Krishna and Visvarupa

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Bhaskarji,

 

Though your query was addressed to me, I did not get that email. I came to

know about your query only from Denni-ji's reply to you.

 

This doubt arose in my mind also and I considered the point carefully.( I

have given a summary of Jivanmuktiviveka chapters 1 & 2 on my website) But

in the bhAshya on Sloka 73 of ch. 18 it is said, " By your grace I have

achieved the goal of life. The idea is, there is no duty, as such, for me. "

From this it appears that Arjuna had become a jivanmukta, though it is not

explicitly stated. Of course his subsequent conduct on many occasions gives

room for doubt.

 

But as pointed out by Br. vinayaka, Sri Sankara says in his Bhashya on Sloka

12.12, " " Since the Lord is surely the greatest well-wisher of Arjuna, He

imparts instructions only about karmayoga, which involves perception of

duality and is not associated with full illumination " Then the Lord tells

Arjuna about the virtues that he has to cultivate. Why karmayoga and all

this if Arjuna had already become a jivanmukta after he saw the visvarupa in

ch.11? It may be said that the instructions are meant for all of us and

Arjuna is only a pretext. I think we have to leave it at that, because

whether Arjuna became a jivanmukta or not is not so important from our point

of view. In my first post my main purpose was to explain the significance of

visvarupadarsana. I unnecessarily mentioned about his having lost the memory

of the vision and that has led to all this controversy.

 

S.N.Sastri.

 

 

 

<<Sri Sastri prabhuji, do you think this is a potential evidence for the

difference between brahma jnAna & jIvanmukti as defined in the jIvanmukti

vivEka by Sri vidyAraNya ?? arjuna got the brahma jnAna from the Lord but

did not get the ultimate mukti, hence, due to lack of prasankhyAna he has

forgotten this jnAna subsequently & again succumbed to ahaMkAra &

mamakAra after sometime!!!>>

 

Bhaskar

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms Sri Dennis Waite prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Sri DW prabhuji :

 

I'm not sure whether or not you are being ironic here since you use a

number

of exclamation marks at the end of your sentence!

 

bhaskar :

 

No prabhuji, I am really very curious to know whether arjuna's fall back to

*normal state* from jnAnihood, in anyway, supports the theory of

jIvanmukti vivEka of Sri vidyAraNya. Here in this text Sri vidyAraNya

clearly makes the distinction between jnAni mAtra ( a brahmajnAni) and

muktA (enlightened/realized one)..

 

Sri DW prabhuji :

 

My understanding is that jIvanmukti relates to j~nAna phalam only. brahma

j~nAna is final.

 

bhaskar :

 

jIvanmukti vivEka does not treat a mere brahmajnAni/brahmajnAna that way &

say brahmajnAna is *final*...Sri vidyAraNya very keenly observes here that,

in a mere brahmajnAni, there might be the possibility that latent

tendencies (vAsanAs) can exist & can hold sway even after brahman is

perfectly & directly known (but not realized).

 

Sri DW prabhuji :

 

Once the self-ignorance has gone, there is no going back. However, if

sAdhana chatuShTaya sampatti was not fully followed, enlightenment is not

automatically accompanied by the fruits of that knowledge, namely stength

and peace of mind etc.

 

bhaskar :

 

According to jIvanmukti vivEka, there is a thin line which bifurcates the

*levels* of brahmajnAni & jIvanmukta, so as per Sri vidyAraNya, mere Atma

jnAna (kindly note it is not textual knowledge here intended, it is direct,

aparOksha, saMyakjnAna of brahman) does not elevate oneself to

jIvanmukta/stithaprajna state coz. in a jnAni mAtra there remains avidyA

lEsha & required manOnAsha.

 

As you said above, sri vidyAraNya explains even after the dawn of

brahmajnAna, the traces of avidyA still remains in him. This happens

especially when a person does not

establish himself in firm sAdhana chatuStaya. So, it is quite possible that

such brahmajnAna is samyak & aparOksha (direct) but still it is infirm!!.

In order to get the ultimate mOksha or to attain permanent brahmajnAna

which is firm, this person has to subsequently practise vAsanAkshaya and

manonAsha.

 

This classification between mukta & jnAni, I think, an unique

contribution of Sri vidyAraNya to the shankara's advaita tradition.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

Humble praNAms onceagain

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

But as pointed out by Br. vinayaka, Sri Sankara says in his Bhashya on

Sloka 12.12, " " Since the Lord is surely the greatest well-wisher of Arjuna,

He imparts instructions only about karmayoga, which involves perception of

duality and is not associated with full illumination " Then the Lord tells

Arjuna about the virtues that he has to cultivate. Why karmayoga and all

this if Arjuna had already become a jivanmukta after he saw the visvarupa

in

ch.11? It may be said that the instructions are meant for all of us and

Arjuna is only a pretext. I think we have to leave it at that, because

whether Arjuna became a jivanmukta or not is not so important from our

point of view.

 

praNAms Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks a lot for taking time to reply to my mail prabhuji...yes as you said

whether arjuna became a jIvanmukta or not is immaterial to us. Shankara

bhAshya says he became mukta after gItOpadEsha, elsewhere it is said arjuna

was fit only for *karma yOga*..and according to the mahAbhArata story,

arjuna did forget what he has been taught to him by Krishna and hence

requested the lord for repitition. Krishna's reply also in this situation

something strange, he said that when he taught Gita he did that in an

exalted state (some samAdhi like thing!!) & now he cannot repeat it with

the same degree of intensity. Then he somehow could manage to teach Arjuna

the uttara gIta. But if you dig all these episodes, somany unwanted nosy

questions prop up in our mind..As per our traditional belief, krishna is

not an ordinary person, he is parama purushOttama dEvAdi dEva, there is

absolutely no defect with him. He is the best ever teacher that one can

get. And in his teaching role, the lord has done his job with utmost

precision.

But arjuna was so oblivious to paramAtmA's divine teaching & carelessly

forgotten just few days after upadEsha!!?? Moreover, what arjuna hearing

from the *sreemukham* was brahma vidyA, yOga shAstra, upanishat, if arjuna

so absentminded, the vEda purusha who could have easily found out that, a

whip on arjuna's back would have brought him back to his senses :-))

nothing has happended like that..Moreover, it is regret to note that arjuna

even after getting gItOpadEsha from this great master himself did not get

ultimate jnAna (brahma jnAna), what he gained is only a place in the heaven

with a returnable gatepass!!! It is something really strange to note that

despite having association with vEdAnta vEdya, mOkshadAta, bhagavan himself

all through his life, arjuna, at the end, could able to get entry only in

swarga!!The mahAbhArata says that arjuna reached heaven after death but

yudhishTara & a dog physically went to svarga :-)). As we know, luxurious

temporary lodging & boarding at heaven is NOT permanent salvation :-))

 

From all this, what we can forcefully conclude is that, at the beginning,

arjuna wanted to run away from the battle field and tempted to renounce

everything due to untimely vishAda. So, it was Krishna's duty to point out

what exactly is the problem with arjuna's attitude at that particular

juncture. Krishna only pointed out the flaw on

his side and encouraged him to follow his *svadharma* & asked him to

cultivate the virtue of detachment towards the fruits of action (karma

yOga) & not *sarva karma saNyAsa. In that process, Krishna also educated

arjuna, the ideal path of detachment and renunciation, which is meant for

only those who have transcended the need for action through vivEka. Since

arjuna was not in that category, on that battle field, krishna advised him

what is most suitable & appropriate for him i.e. to follow his *kshAtra

dharma* and to that extent only arjuna got rid of his ajnAna & by realizing

his *svadharma*, he could eradicate mOha pAsha towards his relations..

 

But our bhagavadpAdAchArya saying arjuna, at the end, got the saMyak

jnAna...if we hold this literally & think that it is ultimate jnAna, then

questionable attitude of arjuna in the post jnAna period remain

unanswered...So, it is better not to search dEva moola, R^ishi mUla, nadee

mUla & more importantly, at this point of time.....pArTha (arjuna) moola

:-)) Let us leave it with that...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

namaskara bhaskarji,

 

" .So, it is better not to search dEva moola, R^ishi mUla, nadee

mUla & more importantly, at this point of time.....pArTha (arjuna) moola

:-)) Let us leave it with that... "

 

I leike this conclusion!!!!!!!

 

we can include " our mUla too'. becz if one begins to dig into the ancestral

roots one will feel like puking at the kind of lives that have been lived by

some of our predecessors in the family.

 

today when we have at least 5 sets of parents who have adopted children from

absolutely unknown origin, The boys hav ebeen given upananya and a gotra and the

girls too married of by saying the given gotra. When I started digging into the

roots of my family circles some of the memebers have blue eye balls. but mpst of

them have been living a strict iyer brahmana life style. our indian race do not

have these blue and green eye balls.

 

I dont much care for these gotra business anymore after I have seen these

situations in the family circles. May be such events have happened in the past

also.

 

so the conclusion is: to be blessed with Atma jnAna or brahmajnAna, the mula

does not matter though the persons shraddha and bhakti towards gaiing the

knowledge and living a life style of assimilated teachings of vedanta is the

requirement- an uttama adhikAri.

 

I dont know how relevant are these thots of mine in topic discussion. I just

felt like writing becz your last few lines have steered these thoughts of mine.

 

As pujya swamiji says thoughts have their own logic why they come at a given

point of time is not possible to analyse. They come , and just they come and go.

 

Bhaskarji I need some more time to answr your previous mails as all my books

have been transported to Shringeri. More over most of my books, sanskrit notes

ans class notes of the 5 years of hard work hand written notes got eaten up by

termites when i had gone away for 8 months to my sons place. some 5 cartons of

them must be. So all these termites are going to be born as future vaedantins

and sanskrit scholars.

 

I am leaving tomorrow by west coast express

so i shall answer your mail next week

 

love and prayers

Lakshmi

 

 

 

 

Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.

Play Sims Stories at Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear list members,

 

The previous post of mine was addressed to Mr. Bhaskar's personal mail. I did

not realise that this was getting posted in the list till I saw my own mail in

the list. I apologise for those personal comments of mine. I hope it does not

upset anyone personally.

 

namaskaram

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

 

 

Got a little couch potato?

Check out fun summer activities for kids.

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> But as pointed out by Br. vinayaka, Sri Sankara says in his

> Bhashya on Sloka 12.12, " " Since the Lord is surely the greatest

> well-wisher of Arjuna,He imparts instructions only about

karmayoga, which involves perception of

> duality and is not associated with full illumination " Then the

Lord tells

> Arjuna about the virtues that he has to cultivate. Why karmayoga

and all this if Arjuna had already become a jivanmukta after he saw

> visvarupa ch.11?

_________

 

This is my understanding.

Ch11 - The demonstration of vishwarupa darshana was to " enlighten "

Arjuna's mind about the Virat - about the Cosmos in reality being a

manifestation of the Supreme Being alone - naturally as we shall see

in this chapter the Vision though initially appealing quickly turned

appalling! and filled Arjuna's mind with fear, and unrest - so much

so that he actually requests the Lord to withdraw this rarest of

rarest Supreme Vision. Certainly this is not to be mistaken for

the " vision " or " self " -realization of Chaturtam, Shantam, Advaitam.

That unfoldment will come later in the 13th chapter and on...

 

Now Ch12 -

Shankaracharya states this in his commentary primarily with a view

to explain why Bhagwan Krishna seems to be placing karmayoga on the

highest pedestal and almost saying it is the most and best proximate

means of liberation - and Bhagwan Shankara says it is done as a

eulogy, as a means of praise - so as to induce the relatively unfit

Arjuna to take to karmayoga, attain chittashuddhi and fitness for

jnana and to not desert the battefield.

 

In Ch18

The Upadesha is now over.

In 18.66 Shankara's commentary exhaustively outlines why jnana and

jnana alone is the gateway to liberation. This point is being

stressed by both Bhagwan Vyasa and Bhagwan Shankara that jnana

constitutes an understanding of the scriptural statement of jiva-

brahma aikyam - nothing more needs to be done. This much only and

this much Alone is the teaching, is the meaning. In the sense, that

one then is not enjoined to do anything more after having an

understanding of the subject matter - there is nothing else that

needs to be done (such as going on meditating on tat tvam asi, etc

etc)

We find a similar idea in the Kenopanishad where the disciple at the

end of the teaching asks " Teach me now about the Upanishad " and is

told by the teacher " what I have already told you IS the upanishad,

it certainly IS itself the teaching "

So, as this Great discourse is reaching its end, it is appropriate

to point out that the fruit of the understanding of this Scripture

from the Lord Himself is that knoweldge which results in a

dissolution of the beginingless ignorance and liberation from the

notional bondage.

Perhaps Arjuna did not become steady in this knowledge - a sthita-

prajna - and could not be said to have become " realized " [- or then

again, perhaps he was -] we can perhaps leave it at that...

 

We can liken it to the end of our own experience of attending our

Guru-'s class or lecture, where, on a good day, once Guruji has

finished the class, everything for that moment is so crystal clear,

and then as soon as we were the chappals (footwear) and step out of

the room, the Wonderful DeviMaya has us under Her " benevolent " spell

again!!

 

vidhiharihara vibhedamapyakhande bata viracayya budhAnapi prakAmam

bhramayati hariharavibhedabhAvA naghatitaghatanApatIyasi mAyA

 

A thousand salutations to Maya.

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyo namah

Shyam

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " shyam_md " <shyam_md wrote:

 

> This is my understanding.

> Ch11 - The demonstration of vishwarupa darshana was to " enlighten "

> Arjuna's mind about the Virat - about the Cosmos in reality being a

> manifestation of the Supreme Being alone - naturally as we shall see

> in this chapter the Vision though initially appealing quickly turned

> appalling! and filled Arjuna's mind with fear, and unrest - so much

> so that he actually requests the Lord to withdraw this rarest of

> rarest Supreme Vision. Certainly this is not to be mistaken for

> the " vision " or " self " -realization of Chaturtam, Shantam, Advaitam.

> That unfoldment will come later in the 13th chapter and on...

 

Dear Shyam-ji,

 

This is very apt. The vision of vishwarUpa is NOT the vision of the

self. It is very clearly evident that the individuality/ignorance of

arjuna was not completely effaced. He saw **krishna** in everything,

but his individuality/ignorance was intact. It would have been a

different thing, if he would have said: **I see my SELF(Atman)

pervading the universe or virAt!**

 

Yours in Sri RAmakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

> advaitin , " shyam_md " <shyam_md@> wrote:

>

> This is very apt. The vision of vishwarUpa is NOT the vision of the

> self. It is very clearly evident that the individuality/ignorance

of

> arjuna was not completely effaced. He saw **krishna** in

everything,

> but his individuality/ignorance was intact. It would have been a

> different thing, if he would have said: **I see my SELF(Atman)

> pervading the universe or virAt!**

 

Namaste,

 

A dissenting note on this conclusion is Arjuna's dclaration in

the very first verse 11:1 - moho.ayaM vigato mama - my delusion is

gone. Some are of opinion that this was indeed the conclusion of the

original gitopadesha.

 

Verse 11:54 is even a stronger evidence that the Universal

Form (contingent on the devotion that Arjuna had shown)was the entry

pass to liberation. In verse 11:47 Krishna calls Arjuna kRRitArthaH -

attained all thy ends by this vision.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder