Weekly Definitions- vyavahara and paramarthika

[Guest guest]

Dennisji :

 

Thank you so kindly for your support and encouragement . but for my

energy and enthusiasm, this shakti would have been dead long time

ago ! the body is weak but the spirit is willing! i used to 'fly'

like a butterfly and sting like a bee and now walking like a 'lame'

duck due to an 'arthritic' knee !

 

guess what , dennisji - i just discovered that our beloved moderator

Sri Sri Ramachandranji has penned some beautiful lines on Vyavahara

and paramarthika and this is available at your web site

 

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/truth_ram.htm

 

And how can we ever *top* what bsri ramj has already written on this

popular subject ? maybe we can all add to this wonderful write up by

sri ramji?

 

here it is , guys - go for it !

 

Everything that we do is at the vyAvahArika level only and even the

description and explanation of pAramArthika are also at the

vyAvahArika level.

 

No one except Brahman knows what the pAramArthika level is and even

this assertion is only at the vyAvahArika level. The sages and

saints are always careful and they have avoided making any false

claims. Our problem is the lack of understanding of what they say

and most of the time, we attribute our mistakes as theirs.

 

They employ a `reference point' to illustrate the Truth at the

vyAvahArika level and they are aware of our limitations. It seems

that we overextend their assertions and try to go beyond! In the

rope and snake example - the reference point (rope) is the Truth at

the vyAvahArika level. Due to darkness (ignorance) the rope appears

as the non-existent snake. But with the correct understanding (torch

light) the truth is revealed.

 

Now reasoning is employed to illustrate the Truth at the

pAramArthika level - the rope of vyAvahArika became the Brahman of

pAramArthika and the non-existent snake of vyAvahArika became the

non-existent World of pAramArthika. We do need to recognize that

that this illustration with additional explanation is only at the

vyAvahArika level! This example or analogy does not provide any clue

about pAramArthika or the Brahman to those who determine not to

accept any analogy. The `dream' analogy is another example that

again falls as the explanation of pAramArthika reality using a

vyAvahArika frame work.

 

The Truth at the pAramArthika level does require us to extend our

understanding beyond vyAvahArika level. Any of our claims about the

TRUTH at the pAramArthika level are just further speculation. TRUTH

can't be understood analytically by any `brilliant mind (intellect)'

and that is the bottom line. This may explain why scripture becomes

relevant for us to accept or reject a `speculated truth.'

 

For Hindus, the `Vedas or shruti - the revealed truth' became the

authority for resolving issues related to the establishment of the

Truth. The `shruti' is the experience of the `SELF' by the

`jiivanmukta.' Any documentation of Vedas will not qualify for the

term - `shruti.' All documented versions of Vedas become `smRRiti -

a diluted form of Truth.'

 

Consequently TRUTH (Self-Realization) can never be described in

words. Everything that is written, spoken or remembered will fall

into the vyAvahArika level.

 

*********************************************************************

Thank you , ramji - i invite all newcomers specially Shyamji ,

sampathji , rishiji, etc etc and also the seasoned advaitins to add

to these definitionns !

 

love and regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " advaitins " <advaitins wrote:

>

> Some key ones that are relevant to recent

> discussions and which have not yet been defined are: gross, subtle

and

> causal bodies; lIlA; nirguNa-saguNa; paramArtha-vyavahAra; states

of

> consciousness; turIya.

[Guest guest]

Namaste sister srimathi Bhagini:

 

Thanks for coming forward to take up the definition of these two key

advaitic terms - together they provide the essence of Vedanta

philosophy.

 

In very simple terms, " What I think that I know " belongs to

Vyvaharika and " What I REALLY Know what I don't know " becomes

Paramarthika.

 

By the way anything more that I try to explain (including the above

statements) will not help me and others to recognize the

Paramarthika. This does not mean that I should not explain and let me

try more.

 

For example, happiness at the vyavaharika level is an materialistic

experience of happiness which can be explained by: I am happy because

of a, b, c, etc (a could be drinking a cup of coffee, etc.,)

Happiness at the Paramarthika level is a spiritual event - I am happy

and there is no " because of. " It is unconditional, eternal and

changeless.

 

This quotation by Nathaniel Hawthorne is quite inspirational and come

very close to Vedanta:

 

Happiness is like a butterfly which, when pursued, is always beyond

our grasp, but, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

<bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

>

This example or analogy does not provide any clue

> about pAramArthika or the Brahman to those who determine not to

> accept any analogy. The `dream' analogy is another example that

> again falls as the explanation of pAramArthika reality using a

> vyAvahArika frame work.

>

[Guest guest]

my dear Ramji :

 

you are the person most qualified to write on this topic of vyavahra

and paramarthika .

 

please , please why don't you fine tune your earlier post on this

subject which is post number Message #20400 (Wed Dec 31, 2003 )

Re: Yoga Vasistha on the Mind adrressed to Beni which is in advaitin

archives on this subject of Vyavahara and paramarthika and repost so

our beloved Dennisji can inculde this in his weekly definitions ? i

will as usual add my 2 cents ! but , you are the leader - i am just a

follower ! Dennisji will appreciate it very much ! OTHER MEMBERS WILL

ADD ON TO YOUR DEFINITION! SPECIALLY OUR YOUNG LION CUB SAMPATHJI !

 

also , dennisji , if you will notice on your web site , peterji has

already posted Notes on 'turiya' , sri anandaji on the three states

etc .... may be you can use some of these for your weekly

definitions .

 

i will try to work on the three Bodies - Sthula , susksms and karana

shariras !

 

LOVE AND REGARDS

[Guest guest]

namaste

also kindly tell about prathi basika sath

thanks

 

 

On 9/29/07, bhagini_niveditaa <bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

>

> my dear Ramji :

>

> you are the person most qualified to write on this topic of vyavahra

> and paramarthika .

>

> .

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

cheers

Narendra P. Sastry,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

sorry again,

 

I just recall Sadanandaji was giving pramAna for vyavaharika,paramArthika

and prathibhAsika sath, let me recall vyavahArika sath by tatastha lakshana

(correct me please), for others I cant remembert sorry, could you kindly

enlighten briefly on these aswell too

thanks

 

 

 

 

On 9/29/07, narendra sastry <narendra.sastry wrote:

>

> namaste

> also kindly tell about prathi basika sath

> thanks

>

>

> On 9/29/07, bhagini_niveditaa <bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

> >

> > my dear Ramji :

> >

> > you are the person most qualified to write on this topic of vyavahra

> > and paramarthika .

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> cheers

> Narendra P. Sastry,

 

 

 

 

--

cheers

Narendra P. Sastry,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Adiji,

 

 

 

It seems you are more familiar with the content of my website than I am! I

will certainly take note of what you say and perhaps duplicate the pages

that you mention for separate inclusion in the 'Definition of terms'

section. Thank you for your support! (And hope it encourages others to join

in.)

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

<<<

also , dennisji , if you will notice on your web site , peterji has

already posted Notes on 'turiya' , sri anandaji on the three states

etc .... may be you can use some of these for your weekly

definitions .

 

i will try to work on the three Bodies - Sthula , susksms and karana

shariras ! >>>>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hariH OM! adiji and ramji,

 

please excuse the delayed reply..

 

fom what i've come to understand, the deeper one looks into the intra-

systemic makeup of these *seemingly* separate states of being, the

less clear their differences become.

 

i emphasize " seemingly " because for practical purposes they're far

more intimately integrated than we've been self-conditioned to

believe (i.e. via the way the mind tends to categorize things).

 

ram-ji makes an insightful point re Truth. i would elaborate

somewhat further by pointing out that Truth is everpresent even in

the midst of the vyavahara except and until it is attempted to be

accessed by the concrete thinking mind, whereupon commensurate with

the effort to behold, it becomes that much more elusive. the Truth,

as ramji has stated, isn't available to the vyavahara realm; however

it nevertheless maintains an unyielding constant embedded in the

causal foundation of the jivatman.

 

as the theosophical saying goes, " the mind is the slayer of the

Real. " this is especially applicable to life's unfolding phenomenon

whose inner mechanism is itself the existential blend of the

vyavahara and paramartha.

 

so that, in the last analysis, as long as the mind is held in check

as per attempting to behold Reality (satchidanada), the inherent

state behind life's essential process avails quite automatically the

paramarthic thrust of atmanishta...where experiencing it depends on

the capacity to simply BE without the ego-Mind's propensity to

analize and extract.

 

we're exoterically evoking the snake maya, while esoterically

immersed in the rope reality.

 

namaste,

frank

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

In Vedanta literature there are some discussions related to the three

notions of reality:

 

'Prathibhasika Sathya, Vyavaharika Sathya and Paramarthika Sathya'.

Before the discussions, let us make sure that we understand that

Truth is only one and it is never threefold. These narrations are

just reflections of our own perceptions at different situations.

Prathibhasika Sathya has neither basis, nor any existence. It is our

illusion and a good example is the reality during dream. When there

is twilight, a little light and a little darkness, we come by a rope

and mistake it to be a snake. Really speaking, there is no snake

there. The snake is only in our mind and the thing that is really

there is only the rope. This is also referred as Prathibhasika

Sathya.

 

When we stand in front of a mirror, we see our reflection on it. When

we move away, the reflection vanishes. Therefore, the reflection

depends on the original object and only when it is there, we will

see the reflection. Here, there is one basis, namely, the original

thing. Without the original, there is no reflection. This is an

illustration of Vyavaharika Sathya. On the other hand, Paramarthika

Sathya is an entity which is present everywhere and at all times.

This is the true and eternal reality. A number of examples can be

provided to illustrate the Paramarthika Sathya: (1) Gold and golden

ornaments – here the form and names such as bangle, ring, necklace

have changed but the gold remains without any change. (2) Clay and

pots of different shapes and sizes. There are many bulbs with many

different voltages and different colors. Even though we see many

forms, many names, many races, many creeds and many castes in this

world, we must know that the God that is present in all of them, the

inner being, is in reality only one. Those with " Samadrishti "

and " Sama Bhava " will be able to see " Only God " with different names

and forms.

 

The discussions related to Tatastha lakshana and Swaroopa lakshana

are described well by Sadaji in the following link:

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/sadananda/svarupa_sadananda.htm

See also profvkji's homepage for related discussion.

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/34.html

 

with my warmest regards,

 

Ram chandran

 

Re: Re: Weekly Definitions- vyavahara and paramarthika

 

sorry again,

 

I just recall Sadanandaji was giving pramAna for

vyavaharika,paramArthika

and prathibhAsika sath, let me recall vyavahArika sath by tatastha

lakshana

(correct me please), for others I cant remembert sorry, could you

kindly

enlighten briefly on these aswell too

thanks

[Guest guest]

after posting a few hours ago, the following [new insight on an old

advaitic analogy] came to me, which will hopefully help clarify what

was in some ways a confusing post.

 

____________

 

equating the paramarthika with the screen,

and the vyavaharika with the projected image on the screen,

 

and assuming in our experiment that the theater is pitch black.

 

1. without the screen, we wouldn't be able to see the projected image;

2. far more significantly, without the image we wouldn't be able to

*INTUIT* the existence of the screen!

 

it is in this sense how i see the two states are [NOT by definition or

theory, but] pragmatically intertwined.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

<bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

 

==================================

 

praNAms to all,

 

My thanks to mAtA niveditAji for inviting me to express my views on

this subject.

 

My views:--

 

Let us consider the following story,

 

## Once a young lioness going about in search of prey saw a flock of

sheep and jumped upon them. She died in the effort; and a little baby

lion was born, motherless. It was taken care of by the sheep and the

sheep brought it up, and it grew up with them, ate grass, and bleated

like the sheep. And although in time it became a big, full-grown lion.

it thought it was a sheep. One day another lion came in search of prey

and was astonished to find that in the midst of this flock of sheep

was a lion, fleeing like the sheep at the approach of danger. He tried

to get near the sheep-lion, to tell it that it was not a sheep but a

lion; but the poor animal fled at his approach. However, he watched

his opportunity and one day found the sheep-lion sleeping. He

approached it and said, " You are a lion. " " I am a sheep, " cried the

other lion and could not believe the contrary but bleated. The lion

dragged him towards a lake and said, " Look here, here is my reflection

and yours. " Then came the comparison. It looked at the lion and then

at its own reflection, and in a moment came the idea that it was a

lion. " I do not look like the sheep — it is true, I am a lion! " and

with that he roared a roar that shook the hills to their depths! ##

 

 

Following conclusions can be drawn from the above story,

 

** The lion has realized that it had always been a lion even when it

had thought that it was a sheep. Thus the false knowledge it had was

annihilated.

 

The essential nature of lion is unaffected at all times. It is

pAramArthika. It is eternally unsublatable. It is the play of

vyAvahArika where we see the " becoming " and " unbecoming " .

 

From vyAvahArika level we may say that the sheep has " become " lion.

But the truth is, lion was always the same like an infinite sky. The

" Sheep " nature is like a cloud which comes over it, plays for a

moment, then vanishes. But the sky is ever the same eternal blue.

 

After all there was no Sheep existing but in the Mind of the lion! So

is the vyAvahArika state, unreal from the absolute standpoint. We see

the world as we are! There is a tree in the dark. A thief would

imagine it to be a police man. A boy would imagine it to be a ghost

and so on. But the tree remains unchanged.

 

** A question may be asked as, What is the benefit the sheep-Lion has

got by realizing? It could have spent its life happily thinking itself

to be a sheep.

 

Reply: It has got rid of the " FEAR " by realizing that there is nothing

which could destroy it. This is surely a benefit in whatever way you

may consider it!

Fear is bondage. Fearlessness is liberation. Because fear arises out

of duality alone!

Katha Upanishad says,

 

yadidam kincha jagat sarvaM praaNa ejati niHsRitam

mahadbhayaM vajramudyataM ya etadviduramRitaaste bhavanti !! 2 !!

 

Whatever there is—the whole universe—vibrates because it has gone

forth from Brahman, which exists as its Ground. That Brahman is a

great terror, like a poised thunderbolt. Those who know It become

immortal.

 

bhayaadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suuryaH

bhayaadindrashcha vaayushcha mRityurdhaavati paJNchamaH !! 3 !!

 

From terror of Brahman, fire burns; from terror of It, the sun shines;

from terror of It, Indra and Vayu and Death, the fifth, run.

 

## This fear alone has kept the sun, air and death in their respective

places and functions, allowing none to escape from their bounds.

When the gods Indra, Chandra, Vayu, Varuna will attain to

fearlessness, then will they be one with Brahman, and all this

phantasm of the world will vanish.

 

!! Aum namO brahmavidbhyaH !!

 

P.S. Inspired by Swamiji, I have borrowed some of his ideas to make my

views more clear.

[Guest guest]

Thank you my brave lion cub , Nachiketa for penning a few lines on

this topic. The grandma in me loves to tell stories and also hear

stories . i specially loved the Katha upanishad quote . Nice!

 

A very dear friend of mine wrote off list and i am only reproducing

parts of the message as the rest of the message pertains to Maa

Kundalini shakti , which has no place in traditional Advaita .

 

here it goes :

 

There is no unadulterated truth in vyavaharika sathya. The term

*Satya * is used here because there is still truth in it. But the

truth is overlaid with the false. Vyavaharika sathya is truth mixed

with the false. The truth can be explained by reason. The false

cannot be explained by reason. When the light of reason falls on

the admixture of truth and falsity in vyavaharika sathya, the false

vanishes and the truth remains. Darkness does not remain in Light.

What remains is paramarthika sathya. The falsity that is overlaid

over the truth in vyavaharika can remain only when reason is

clouded over with unreason. Vyavaharika sathya prevails in the

darkness of unreason that clouds the reasoning intellect. To state

that vyavaharika sathya can be defined is a contradictionin terms

because what is seen through the cloud of unreason (or

unknowing) cannot be defined. It has no clarity. It survives in the

veryquagmire of delsusion generated by the clouded intellect. It is

anirvacaniya. "

 

Sampathgaru , you hail from Swami vivekanandaji's lineage , i will

share this verse from Isa Upanishad with you for you can appreciate

all different perspectives as is obvious from your response to my

question on Yoga Nidra !

 

Swami Paramananda :

 

Isa Upanishad XIV

 

" He who knows at the same time both the Unmanifested (the cause of

manifestation) and the destructible or manifested, he crosses over

death through knowledge of the destructible and attains immortality

through knowledge of the First Cause (Unmanifested). This particular

Upanishad deals chiefly with the Invisible Cause and the visible

manifestation, and the whole trend of its teaching is to show that

they are one and the same, one being the outcome of the other hence

no perfect knowledge is possible without simultaneous comprehension

of both. The wise men declare that he who worships in a one–sided

way, whether the visible or the invisible, does not reach the

highest goal. Only he who has a co–ordinated understanding of both

the visible and the invisible, of matter and spirit, of activity and

that which is behind activity, conquers Nature and thus overcomes

death. By work, by making the mind steady and by following the

prescribed rules given in the Scriptures, a man gains wisdom. By the

light of that wisdom he is able to perceive the Invisible Cause in

all visible forms. Therefore the wise man sees Him in every

manifested form. They who have a true conception of God are never

separated from Him. They exist in Him and He in them. " )

 

What would you rather be ? a Lion in sheep's clothing or a sheep in

lion's clothing ? This is sandhya bhasha ! Twilight language of the

tantras !

 

Aum Shanti ! Shanti ! Shantihi!

 

ps : sampathji - it is always divine to end the posts with the Aum

shanti chant after quoting upanishadic verse ! my gurudeva from the

rasri ramakrishna lineage taught me this !

 

 

 

 

- In advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

> advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

> <bhagini_niveditaa@> wrote:

>

> ==================================

>

> praNAms to all,

>

> My thanks to mAtA niveditAji for inviting me to express my views on

> this subject.

>

> My views:--

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks heaps Ram chandran ji and others for correct explanations

jai gurudeva

Narendra

 

On 9/30/07, Ram Chandran <ramvchandran wrote:

>

> Namaste:

>

> In Vedanta literature there are some discussions related to the three

> notions of reality:

>

> 'Prathibhasika Sathya, Vyavaharika Sathya and Paramarthika Sathya'.

> Before the discussions, let us make sure that we understand that

> Truth is only one and it is never threefold. These narrations are

> just reflections of our own perceptions at different situations.

> Prathibhasika Sathya has neither basis, nor any existence. It is our

> .

>

>

>