Who Slept very well?

[Guest guest]

PraNAms to all.

 

First I must admit that I got lost long time back in

the complicated discussions on the three states of

consciousness. Hence I could not join in the

discussions - not that I am now joining.

 

Second - I am not sure all the discussions that is

going will help me to resolve what I need to

understand - that is to understand who is the

witnessing consciousness that I am.

 

Third, I see shree Bhasker who started this discussion

-that jiiva merges with Brahman in deep sleep state-

is either busy or merged with Brahman.

 

I notice few things that I like to point out to focus

our attention - at least mine - in these endless

discussions.

 

1. The discussions about the deep sleep states are

taking place in the waking state. Of course, every

body knows that- right? Yet, for some reason, I feel

that it is important to recognize that - when we are

making judgment call about the deep-sleep state.

 

2. Our experience is we have no 'CONCEPT' of what that

deep sleep state is for us to 'conceptualize' the

state for discussion.

 

3. If one finds contradictions in Shankara's

statements or in Bhaashyass or even in the Upanishads

- we assume that it is made from different reference

points of the waking states (since all references

dissolve in the deep sleep state) - and therefore not

contradictions, since we have a faith that neither

scriptures contradict themselves nor Shankara.

 

Given these ground rules let us examine our experience

of deep sleep state as enumerated in the waking state.

----------------------

1. In deep sleep state - there is no concept of

space-time and thus the world of objects.

 

2. The seer-seen distinctions are gone - hence no

duality, what so ever.

 

3. The absence of duality is the experience of peace

called 'Bliss'. Ignorance is also bliss -since duality

is the root cause for all suffering. Giving reality to

duality is the delusion - forms the basis for our

suffering. Unreal duality does not cause a problem,

like paper tiger does not frighten us.

 

3. The mind as we know of - a substantive for vRitti

dhaara - or thought flow - is itself folded in the

deep sleep state. That is why we do not have any

specific knowledge or vijnaana, which is there in both

waking and dream states.

 

4. Therefore 'I' as crystallized as 'Ego' is not

available in the deep sleep state, since ego, as

defined, is one of the modifications of the mind that

is not there in the deep sleep state.

 

5. 'Who slept very well?' - the answer is " I slept

well' is the statement of the 'ego' which is not

there in the deep sleep state to sleep well!

 

Now little more subtle points.

 

6. There appears to be an 'experience' of deep sleep

state since the bliss is experienced as very relaxed

or rejuvenated mind. Hence deep sleep is essential for

every mind for it to function well in the waking and

dream worlds.

 

7. From the mind's point, it is an 'inference' drawn

that it slept well, even though it was not there in

the deep sleep state. At least it was not there as we

know of.

 

9. The law of memory is that 'experience and

recollecter of that experience' have to be locussed on

one and the same. That is why I cannot recollect your

experiences. Hence if I make a statement, which is a

statement of experience and not 'inference', that 'I

slept very well', it means that there is some 'I'

which was there to have that experience of sleeping

very well which can be recollected later in the waking

state.

 

Brahman can not experience anything – since experience

involves duality. Hence if I say I had the experience

of deep sleep – I cannot say I merged with Brahman and

still claim that I had the experience of Brahman.

 

10. Hence the conclusion that is drawn is that there

is witnessing consciousness (which is chidaabhaasa -

or also called conditioned consciousness)that is

witnessing the sleeping of the 'mind' in the deep

sleep state. What does that witnessing consciousness

witness - the absence of duality only - therefore that

includes the absence of mind too, since seer-seen

distinctions - vijnaana - arises with the mind.

 

Therefore the witnessing consciousness does not sleep!

(there is beautiful sloka by Lakshmidhara kavi on that

theme in Advaita Makaranada)

 

11. Is it merging with Brahman - Yes/No - depending on

the reference. First nothing can merge with Brahman

since Brahman implies that there is no 'anything'

other than Brahman for it to merge with Brahman. Hence

any statement to the effect that something merges with

Brahman is fundamentally incorrect - other than for

purpose of illustration - just as saying Brahman is

sat-chit-ananda swaruupa. Hence the statement that

jiiva merges with Brahman either in sleep or even in

self-realization has to be taken with a grain of salt

- since it is a statement relevant for the ignorant.

 

Since there is full lack of knowledge of any kind in

deep sleep state - ignorant jiiva will remain ignorant

in all three states - in the absence of duality, what

is not there is VIKSHEPA shakti - but aavaraNa shakti

remains as long as one is ignorant. For a realized

soul - in deep sleep state there is also no vijnaana

but samaanya jnaana that I am Brahman remains and

hence he sleeps as jnaani only.

 

Hence Mandukya says very clearly the deep sleep state

is aanandamaya not aananda swaruupa.

