the three states

[Guest guest]

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> So, the jIva loses his jIvahood for time being only because avidyA has

> granted him the permission to do so. Again when the time limit is

> reached, avidyA comes into action to bring back the jIva from his union

> with Brahman.

>

> praNAms Sri Sampath prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> This is, I must admit prabhuji, something strange & interesting

> observation which I am hearing first time...I know, you have been

quoting

> shankara bhAshya for the support of your statements...May I request

you to

> provide *bhAshya reference* for your above observation also

> prabhuji...According to the above para ( and in your latest mail to me

> also) you are saying *avidyA*, in sushupti, is granting the

permission to

> jiVa to unite with brahman!! So, avidyA holds sway even in sushupti

& has

> the special power to sanction the union to jIva...So, avidyA has the

> existence in all the three states, in sushupti with the power of its

> AvaraNa shakti it is allowing jIva to embrace the brahman!! right

> prabhuji?? if yes, kindly tell me are these avasthA-s not a pariNAma of

> this avidyA?? Are these avasthA-s standing apart from this avidyA?? If

> this avidyA exists invariably in all the three states, what is wrong in

> saying this avidyA is *as real as* brahman?? Is the turIya what you are

> referring is something specially designed exalted state like

*nirvikalpa

> samAdhi*?? Though you have not specifically mentioned *turIya is

nirvikalpa

> samAdhi*, prabhuji, I think I've valid references from your recent

mails to

> infer that you are advocating the 4th state called turIya as something

> strange state which is exclusive of our normal three avasthA-s...Kindly

> bear with my ignorance & clarify these doubts prabhuji.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

 

=======================================

praNAmaH SrI Bhaskar mahASaya,

 

You wrote:

So, avidyA has the existence in all the three states, in sushupti with

the power of its AvaraNa shakti it is allowing jIva to embrace the

brahman!!

[uNQUOTE]

 

My reply: mahASaya, this allowance is only a figurative use. When the

vikshepa shakti is withdrawn, that itself forms a condition where

there is no second thing for Brahman to identify itself with. Thus it

rests in its own Self.

 

Surely for the purpose of explanation I have spoken of avidyA as being

a watch guard to allow or not allow Brahman to reside in his own true

Self. But all that happens is a " natural process " which we name it as

suSupti as I have already wrote in some previous post addressing the

same issue.

 

====================

 

You wrote: So, avidyA holds sway even in sushupti & has

the special power to sanction the union to jIva

 

My Reply: mahASaya, I have really not said that it has a special

power. It is only the with drawl of its power which causes such union.

This is all that I have said. And with due respect to Acharya, I have

to quote from the Chandogya Upanishad.8.3.2:

 

" But those of his people, whether they are alive or dead and whatever

else one desires but does not get, all that one finds by going there

(into the Atman, the Akasa in the heart); for here, indeed, are those

true desires of his covered by the untrue. Just as, though people who

do not know the field walk again and again over the treasure of gold

hidden underground but do not find it, even so all these creatures

here, though they go daily into the Brahman-world, yet do not find it,

for they are carried away by the untrue. "

 

And also from, Brihadaranyaka,

4.3.23. " And when it appears that in deep sleep it does not see, yet

it is seeing though it does not see; for there is no cessation of

the vision of the seer, because the seer is imperishable. **There is

then, however, no second thing separate from the seer that it could

see.**

 

## I beg you to read all the discussions we had on this issue in this

short span of time. This is my most humble request. Kindly read all

the references that I have previously quoted, mahASaya.

=============================

 

You Wrote:

if yes, kindly tell me are these avasthA-s not a pariNAma of

this avidyA?? Are these avasthA-s standing apart from this avidyA??

[uNQUOTE]

 

My Reply: Yes they are the pariNAma of avidyA. That's why I said that

it is a natural process where an effect similar to that obtained after

apavAda occurs. The reason as said in Brihadaranyaka,

 

" The hawk, " TIRED OF " roaming in the waking and dreaming states " ,

shows that the Tiresomeness has caused the with drawl of false

projection. But the cause of this projection still exists in a seed

form which is not opposed to the sa-svarUpa of Brahman.

 

And my another contention was, Had deep sleep state been permanent,

there is absolutely no need to realize. But it is not permanent as the

potential avidyA projects again the unreality making Brahman to get

deluded again. If there was no avidyA in potential form, deep sleep

state itself should grant liberation.

=======================

 

You Wrote:

this avidyA exists invariably in all the three states, what is wrong

in saying this avidyA is *as real as* brahman??

