3 states/avasthathrya vichara

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna, namaskarams.

 

Of the three states one can understand that in deep sleep/shushupthi

the bmi gets resolved in Brahman and wakes up everyday rejenuated

fresh etc. As Shri. Sadananda wrote there is a " world of ignorance " in

that state and no knowledge of the supreme takes place. One is also

able to infer that atma is witness of all the three states often

called chaturtham/thuriam from the avasthathraya vichara in Mandukya

Upanishad.

 

The dream world projected by the jeeva can be realized to be

unreal/mithya for it resolves on the dreamer waking up. Whether it is

dream tiger or some other thing that frightens you or sounds and

persons external to the dream world etc.wakes you up, you remember the

dream to realize its mithyatvam on waking up.

 

In jagrath avastha with a world of millions of jeeva rasis active so

much in every way, Who wakes up from this jagrath dream? Ishwara?

Since you are part of the dream, the dreamt cannot wake up; it can be

resolved only in pralayam. One may close his eyes or shut his ears etc

yet the jagrat world cannot be dismissed as unreal. How do you dismiss

this world as mithya/unreal? Can you dismiss the beautiful mountains,

dancing rivers, singing birds and thousands of planes, trains, Cars

and whole of living beings criss crossing in the world. Can you

dismiss the sun, the moon, and stars etc, all god's creation that is

an order of Ishwara's dharma?

It is only through spirituality and a guru a person can realize that

he is living in bondage /samsar going through endless cycles of birth

and death, and true liberation /ananda cannot be got through the

external world of objects. The world exists, BUT FOR YOU IT IS USELESS

and in that sense IT IS UNREAL/DREAMLIKE and you transcend in to that

order of reality in Brahman. On that realization you live unaffected

by the world around you and reach the lord in time.

 

baskaran.

[Guest guest]

Of the three states one can understand that in deep sleep/shushupthi

the bmi gets resolved in Brahman and wakes up everyday rejenuated

fresh etc. As Shri. Sadananda wrote there is a " world of ignorance " in

that state and no knowledge of the supreme takes place.

 

praNAms Sri baskaran prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

IMHO, one has to be very careful while declaring there is an *ignorance* in

deep sleep too...The first & foremost question that needs to be addressed

here is, how can it be possible for the *waking* mind to infer that there

is a ignorance in deep sleep?? As we know, waking mind cannot get entry

into dream or deep sleep states...Moreover, the important thing here is

*waking mind's memory of deep sleep is not at all a real memory because it

is in our anubhava that three states are not actually happenining in any

one particular time frame...Hence, shankara says that because of absolute

unity with the pure being jIva is NOT conscious in deep sleep

state..shankara here not attributing *not knowing* ignorance to avidya

....but stresses the point that it is becasue of *unity*...Then how come

jIva wakes up from that unity?? shankara answers this question too in

sUtra bhAshya.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

Hence, shankara says that because of absolute

> unity with the pure being jIva is NOT conscious in deep sleep

> state..shankara here not attributing *not knowing* ignorance to

avidya

> ...but stresses the point that it is becasue of *unity*...Then how

come

> jIva wakes up from that unity?? shankara answers this question too

in

> sUtra bhAshya.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

 

PraNAms Sri Bhaskar-ji,

 

Thanks much for bringing this subtle point prabhuji. I have a very

limited exposure to sutra bhAshya, as far as my exposure goes

shankara's stand seems to be this alone. But rarely it is highlighted

in satsangs/lectures etc. The general practice is to simply dismiss

the deep sleep also as one of the fleeting state.

 

May be because of this reason shankara equates deep sleep with mukti

as content of these two states are one and the same?

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

May be because of this reason shankara equates deep sleep with mukti

as content of these two states are one and the same?

 

praNAms Sri Vinayaka prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Since the mind is absent in deep sleep state, with it the *individuality*

of jIva also vanishes. There is neither mind, nor the body, nor senses nor

the world in the state of dreamless sleep. Hence shruti says atra mAta,

amAta, atra pitA, apitA, atra vEda avEda etc. Since there is no duality

jIva reamins here as brahman. For that matter, the jIva infact, always

identical with brahman (trishvapi kAlEshu, says shankara). But due to its

association with upAdhi-s he appears to be different from his absolute

non-dual reality in waking & dream states. As these upAdhi-s donot exist

during deep sleep, it is said that the sould merges in brahman (embraces

brahman says shruti) during deep sleep...But in reality there is no time

when jIva is not one with brahman , he is always one with brahman or it is

always ONE & ONLY brahman...

 

But from the empirical stand point, this jIva even though merges with

brahman everyday in deep sleep, is not realized to be such...But when

brahman is realized in the waking state as one's own self, the

misidentification of the self with the non-self does not occur anymore and

the jIva is said to be liberated forever :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

> Since the mind is absent in deep sleep state, with it the

*individuality* of jIva also vanishes. There is neither mind, nor the

body, nor senses nor the world in the state of dreamless sleep. Hence

shruti says atra mAta, amAta, atra pitA, apitA, atra vEda avEda etc.

Since there is no duality jIva reamins here as brahman. For that

matter, the jIva infact, always identical with brahman (trishvapi

kAlEshu, says shankara). But due to its association with upAdhi-s he

appears to be different from his absolute non-dual reality in waking &

dream states. As these upAdhi-s donot exist during deep sleep, it is

said that the soul merges in brahman (embraces brahman says shruti)

during deep sleep...

 

NamaskaaraH Sri bhaskar Mahasaya,

 

Iam a novice to this group as far as writing messages is concerned. To

introduce myself, Iam Sampath from Hyderabad. With high respect to you

and all the Acharyas of Advaita Sampradaya, I request you to throw

some light on few contentions I have regarding the Concept of Deep Sleep.

 

You wrote,

 

But due to its association with upAdhi-s he appears to be

differentfrom his absolute non-dual reality in waking & dream states.

Asthese upAdhi-s donot exist during deep sleep,..

 

[unquote]

 

Please tell me how do you treat these words of Acharya in his Brahma

Sutra Bhashya,

 

" ..sa EvAyamupAdhiH svApaprabOdhayOH bIjAnkura nyAyENa.. "

......Each set of adjuncts continues through the states of sleep as

well as of waking; in the former it is like a seed, in the latter like

the fully developed plant. -- Br. Sutra.3.2.9.Sankara Bhashya.

 

And in his Mandukya Upanishad Bhashya, SrI Sankara says,

 

" Deep sleep is a state of ease and repose. The friction caused by the

subject-object relationship is absent. All effort disappears. Hence a

person in deep sleep experiences bliss, in the sense that one who is

free from effort is said to be happy. This bliss is quite different

from that of Brahman. " -- Mandukya Upanishad.5.Sankara Bhashya.

 

The possibility for the bliss in Deep Sleep to be quite different from

that of Brahman is that the one who experiences the bliss, is not

bliss itself ! And such a bliss is not absolute.

 

In Srii Sankara's words,

" manasO viSaya viSayyAkAraspandanAyAsaduHkhAbhAvAt AnandamayaH

AnandaprAyaH nAnanda eva anAtyantikatvAt. "

 

Also kindly throw some light on how you interpret the 7th Verse from

Mandukya wherein the Turiya is said to be,

" The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three

states " (ekAtma pratyayasAram),

 

where as in the 5th Verse, prAjna is described as,

" ..sushhuptasthAna ekIbhUtaH prajnaanaghana.. "

Prajna, whose sphere is deep sleep, in whom all experiences become

unified, who is, {verily, a mass of consciousness}, who is full of

bliss and experiences bliss..

 

Here, by defining Turiya as the " Essence " of the Consciousness which

manifests itself in avasthA traya, even the susshupti avasthA is made

subordinate to Turiya. I believe, SrI Sankara when he said that the

prAjna himself is not bliss, for which reason the bliss of deep sleep

is not the same as that of Brahman, must have meant that the " content "

of both deep sleep and Turiya isn't the same.

 

My another contention is that, in Deep Sleep we say that the person is

not conscious of the external world. And this is because of the unity

with the Brahman. But what I want to say here is that, the deep sleep

itself is not liberation because, the person(used for the sake of

convenience) is NOT CONSCIOUS even of his union with the Brahman. Had

he been Conscious of his union, he would have been liberated which is

exactly what happens in Realization. Now my question is, what is

hindering him from becoming Conscious of his union? It must be the

avidya in the seed form bearing the Karmas. And this avidya is again

responsible for the " same " jIva to come back to the waking state.

 

So, in Deep Sleep, avidya hinders the jIva from becoming Conscious of

his union with Brahman.

 

 

You wrote:

But when brahman is realized in the waking state as one's own self,

the misidentification of the self with the non-self does not occur

anymore and the jIva is said to be liberated forever :-))

 

>> Mahasaya,

IMHO either we can say that " Brahman cannot be realized

in the waking state " or that, " where Brahman is realized, that cannot

be the waking state. " It must be some state(for our convenience) like

that of deep sleep where the union with Brahman is established and the

jIva is Conscious of such union. May be for that purpose it is called

as Samadhi by Yogis signifying the Turiya stithi.

 

 

You wrote:

The first & foremost question that needs to be addressed

here is, how can it be possible for the *waking* mind to infer that

there is a ignorance in deep sleep?? As we know, waking mind cannot

get entry into dream or deep sleep states..

 

>> Mahasaya,

IMHO we can infer it from the " effects " . In the waking or dream state

that follows the deep sleep state, one again takes multiplicity to be

real. Whereas, after attaining the knowledge of Brahman one never

takes multiplicity to be real.

 

Nonetheless, in Brihadaranyaka bhashya, SrI Sankara himself says that

the avidyA which creates multiplicity is at rest in sushhupti. Does it

mean, it takes rest ceasing from creating multiplicity or that it is

altogether obliterated?

 

I request you to kindly solve these riddles.

 

!! Sri Adi SankarArpanamastu !!

[Guest guest]

NamaskaaraH Sri bhaskar Mahasaya,

 

Iam a novice to this group as far as writing messages is concerned. To

introduce myself, Iam Sampath from Hyderabad. With high respect to you

and all the Acharyas of Advaita Sampradaya, I request you to throw

some light on few contentions I have regarding the Concept of Deep Sleep.

 

Humble praNAms Sri Sampath prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

After 3 days of leave, I am at my office desk today :-)) First, my hearty

welcome to this august forum prabhuji. Secondly, thanks a lot for quoting

shankara bhagavatpAda in support of your stand...

 

It is really amazing to see this mail has already attracted somany replies

from all corners of the list & eminent scholars of our list Sri Sastri

prabhuji, Sri Sada prabhuji, Sri Rishi prabhuji, Sri Vinayaka prabhuji have

already contributed there view points ..(I've just started reading those

one by one ) Prabhuji, it is indeed gives me a great pleasure in discussing

shankara bhAshya & its siddhAnta with you. You've given some very

important quotes wherein Shankara seems to endorse the view that there is

some avidyA in sushupti too!!! Thanks a lot for those very valid

quotes...I request you to grant me sometime to look into these references

in detail at home..(I am writing this mail from my office desk top :-)).

But before digging this avasthAtraya prakriya anything further , I think ,

we have to keep in mind that the imputation of the states of consciousness

to Atman in shruti-s like vishva, taijasa, prAjnA etc. is only a device to

drive home the point that Atman is not limited to any one particular

state..By calling the Atman with various names, shruti is conveying the

Adhidaivik aspects in order to negate his limited nature. But

subsequently, shruti itself, makes its intention clear that Atman is

neither of inward nor outward consciousness, nor even mass of consciousness

(prajnAna ghana), neither consciousness nor unconsciousness etc. etc. From

this it is clear that shruti negates all contact of states of consciousness

and declares that Atman is free from all specific features & invariably

transcends all the three states.

 

I've already read the lead post of yours & couple of your replies to Sri

Vinayaka prabhuji, it seems you are in agreement that there is an *union*

in sushupti but this union, you are telling, does not mean that itself an

absolute enlightened state and you have concluded that there is some

difference between the status of prAjna & turIya & prAjnA has an avidyA in

the seed form.... am I right in understanding your stand prabhuji?? If

your answer is yes, then I dont have much difference with you, except the

issue with regard to the existence of *kAraNAvidyA* or bIja rUpa avidyA or

mUlAvidyA in deep sleep state :-))

 

Further, as Sri Rishi prabhuji rightly pointed out, there are two different

view points in analysing this deep sleep state...If we are partial to the

waking state and from that stand point if we view the deep sleep state we,

no doubt, regard sleep as a dark cloud of ignorance in which we are daily

lost ourselves!! But once, we take stand in the philosophic position or

from the standpoint of witness (sAkshi) of the three states, this ignorance

filled deep sleep state seems to have entirely different look which we can

ill afford to ignore....It is in our anubhava that the deep sleep state

consists of neither waking nor dream world nor the network of time & space

in which it is enmeshed...

 

Anyway, before going into the details, I would like to know from your

goodself, in which state can we have the really real realization of Atman,

if avidyA pervades all the three states??

 

To night, I am going to have a detailed look at bhAshya & upanishad vAkya-s

that you have quoted in your mail prabhuji and then I shall try to share my

understanding with you.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> NamaskaaraH Sri bhaskar Mahasaya,

>

> Iam a novice to this group as far as writing messages is concerned. To

> introduce myself, Iam Sampath from Hyderabad. With high respect to you

> and all the Acharyas of Advaita Sampradaya, I request you to throw

> some light on few contentions I have regarding the Concept of Deep

Sleep.

>

> Humble praNAms Sri Sampath prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> After 3 days of leave, I am at my office desk today :-)) First, my

hearty

> welcome to this august forum prabhuji. Secondly, thanks a lot for

quoting

> shankara bhagavatpAda in support of your stand...

>

> It is really amazing to see this mail has already attracted somany

replies

> from all corners of the list & eminent scholars of our list Sri Sastri

> prabhuji, Sri Sada prabhuji, Sri Rishi prabhuji, Sri Vinayaka

prabhuji have

> already contributed there view points ..(I've just started reading those

> one by one ) Prabhuji, it is indeed gives me a great pleasure in

discussing

> shankara bhAshya & its siddhAnta with you. You've given some very

> important quotes wherein Shankara seems to endorse the view that

there is

> some avidyA in sushupti too!!! Thanks a lot for those very valid

> quotes...I request you to grant me sometime to look into these

references

> in detail at home..(I am writing this mail from my office desk top :-)).

> But before digging this avasthAtraya prakriya anything further , I

think ,

> we have to keep in mind that the imputation of the states of

consciousness

> to Atman in shruti-s like vishva, taijasa, prAjnA etc. is only a

device to

> drive home the point that Atman is not limited to any one particular

> state..By calling the Atman with various names, shruti is conveying the

> Adhidaivik aspects in order to negate his limited nature. But

> subsequently, shruti itself, makes its intention clear that Atman is

> neither of inward nor outward consciousness, nor even mass of

consciousness

> (prajnAna ghana), neither consciousness nor unconsciousness etc.

etc. From

> this it is clear that shruti negates all contact of states of

consciousness

> and declares that Atman is free from all specific features & invariably

> transcends all the three states.

>

> I've already read the lead post of yours & couple of your replies to Sri

> Vinayaka prabhuji, it seems you are in agreement that there is an

*union*

> in sushupti but this union, you are telling, does not mean that

itself an

> absolute enlightened state and you have concluded that there is some

> difference between the status of prAjna & turIya & prAjnA has an

avidyA in

> the seed form.... am I right in understanding your stand prabhuji?? If

> your answer is yes, then I dont have much difference with you,

except the

> issue with regard to the existence of *kAraNAvidyA* or bIja rUpa

avidyA or

> mUlAvidyA in deep sleep state :-))

>

> Further, as Sri Rishi prabhuji rightly pointed out, there are two

different

> view points in analysing this deep sleep state...If we are partial

to the

> waking state and from that stand point if we view the deep sleep

state we,

> no doubt, regard sleep as a dark cloud of ignorance in which we are

daily

> lost ourselves!! But once, we take stand in the philosophic position or

> from the standpoint of witness (sAkshi) of the three states, this

ignorance

> filled deep sleep state seems to have entirely different look which

we can

> ill afford to ignore....It is in our anubhava that the deep sleep state

> consists of neither waking nor dream world nor the network of time &

space

> in which it is enmeshed...

>

> Anyway, before going into the details, I would like to know from your

> goodself, in which state can we have the really real realization of

Atman,

> if avidyA pervades all the three states??

>

> To night, I am going to have a detailed look at bhAshya & upanishad

vAkya-s

> that you have quoted in your mail prabhuji and then I shall try to

share my

> understanding with you.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

 

===========================================

===========================================

 

Sri Bhaskar mahASaya, sa-prem namaste,

 

Its really great hearing from you. With great pleasure I shall clarify

my stand according to the points you have raised.

 

You wrote:

it seems you are in agreement that there is an *union*

in sushupti but this union, you are telling, does not mean that itself

an absolute enlightened state and you have concluded that there is

some difference between the status of prAjna & turIya & prAjnA has an

avidyA in the seed form.... am I right in understanding your stand

prabhuji?? If your answer is yes, then I dont have much difference

with you,

[uNQUOTE]

 

My reply: A big " YES " . :-))

 

======================

You wrote:

except the issue with regard to the existence of *kAraNAvidyA* or

bIja rUpa avidyA or mUlAvidyA in deep sleep state :-))

[uNQUOTE]

 

My reply: mahASaya, IMHO, I believe that there exists a seed form of

avidyA which " PERMITS " the absolute union with Brahman.

 

And my another contention is, this absolute union with Brahman is only

an " INFERRED " fact. Since there is no other " positive entity " in that

state for Brahman to identify itself with, it resides as it were, in

its true Self.

 

But, had there been any second thing, it would have surely

identified(tAdAtmya) itself with the second thing because apavAda was

never done!

 

So, IMHO, suSupti is a play of avidyA. Because of the tiresomeness of

roaming in waking and dreaming states, the hawk " folds " its

wings(stops fluttering) signifying that the vikshepa shakti is

withdrawn. And thus it goes to its own nest. Its wings are only folded

but not cut off altogether. So, there is a " chance " that it will

surely start fluttering its wings after sometime. This " chance " is not

a positive entity. It is but a fact. The bird is conscious of this

fact that it will go into sky after it gets enough strength again. It

entered the nest firmly knowing that its primary goal is sky itself.

Still, such an idea that its goal is sky itself, does not hinder it

from staying deep inside in its own nest for the time being.

 

So my point is,

 

Because of the with drawl of vikshepa Sakti alone, the union with

Brahman has occurred.

Otherwise one cannot show any valid reason for such a union to occur!!

So deep sleep state is operated by avidyA.

=====================

You wrote:

Anyway, before going into the details, I would like to know from your

goodself, in which state can we have the really real realization of

Atman, if avidyA pervades all the three states??

[uNQUOTE]

 

My reply: mahASaya, that is why I suppose mANDukya has stated the

" FOURTH " (turiya). It cannot be called as a " State " because it is not

conditioned. So, let us simply call it as the Fourth.

And as we know, " ekam sat vipraH bahudA vadanti " ,

Yogis might have named the turiya as samAdhi where the jIva

consciously loses his jIvahood(but not due to " being carried away by

the unreal " *) not to come back to it forever proving that avidyA is

sa-anta(with an End)!!

 

*(Reference: Chandogya Upanishad.8.3.2. " All these ignorant

creatures, though they go everyday during sleep to the world that is

brahman itself do not have the thought " I have now attained this state

of brahman " because they are **carried away by the unreal** as

described above, being driven away from their real nature by such

evils as avidyA and the like " .).

 

Thanking you once again,

 

Yours Sampath.

 

!! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !!