right words due to the complexity of the

subject. Apologies for the sloppiness of language.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Mouna and Dennis,

 

In reply to your messages (#37221 and #37222, Sep 11) I'd say that

'lucid dreaming' is not quite as 'lucid' as the name pretends.

 

For a start, where it is thought that 'I am dreaming', the so-called

'I' that seems to dream is not here clearly understood. A mind

that's thought to dream is here called 'I'. And a misleading

confusion is thus made.

 

A mind that thinks it dreams calls itself 'I', thereby confusing

changing acts of thought and dream with the continued consciousness

of knowing 'I'.

 

The thought that 'I am dreaming' is in fact inherently confused, in

each of its three concepts: 'I', 'am' and 'dreaming'. As already

said, the first concept 'I' confuses a thinking and a dreaming mind

with knowing self.

 

But the second concept 'am' then also gets confused. As mind thinks

that it dreams, this present thought replaces what was dreamt

before. What's present now is the current thought of a dreaming that

has just become a memory. This memory is so recent as to be confused

with the present. The dreaming is so recent as to seem still present

now, but it is actually past. The thought 'I am dreaming' is

accordingly the present ending of a dream that has just passed, with

the mind not yet quite clear that what was dreamt is not any longer

present here.

 

Because the mind is not yet clear, the third concept 'dreaming'

stays confused: as something that is currently experienced, in the

living present. But, in truth, what's actually experienced in the

present is no dream at all. What's known in the present is directly

known, with nothing coming in between the knowing self and what is

truly known.

 

What's known directly in the present is just plain reality; while

dreaming and its dreams must in fact be remembered from the past,

through mind-created appearances of an inherently indirect and

confusedly misleading memory.

 

The word 'dream' necessarily implies a confusing and misleading

pretence, so that no dream can ever in right logic be called

'lucid'. If a dream gets to be truly 'lucid', it can no longer be a

dream at all, in strict logic.

 

To the strict logic of Advaita enquiry, the very description 'lucid

dreaming' is a contradiction in terms, like many other descriptions

that are used in the mind-developing approach of yogic or meditative

practice.

 

Ananda

[Guest guest]

Hi Ananda-ji,

 

 

 

I don't think I agree with your analysis of the so-called 'lucid dream'. I

wonder if you have had this experience yourself?

 

 

 

When I used the phrase 'I am dreaming' to express the knowledge that

signifies a lucid dream, I was using it in a purely colloquial sense, not as

an actual statement of affairs for analysis according to advaita. This is

much the same as one would continue to say ' I am walking', even though

knowing full well that 'I do nothing at all'.

 

 

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it is realized that 'this is a

dream; this entire world appearance is merely a construct of the mind.

Accordingly, the mind can knowingly structure the appearance and seeming

events'. The analogy is that, just as in lucid dream it is known that this

world-appearance is nothing but mind, similarly in enlightenment it is known

that this world-appearance is nothing but brahman.

 

 

 

I am not claiming that all of these thoughts necessarily occur in a lucid

dream (though they might). But the confusion that you describe does not seem

to be the case at all. On the contrary, there is great clarity (hence the

term 'lucid'!). Your analysis is, in any case, from the standpoint of the

waker, and not the dreamer! J

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of Ananda Wood

13 September 2007 00:27

AdvaitinGroup

Re: Waking, dream, deep sleep... and lucid dreaming.

 

 

 

Namaste Shri Mouna and Dennis,

 

In reply to your messages (#37221 and #37222, Sep 11) I'd say that

'lucid dreaming' is not quite as 'lucid' as the name pretends.

 

For a start, where it is thought that 'I am dreaming', the so-called

'I' that seems to dream is not here clearly understood. A mind

that's thought to dream is here called 'I'. And a misleading

confusion is thus made.

 

A mind that thinks it dreams calls itself 'I', thereby confusing

changing acts of thought and dream with the continued consciousness

of knowing 'I'.

 

The thought that 'I am dreaming' is in fact inherently confused, in

each of its three concepts: 'I', 'am' and 'dreaming'. As already

said, the first concept 'I' confuses a thinking and a dreaming mind

with knowing self.