 

My Reply:

IMHO, that which stands in all the three states invariably and also

stands when there is an end to all the three states, signifying the

Fourth, which means, " Beyond the three " , is Brahman, that alone is

" sat " . avidyA exists only in three states and only as three states.

 

=========================

You Wrote:

Is the turIya what you are referring is something specially designed

exalted state like *nirvikalpa samAdhi*??

 

My Reply:

mahASaya, IMHO, if there is something like nirvikalpa samadhi, no one

can really design it. It must be an experience of the sages of yore.

As I hope we are not pUrvapakshins to say that the words are eternal.

So the truth is same even if its interpreted using different words. If

a person has gone into a state called samAdhi and became a sage

exhibiting all the features as that of a upanishadic sage, what should

prevent us from accepting it as the realization of turIya?

 

With due respect to all Acharyas, Sruti and everyone here, I humbly

assert that there was a Self-Realization even before Adi Sankara and

the like were born.

===============================

 

You Wrote:

I think I've valid references from your recent mails to infer that you

are advocating the 4th state called turIya as something strange state

which is exclusive of our normal three avasthA-s...Kindly bear with my

ignorance & clarify these doubts prabhuji.

 

My Reply:

mahASaya, IMHO, turIya iss NOT AT ALL A STATE. It can be a state to

the ajNAni who observes a sage experience it. This idea of attributing

" State " to everything we see itself denotes that we are conditioned by

avidyA. So, I feel, turIyA is not a state and it is the true nature of

Brahman beyond all the three states which can only be reached by a

sAdhaka through apavAda leading to the Conscious identity with his own

true Self.

 

When we say, Atma sAkshAtkAra itself is not a state, I find no reason

in saying that, tt occurs in waking or dreaming state etc.

 

If he loses jIva hood and merges into Brahman during Realization where

his karmAS etc are all burned to ashes, how can he still be in waking

state? What supports the wakefulness? He must surely become

unconscious of his body, mind and the like. That is practically seen

in Samadhi. Pardon me if this view is unacceptable to you. And I

sincerely request all the elders with high respect to them that if

samAdhi is not favored by our reasoning, or by our so called writings

of the AchAryas, we shall stop discussing about it because we would be

wasting our time in refuting the experience of the Self-realized souls

which is neither useful to us nor harmful to those great yogIs.

 

Nevertheless, as I have already stated, I am a novice and want to

learn the truth from satsanga.

 

I request you to Pardon me if I have done any mistake. And please

consider me as an ignorant child and teach me the truth.

 

!! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !

 

 

P.S. mahASaya, if you kindly consider, I have one basic question. I

would be grateful to you if you take some time to answer it. On this

question ALONE, all my contentions would probably rest! Please kindly

consider it with patience and forgiveness.

 

## What is the cause for the " UNION with Brahman " to occur in Deep

Sleep? ##

[Guest guest]

Namaste all followers of this thread,

 

This matter of the blissfull nature of deep sleep should be examined.

Personally speaking I sleep well for the most part and I feel relaxed

and rested on waking which is nice but blissfull seems to be overstating

the case. How can a state which has no objective content be blissful

when the ordinary concept of bliss refers to a subjective state?

Madathilji is a happy devotee who gets by without deep sleep. Are we to

say to depressives that they ought to come off medication because they

have regular experience of blissfull states? Is clarification available

on this issue?

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

praNAms Nair prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

If you could permit me to poke my nose in this discussion, I would like to

share my thoughts on some of your observations. This time I am finding

more agreements with your observation, thus this attempt :-))

 

MN prabhuji :

 

According to him, the happiness of sleep is purely due

to relaxation and rest (biological and physical). Relaxation, rest

and the awareness of passage of time constitute the sleep

experience. The question is whether this view can be accepted or not.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, definitely acceptable prabhuji... why not ?? Since it is our chronic

problem that we are identifying ourselves with body, it is quity acceptable

that this body gets tired by the end of the day due to hectics during the

day, gets lethargic, drowsy , gets big big yawns, wants a sound sleep on a

comfortable bed at night:-))..Hence, nidrA from loukika/ vyavahAric drushti

is tamaH pradhAna..it is nothing but a shArIrik vikAra which we experience

everyday..Krishna also says the same thing in gIta that pramAdAlasya

nidrAbhiH tanni bhadnAti bhArata..so your friend is very much right in

saying so :-))

 

MN prabhuji :

 

Well, as I see it, there is no question of any union for the jiVa

with Brahman. It is never other than Brahman whether the state it is

in be waking, dream or sleep. This is the absolute point of view.

 

bhaskar :

 

How beautiful prabhuji...you are absolutely right :-))

 

MN prabhuji :

 

The relative (phenomenal) point of view of a jIvA frog-leaping from

one state to another and uniting with Brahman in deep sleep is an

apparence on the absolute and, if ajAtavAda is accepted, it is never

there.

 

bhaskar :

 

again, it is very much true prabhuji..

 

MN prabhuji :

 

AvastAtraya and the koSAs are just models granted to us to

appreciate the Absolute behind the apparence.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, it is kEvala adhyArOpita on nirvikAri, nirvishEsha Atman :-))

 

MN prabhuji :

 

We seem to be getting fixated with the detials of the models and

institutionalizing them at

the expense of the Ultimate.

 

bhaskar :

 

No actually these are all the methodologies adopted by shruti mAta itself

to teach us brahma jnAna & drive us to the ultimate reality of Atmaikatva.

 

MN prabhuji :

 

There is therefore no reason to single out sleep happiness for a special

treatment as something especially

coming out of Brahman.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, for your kind information, we, here in this list, are not

singling out deep sleep state & upholding its supremacy in avasthAtraya

prakriya. shruti mAta (example bruhadAraNyaka & chAndOgya) herself doing

it & our bhagavatpAdAchArya, too in his sUtra bhAshya & mAndUkya bhAshya &

various other places...Interestingly both shruti & bhagavatpAda have gone

to the extent of comparing this deep sleep state with that of

mOksha:-))..so, IMHO, being the sanAtana vaidhika dharma followers, it is

mandatory for us to accept shruti & Acharya's verdicts.

 

MN prabhuji :

 

The one who is ignorant of his own nature has to necessarily remove

his ignorance in the waking. Once that begins to happen, the

knowledge gained will slowly percolate into dreaming and eventually

into the darkness of deep sleep. With complete realization, he is

the self-shining Sun of Knowledge always illuminating his own nature

of total wakefulness. Nothing in this understanding has ever united

or merged with anything. Nothing has changed. The Sun has always

been shining and illuminating itself.

 

bhaskar :

 

true prabhuji, whole heartedly accepted :-))

 

MN prabhuji :

 

This is the way I reconcile with my European friend. I don't find his views

about sleep unacceptable.

 

bhaskar :

 

I think both your friend & shruti/AchAryOpadEsha are true from two

different perspectives....As you know, in our vEda-s, there is a provision

for your friend's materialistic view also :-))

 

PraNAms.

Madathil Nair

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Michaelji :

 

Welcome back ! it is nice to see you penning your thoughts on the

three states. We did miss you .

 

There is no difference between a self realized bhakta and a self

realized jnani ! In my humble opinion , both are blissfully happy in

all the three states of Waking , dream and deep sleep - because

theuy are always prasanna chitta atma ( blissfully happy souls) !

But a depressed person is depressed because his depression is the

result of dehatma buddhi ? ANTI DEPRESSENTS ARE ONLY SHORT TERN

REMEDIES - any good therapist will try to find out the root cause of

depression ruling what both medical and emotional causes! in

fact ,chronically depressed persons are even advised not to

take 'sleeping pills' for fear of their committing suicide by taking

an 'overdose' .... We all know about Marilyn monroe , Kurt Cobain,

Elvis Presley etc etc ....

 

But a jnani is a differnt cup of tea ! Did shri Ramana need anti

depressents ? He had Cancer - he never said " i am in pain " - he

always said " it " Body was just a 'it' to him! It was not his body

at all ! SUCH WAS HIS EXALTED ATMA SWARUPA!

 

Pleae read What Bhagwan Ramana maharishi says

 

" The effortless samadhi is the true one and the perfect state. It is

permanent. When the real, effortless, permanent, happy nature is

realised it will be found to be not inconsistent with the ordinary

activities of life. "

 

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FLEETING SAMADHIS FROM PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS!

SMILE :-)

 

Yes, bhagwan Ramana would be walking , eating, sleeping,

discoursing etc like all of us but was he like all of us! For a

realized sage , there is no deep sleep where he is blisfully

unconscious ! He is consciously blissful in deep sleep as well as in

waking state! HE WAS 'TURIYA' TEETHA!

 

Love and regards and thanx for raising such lovely questions

 

 

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> Namaste all followers of this thread,

>

> This matter of the blissfull nature of deep sleep should be

examined.

> Personally speaking I sleep well for the most part and I feel

relaxed

> and rested on waking which is nice but blissfull seems to be

overstating

> the case. How can a state which has no objective content be

blissful

> when the ordinary concept of bliss refers to a subjective state?

> Madathilji is a happy devotee who gets by without deep sleep. Are

we to

> say to depressives that they ought to come off medication because

they

> have regular experience of blissfull states? Is clarification

available

> on this issue?

>

> Best Wishes,

> Michael.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> Namaste all followers of this thread,

>

> This matter of the blissfull nature of deep sleep should be

examined.

> Personally speaking I sleep well for the most part and I feel

relaxed

> and rested on waking which is nice but blissfull seems to be

overstating

> the case. How can a state which has no objective content be

blissful

> when the ordinary concept of bliss refers to a subjective state?

> Madathilji is a happy devotee who gets by without deep sleep. Are

we to

> say to depressives that they ought to come off medication because

they

> have regular experience of blissfull states? Is clarification

available

> on this issue?

>

> Best Wishes,

> Michael.

>

[Guest guest]

Michael-ji!

 

I didn't say I am not getting deep sleep. The doc thinks so. That

is the fun of it. I am not much bothered about the situation I am

in. He is.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________

 

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> This matter of the blissfull nature of deep sleep should be

examined.

> Personally speaking I sleep well for the most part and I feel

relaxed

> and rested on waking which is nice but blissfull seems to be

overstating

> the case. How can a state which has no objective content be

blissful

> when the ordinary concept of bliss refers to a subjective state?

> Madathilji is a happy devotee who gets by without deep sleep. Are

we to

> say to depressives that they ought to come off medication because

they

> have regular experience of blissfull states? Is clarification

available

> on this issue?

[Guest guest]

Dear Nair-ji

I have still to answer your prior poser on eka-rupa bhakti ..

but since this is a interesting ongoing topic I thought of penning my

thoughts..time-permitting will try to get back to that soon...

 

[Disclaimer - I happen to be a physician, a sleep " expert " at that - and as an

aside would strongly urge you to get your sleep apnea treated - i may please be

excused for this transgression into an off-topic personal advise!]

 

The realm of science and the realm of spirituality can never me married into a

single physiological construct. It will NEVER work. Science rightfully demands

objectivity, spirituality rightfully requires subjectivity. They are each

wonderful in their own domains, each work for the betterment of mankind in their

own ways.

 

Once you try to explain spiritual concepts in light of what is scientifically

recognized with our limited tools of objectivite scientific observations, you

are going to be in a infintitely disturbing maze.

 

I shall now get to your friend's concept.

Bliss of sleep is because of rest to the body and relaxation to the brain.

 

Basic question?

Bliss to whom?

to the brain? can the barin feel any bliss? to the body? " who " is the body?

Yes - biologically we can say bliss is the release of " pleasure " chemicals -

we can say neurotransmitters, we can even do functional MRI studies and PET

scans and identify areas in the brain limbic system that light up when the

person sees something pleasurable like the amygdala, hippocampus, septum

pellucidum, etc etc - we can put electrodes in the brain and measure release of

neurotransmitters, etc.

The basic question is " who feels the pleasure? "

Does the septum pellucidum - which is a bunch of cells with projections which

secrete a chemical - a protein, feel " pleasure "

 

The rational answer would be " no "

OK. Then who feels bliss?

 

Science has no answer.

It may say the " I-sense " of the person.

Where/What is this I-sense?

Does Gray's textbook of human anatomy, Guyton's textbook of human physiology,

or Ganong's textbook of human biochemistry - the foundation bibles of medicine

mention anywhere anything about a i-sense? - No. Science simply lets the

question be.

 

A minority of interested scientists may dabble in this " esoteric " subject and

try to say that the i-sense is in a complex array of lets say a hundred thousand

neurons in the brain and their synaptic interconnections.

 

Let us say 50 years from now we are able to make a isolated nerve preparation

of this neuronal matrix - will it by itself have a i-sense? Take the entire

brain and keep it alive in a noursihing container and keep a intact blood supply

and oxygen supply going - will this brain when you stimulate its so-called

pleasure centers " feel " bliss?

Of course not.

 

But wait a minute the scientist will say - since you took that brain out -

that person whose brain it was is dead can no longer feel bliss - so it proves

our contention that the bliss is in the brain - not so - will say the spiritual

person - only underscoring again why the two operate in non-overlapping domains.

 

 

So again, well then, who feels bliss?

OK - another scientist may say - let us say the mind feels bliss.

 

Where is the mind? No scientific answer. It is likely " in " the brain, or a

" function of " the brain - after all a brain-dead person cannot have a mind.

 

So does a mind which no one knows what is, feel a sense of satisfaction at the

release of a chemical secreted by the brain? Logically absurd.

 

Which brings us to the crux? who am I? or who is a person?

At precisely this frontier is where science stops and spirituality begins.

 

And again, this is not to belittle science or glorify spirituality.

Science is wonderful in its own right, is of great benefit in its own domain.

If I have diabetes, I would prefer to get it treated by a doctor than a

" spiritual healer. "

 

But to answers to questions such as " who am i " - i would be foolish to find a

" scientific " answer.

Why all this when the question is about deep sleep?

 

Because the question of what causes bliss has to begin by the " who " to whom

the bliss accrues to begin with.

 

With a scientific mentality of " bliss is caused by stimualtion of pleasure

centers in the brain " approach - then anything that " causes " bliss to take place

will necessarily be factors extrinsic to oneself - a rat feels bliss because of

a piece of cheese and the more pieces of cheese he earns the more bliss he feels

- so the richer a person is, the more materialstic " bliss-giving " things he

acquires, the more bliss he feels. Similarly why does sleep give bliss - because

taking some rest " creates " in me bliss. I feel tired - detected by one brain

center - i take rest - pleasure chemical secreted by another brain center - i

feel nice.

 

The spiritual approach is different - I AM Bliss. But a fictitious " i " - this

four hundred pound gorilla ego-sense - is completely unaware of this. Every

instance that this " wanting " i is resolved for a temporary time bound state this

" i " sense experiences bliss. I want a car, I get a car, - bliss. not becuase of

the car, not because of any pleaure center but because the wanting " i " has been

pacified for a few minutes or days. Day 2 - i want a better car like my

neighbour's new one - no bliss - back to square one.

 

In this context, the bliss of deep sleep is then not " borne out of " a

re-fuelling pit-stop for the

gross brain, but a reverting back on the part of this wanting " i " to its very

sourcepool of experiential happiness.

 

I can give you pentothal and induce you to be in a coma for lets say 48 hours.

A knock on the head can cause a person to be in a concussion-induced period of

" brain-rest " - think he would say " i slept happily "

No one ever came out of a pentothal coma and said " i felt bliss " .

I look forward to sleep everyday - lets say i had anesthesia for surgery a few

years back - do i covet a anesthesia experience every night?

Another knock on the head can give a person total short-term memory impairment

- he will have nothing registering in his brain.Let us say this impairment goes

away one fine morning with another knock on the head - will he feel - now with

his memory regained - " that was a period of blisful ignorance " ?

 

It is perfectly logical to postulate a panchakosha model, that puts the

vijnamayakosha in the proverbial drivers seat (in the famous horse-chariot

example)...everything that transpires at the level of the gross body is simply

an objectifiable manifestation of what is transacting at a underlying

" spiritual " level.

And Bliss being My very nature, not my quality, not my possession, is

experienced when there is less of my i-sense and more of Me.

 

And deep sleep is when there is nothing of " me " except in potential form and

all of " Me " save " my " ignorance of the same.

 

Lastly, insomniacs - those who are unable to sleep - the disorder is due to " a

persistent hyperarousal state " - the manomayakosha is in overdrive - these

patients cannot " stop their mind " they lay in bed and toss and turn because the

" e-go " refuses to " let go "

Even modern medicine does not advocate use of sedatives for these patients -

even though it is very simple and very predictable in being able to put them to

sleep - Why? - because the sleep is not " natural " - even the best hypnotic

cannot reproduce the bliss of a natural state of sleep. Teach these patients

relaxation techniques, yoga, more fancier terms like cognitive behavioral

therapy, biofeedback, stimulus control, etc - all aimed at what - quietening the

mind - and then sleep happens.

 

One can never fall asleep - try to and you never will - sleep simply takes

over when " you " let go - of what? - your " self " . One more of Ishwara's manifold

vibhutis.

 

" SanchAra padayOr pradakshana vidhi Nidra samAdhi sthitih

Yad Yad karma karOmi tad tad akhilam ShambhO tavAradhanam "

 

Humble pranams,

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

 

 

 

Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

Dear Shri Sampath,

 

Thank you for your post # 37329.

 

I am disappointed that you have not addressed the core issue.

According to him, the happiness of sleep is purely due

to relaxation and rest (biological and physical). Relaxation, rest

and the awareness of passage of time constitute the sleep

experience. The question is whether this view can be accepted or not.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

 

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