 

How does this help me to understand who I am?

 

1. Most importantly, it points out that I can exist

without a duality, since I slept very well without any

other for me to worry about.

 

2. All the duality that I see, in waking and dream

sleep has no reality whatsoever, since all that got

sublated in the deep sleep state.

 

3. Since 'I' was there to experience deep sleep state

and I was alone there (no duality) - I am only the

unsublatable reality in the three states.

 

4. Since 'I am " as the witnessing consciousness exits

even in the waking and dream states, there is a

possibility for me to see CLEARLY that 'I am' is

independent of any state -I am that

'EXISTENT-CONSCOUSNESS' that is a witnessing agent -

for that I need to stand apart and look at my mind to

filter out that seer-seen duality and SEE clear that

witness which is beyond the seer-seen duality. Hence

Scriptures redirects out mind to see that because of

which I have the capacity to see the duality. Here

the mind itself stands apart looking at the duality in

the mind! That is the witnessing consciousness in the

waking state.

 

I am there witnessing the duality and I am even when

the duality is not there - I am eternally present.

 

In that knowledge even the -witness-witnessed duality

disappears leaving with just 'I am' ' I am' -

Bhagavan Ramana puts this beautifully

'aham aham tayaa sphurati hRit swayam, paramam puurNam

and satswaruupam'. I am I am I am – raises

spontaneously in the core of ones personality – and

this I am is of supreme, and full or infinite and of

the nature of reality.

 

That is I feel is the very purpose of the analysis of

deep sleep state.

 

Now I can sit back, observe and enjoy the duality.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Wonderful.

 

Pranams,

Ravi

 

 

-

kuntimaddi sadananda

advaitin

Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:08 PM

Who Slept very well?

 

 

PraNAms to all.

 

First I must admit that I got lost long time back in

the complicated discussions on the three states of

consciousness. Hence I could not join in the

discussions - not that I am now joining.

 

Second - I am not sure all the discussions that is

going will help me to resolve what I need to

understand - that is to understand who is the

witnessing consciousness that I am.

 

Third, I see shree Bhasker who started this discussion

-that jiiva merges with Brahman in deep sleep state-

is either busy or merged with Brahman.

 

I notice few things that I like to point out to focus

our attention - at least mine - in these endless

discussions.

 

1. The discussions about the deep sleep states are

taking place in the waking state. Of course, every

body knows that- right? Yet, for some reason, I feel

that it is important to recognize that - when we are

making judgment call about the deep-sleep state.

 

2. Our experience is we have no 'CONCEPT' of what that

deep sleep state is for us to 'conceptualize' the

state for discussion.

 

3. If one finds contradictions in Shankara's

statements or in Bhaashyass or even in the Upanishads

- we assume that it is made from different reference

points of the waking states (since all references

dissolve in the deep sleep state) - and therefore not

contradictions, since we have a faith that neither

scriptures contradict themselves nor Shankara.

 

Given these ground rules let us examine our experience

of deep sleep state as enumerated in the waking state.

----------------------

1. In deep sleep state - there is no concept of

space-time and thus the world of objects.

 

2. The seer-seen distinctions are gone - hence no

duality, what so ever.

 

3. The absence of duality is the experience of peace

called 'Bliss'. Ignorance is also bliss -since duality

is the root cause for all suffering. Giving reality to

duality is the delusion - forms the basis for our

suffering. Unreal duality does not cause a problem,

like paper tiger does not frighten us.

 

3. The mind as we know of - a substantive for vRitti

dhaara - or thought flow - is itself folded in the

deep sleep state. That is why we do not have any

specific knowledge or vijnaana, which is there in both

waking and dream states.

 

4. Therefore 'I' as crystallized as 'Ego' is not

available in the deep sleep state, since ego, as

defined, is one of the modifications of the mind that

is not there in the deep sleep state.

 

5. 'Who slept very well?' - the answer is " I slept

well' is the statement of the 'ego' which is not

there in the deep sleep state to sleep well!

 

Now little more subtle points.

 

6. There appears to be an 'experience' of deep sleep

state since the bliss is experienced as very relaxed

or rejuvenated mind. Hence deep sleep is essential for

every mind for it to function well in the waking and

dream worlds.

 

7. From the mind's point, it is an 'inference' drawn

that it slept well, even though it was not there in

the deep sleep state. At least it was not there as we

know of.

 

9. The law of memory is that 'experience and

recollecter of that experience' have to be locussed on

one and the same. That is why I cannot recollect your

experiences. Hence if I make a statement, which is a

statement of experience and not 'inference', that 'I

slept very well', it means that there is some 'I'

which was there to have that experience of sleeping

very well which can be recollected later in the waking

state.

 

Brahman can not experience anything - since experience

involves duality. Hence if I say I had the experience

of deep sleep - I cannot say I merged with Brahman and

still claim that I had the experience of Brahman.

 

10. Hence the conclusion that is drawn is that there

is witnessing consciousness (which is chidaabhaasa -

or also called conditioned consciousness)that is

witnessing the sleeping of the 'mind' in the deep

sleep state. What does that witnessing consciousness

witness - the absence of duality only - therefore that

includes the absence of mind too, since seer-seen

distinctions - vijnaana - arises with the mind.

 

Therefore the witnessing consciousness does not sleep!

(there is beautiful sloka by Lakshmidhara kavi on that

theme in Advaita Makaranada)

 

11. Is it merging with Brahman - Yes/No - depending on

the reference. First nothing can merge with Brahman

since Brahman implies that there is no 'anything'

other than Brahman for it to merge with Brahman. Hence

any statement to the effect that something merges with

Brahman is fundamentally incorrect - other than for

purpose of illustration - just as saying Brahman is

sat-chit-ananda swaruupa. Hence the statement that

jiiva merges with Brahman either in sleep or even in

self-realization has to be taken with a grain of salt

- since it is a statement relevant for the ignorant.

 

Since there is full lack of knowledge of any kind in

deep sleep state - ignorant jiiva will remain ignorant

in all three states - in the absence of duality, what

is not there is VIKSHEPA shakti - but aavaraNa shakti

remains as long as one is ignorant. For a realized

soul - in deep sleep state there is also no vijnaana

but samaanya jnaana that I am Brahman remains and

hence he sleeps as jnaani only.

 

Hence Mandukya says very clearly the deep sleep state

is aanandamaya not aananda swaruupa.

 

How does this help me to understand who I am?

 

1. Most importantly, it points out that I can exist

without a duality, since I slept very well without any

other for me to worry about.

 

2. All the duality that I see, in waking and dream

sleep has no reality whatsoever, since all that got

sublated in the deep sleep state.

 

3. Since 'I' was there to experience deep sleep state

and I was alone there (no duality) - I am only the

unsublatable reality in the three states.

 

4. Since 'I am " as the witnessing consciousness exits

even in the waking and dream states, there is a

possibility for me to see CLEARLY that 'I am' is

independent of any state -I am that

'EXISTENT-CONSCOUSNESS' that is a witnessing agent -

for that I need to stand apart and look at my mind to

filter out that seer-seen duality and SEE clear that

witness which is beyond the seer-seen duality. Hence

Scriptures redirects out mind to see that because of

which I have the capacity to see the duality. Here

the mind itself stands apart looking at the duality in

the mind! That is the witnessing consciousness in the

waking state.

 

I am there witnessing the duality and I am even when

the duality is not there - I am eternally present.

 

In that knowledge even the -witness-witnessed duality

disappears leaving with just 'I am' ' I am' -

Bhagavan Ramana puts this beautifully

'aham aham tayaa sphurati hRit swayam, paramam puurNam

and satswaruupam'. I am I am I am - raises

spontaneously in the core of ones personality - and

this I am is of supreme, and full or infinite and of

the nature of reality.

 

That is I feel is the very purpose of the analysis of

deep sleep state.

 

Now I can sit back, observe and enjoy the duality.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

As Shri Sadananda points out so effectively (message #37355, Sep 19),

it is the thinking mind that sleeps, not knowing consciousness.

 

As states that pass in course of time, waking, dream and deep sleep

are mind-thought concepts. By thinking that a world perceived is

known outside its thoughts and feelings, the mind conceives a state

of waking. By thinking that a world perceived is known inside its

thoughts and feelings, the mind conceives a state of dream. By

thinking that no world appears perceived at all when thoughts and

feelings disappear, the mind conceives a state of deep sleep.

 

But, as it's thus conceived, this deep sleep state cannot be rightly

known by mind. In depth of sleep, when thoughts and feelings

disappear, the mind is absent. To know this state truly, the mind

must be present here, knowing that it is absent. Any such self-

contradiction is no more than a confused and a misleading thought,

which cannot be true knowing.

 

What then is shown when mind sleeps well, quite undisturbed by any

changing thoughts and feelings? What rightly knows that unconflicted

sleeping well, and what is it that is thus rightly known?

 

What rightly knows that sleeping well must be a consciousness which

stays on present through the changing mind's appearances and

disappearances. And what's thus known must be an untroubled peace and

a refreshing happiness, to which a troubled and a tired mind may seek

return for healing rest and recuperated motivation.

 

Beneath its veil of seeming blankness and inertia, deep sleep may

thus be found to show an unaffected source of life to which all

actions must return and for whose sake they are inspired to arise.

 

Ananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadanadaji,

>

 

Your analysis of the deep sleep state is absolutely brilliant. It reminded

me of the discourses of Swami Chinmayananda.

While almost all post-Sankara advaitins hold that the mind remains in its

causal state of avidya in deep sleep, Swami Satchidanandendra Sarasvati

holds (according to my understanding) that there is no avidya in that state

His view seems to be that there is no mention in Sankara's bhAshya about the

exisrence of avidya in deep sleep. Some members of this group are disciples

of SSS. As the two views are totally opposed to each other discussion

between the two groups can go on endlessly without any agreement being

reached. This is my understanding. Disciples of SSS may please correct me if

I am wrong.

I may add that such divergence of views on various aspects of advaita is

very common. vivaraNa and bhAmati are two examples, but there are many,

many, more. All of them are totally devoted to Sankara and say that their

interpretation is in accord with Sankara's views. None of them claims to

put forward any original propsition of his own.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri

 

 

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pranams respected Sastriji:

 

I agree with your assertion with respect to the existence

of " divergence of views on various aspects of Advaita Philosophy. "

As advaitins we have to agree that " The Brahman only knows the

Brahman. " With contemplation, we should be able to recognize our

inability to know everything what Sankara and other sages have stated

in their manumental works. Everything that we read, discuss and

write can provide only our own understanding of what we have read and

written. Few days back, you have thoughtfully provided several Slokas

from sanatsujAtIyam and the one quoted below is very insightful.

 

 

yo veda vedAn sa ca veda vedyam

na tam vidur vedavido na vedAh |

tathApi vedena vidanti vedam

ye brAhmaNA vedavido bhavanti ||43

 

He who knows the vedas knows only the universe of objects. Neither

the vedas nor the knower of the vedas can know brahman, since brahman

cannot be objectified. All the same, brAhmaNas (enlightened persons)

who know how to understand the purport of the vedas know brahman

through the vedas.

 

The message is very subtle. Veda in this sloka is a reference

to " the Vedas, " " Sound, " " Knowledge " and also " Truth.. " First,

some consider listening to Vedas is a mere chanting of Mantra with a

rhythm. Second, some regard them as the holy scriptures consisting of

the 4 monumental treatises – Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva.. Third,

few others want to investigate the knowledge content of the Vedas.

Finally for some they represents the Truth and they prepare

themselves to understand the Truth that is beyond the words,

language, sound and the objective knowledge. In other words, the

verse confirms that Truth can never be understood through noise of

expressions coming from words and we have to stop making noise and

listen to our inner voice in silence.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> I may add that such divergence of views on various aspects of

advaita is

> very common. vivaraNa and bhAmati are two examples, but there are

many,

> many, more. All of them are totally devoted to Sankara and say that

their

> interpretation is in accord with Sankara's views. None of them

claims to

> put forward any original propsition of his own.

> Regards,

> S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Third, I see shree Bhasker who started this discussion -that jiiva merges

with Brahman in deep sleep state-

is either busy or merged with Brahman.

 

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

No prabhuji, I have not yet merged with brahman, still I am shouldering lot

of responsibilities in my family circle :-)) ('merging with brahman' or

'brahmaikya' in vyAvahArik sense indicates 'death' is it not prabhuji :-))

Just bit busy with some official obligation...as you know, my employer is

not paying me for discussing vEdAnta in cybernet :-))

 

After seeing your question in the subject line, one more question came to

my mind.i.e...who needs enlightenment?? I think, if we find the answer to

this question, the solution to the above problem will come automatically

:-)))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Swami Satchidanandendra Sarasvati holds (according to my understanding)

that there is no avidya in that state

His view seems to be that there is no mention in Sankara's bhAshya about

the exisrence of avidya in deep sleep.

 

praNAms Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I shall write to you personally with regard to your private mail on sUtra

bhAshya prabhuji....

 

But now, being a student of Sri SSS, I think, it is my primary duty to

clarify here in this list that Sri SSS in any of his work, did not try to

engage himself in any sort of *vittanda vAda* just to prove his points &

refute post shankara advaitins....In the case of *kAraNAvidyA or

mUlAvidyA* in sushupti too, his objectivity of looking at the things,

does not change... Whereever shankara & shruti imply that there is

*avidyA* in sushupti, Sri SSS, taken it *as it is* and without disturbing

the original purport, explains its intricacies under the light of

'adhyArOpa & apavAda', the traditional way of teaching in advaita

saMpradAya. And if the situation calls for further elaboration of the

particular bhAshya vAkyA, he gives his notes & clarifications (again with

the support of shankara bhAshya only) & explains why it is said like that

in that context & from which view point shankata telling that etc..So,

IMHO, it is wrong to assume that Sri SSS never admitted avidyA in deep

sleep state & propagated his own view points as against bhAshyakAra &

shruti!!!

 

I shall try to write something about it this week end...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar