Sruti supporting Grace of God as prerequisite for Gnana/Realisation?

[Guest guest]

Namaste, all

One of my friends has said “none of the Upanishads mentioned that grace of God

is a must for Gnana/Realization”.

I would be grateful if this statement is correct, because I myself have not

studied thoroughly even the Dasopanishads. If not, kindly quote particular Stuti

Vakyas with reference of the particular Upanishad/s.

Thank you and with warm regards

Mani

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Mani,

There is the following mantra in Svetasvatara up:-

yasya deva parA bhkaktih yathA deve tathA gurau,

tasyete kathitA hyarthAh prakASante mahAtmanaH.

" To that great soul who has supreme devotion to God and equal devotion to

his guru, the import of all that has been said here becomes clear " .

The inport of all the upanishads is brahman. So this means that devotion

will help the aspirabt to attain realization.

S.N.Sastri

 

 

On 10/8/07, R.S.MANI <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> Namaste, all

> One of my friends has said " none of the Upanishads mentioned that grace of

> God is a must for Gnana/Realization " .

> I would be grateful if this statement is correct, because I myself have

> not studied thoroughly even the Dasopanishads. If not, kindly quote

> particular Stuti Vakyas with reference of the particular Upanishad/s.

> Thank you and with warm regards

> Mani

>

>

> R. S. Mani

>

>

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Mani,

> There is the following mantra in Svetasvatara up:-

> yasya deva parA bhkaktih yathA deve tathA gurau,

> tasyete kathitA hyarthAh prakASante mahAtmanaH.

> " To that great soul who has supreme devotion to God and equal

devotion to

> his guru, the import of all that has been said here becomes clear " .

> The inport of all the upanishads is brahman. So this means that

devotion

> will help the aspirabt to attain realization.

> S.N.Sastri

>

>

>

 

Namaste all

 

I am sure Sastri-ji knows this:

 

" To that great soul who has supreme devotion to God and equal

devotion to his guru, the import of all that has " not " been said

here becomes clear " .

 

This is also another meaning of the Upanishad quote. You have only to

interpret *tasyaite-kathithAH* as *tasyaite akathithAH* which is also

grammatically correct!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " V. Krishnamurthy " <profvk

wrote:

>

> advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Shri Mani,

> > There is the following mantra in Svetasvatara up:-

 

Namaste,

 

Here are some additional references:

 

http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_upanishhat/mundaka.itx [3:2:3]

 

naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyo

na medhayaa na bahunaa shrutena |

yamevaishha vR^iNute tena labhya\-

stasyaishha aatmaa vivR^iNute tanuu.n svaam.h || 3||

 

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/mirrors/vv/scripture/upanishads/mund6.html

 

This Atman (Brahman) will not lend Itself to be comprehended

by discoursing, through intellect or extensive listening or

learning. It can be gained by him, whom the Brahman

chooses, and to him It reveals Its essential nature (3).

======================================================================

 

http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_upanishhat/shveta.itx [6:20]

 

aNoraNiiyaan.h mahato mahiiyaa\-

naatmaa guhaayaa.n nihito.asya jantoH .

tamakratuH pashyati viitashoko

dhaatuH prasaadaanmahimaanamiisham.h .. 20..

 

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/mirrors/vv/scripture/upanishads/sveta3.html

 

Subtler than the subtlest, greater than the greatest,

the Self is hidden in the hearts of creatures. By

the grace of the Creator, the desireless man beholds

the Lord and is freed from Sorrow.

=====================================================================

 

Bhagavadgita mentions:

 

 

11:1 madanugrahAya

 

18:56, 58 matprasAdAt

 

18:62 tatprasAdAt

 

18:73 tvatprasAdAt

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Pardon me if this sounds like a naive question.

Sunderji, you quoted:

" This Atman (Brahman) will not lend Itself to be

comprehended by discoursing, through intellect or

extensive listening or learning. It can be gained by

him, whom the Brahman chooses, and to him It reveals

Its essential nature. "

 

I wish to ask if this is said only in metaphorical

terms, right? For e.g. terms such as " choosing

someone " or " revealing oneself " are essentially

dualistic in nature, and hence cannot be attributed to

the Atman. To the unrealized sAdhaka, it appears as if

he/she is ordained by the Paramatman to receive the

highest knowledge, but for the Brahman, there is no

choosing and revealing.

I believe the verse is meant to convey that the

supreme knowledge comes to those who are worthy; and

not to anyone else. This fact (of the disciple being

worthy) is metaphorically termed as the 'Atman

choosing to reveal itself " .

 

I hope the elders can clarify if this indeed is the

meaning, or if there is another way of looking at the

verse. With some variations the same doubt arises for

the references too.

Pranam,

Vaibhav.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The translation may have missed out on some important words:

vRRiNute, etc. - one who seeks sincerely (literally, consumed by it).

Sankara bhashya is as follows:

 

yam eva paramAtmAnam eva eShaH vidvAn vRRiNute prAptum ichchhati,

tena varaNena eSha para AtmA labhyaH, na anyena sAdhanAntareNa,

nityalabdhasvabhAvatvAt |

 

to the wise one whose sole goal is the Supreme Spirit, It - of the

nature of ever-attained Self-hood - chooses to reveal Itself. That is

the worthiness you have rightly emphasized.

 

It indicates 'tIvra mumukShutvam' (intense yearning for liberation).

 

Even the most sublime language has to operate in the phenomenal

world, and only by the 'shAkhA-chandra-nyAya' (indirect pointing) can

the Self-revelation be expressed.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

>

you quoted:

> " This Atman (Brahman) will not lend Itself to be

> comprehended by discoursing, through intellect or

> extensive listening or learning. It can be gained by

> him, whom the Brahman chooses, and to him It reveals

> Its essential nature. "

>

> I wish to ask if this is said only in metaphorical

> terms, right? For e.g. terms such as " choosing

> someone " or " revealing oneself " are essentially

> dualistic in nature, and hence cannot be attributed to

> the Atman. To the unrealized sAdhaka, it appears as if

> he/she is ordained by the Paramatman to receive the

> highest knowledge, but for the Brahman, there is no

> choosing and revealing.

> I believe the verse is meant to convey that the

> supreme knowledge comes to those who are worthy; and

> not to anyone else. This fact (of the disciple being

> worthy) is metaphorically termed as the 'Atman

> choosing to reveal itself " .

>

> I hope the elders can clarify if this indeed is the

> meaning, or if there is another way of looking at the

> verse. With some variations the same doubt arises for

> the references too.

[Guest guest]

Kena means by whom. All Upanishads start with a shanti mantra.

 

Om Sahanavavathu. Shanowpunakthu.

Shaveeryam karavavahai

Dejasvi navadeethamasthu

Mahvidvishavahai.

Ohm shanthihi shanthihi shanthihi.

 

Guru and disciple say this prayer together. This the prayer recited

by all teachers and students in all kendriya vidyalayas of our

country.

 

The meaning: " May He (Brahma) protect us both together, May He

nourish us both together. May we work conjointly with great energy.

May our study be vigorous and effective, May we not despise (hate)

any. Let there be peace… peace…peace " .

 

Lead me from the unreal to the real,

Lead me from darkness to light,

Lead me from death to immortality.

 

What are the three shanthi's?

 

Hindrances are three types. Adyathmikam that is coming from within us

like Diseases mental worries. Next is adi physics- trouble from other

living beings. The third is adi daivikam- the ones caused by nature.

Rain, fire cyclone are the hindrances from nature. To get us relieved

from them we say Om shanthihi shanthihi shanthihi.

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much all leanred and respected members for your kind input.

I hope I can convince my friend that he was wrong.

with pranams

mani

 

Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

Namaste,

 

The translation may have missed out on some important words:

vRRiNute, etc. - one who seeks sincerely (literally, consumed by it).

Sankara bhashya is as follows:

 

yam eva paramAtmAnam eva eShaH vidvAn vRRiNute prAptum ichchhati,

tena varaNena eSha para AtmA labhyaH, na anyena sAdhanAntareNa,

nityalabdhasvabhAvatvAt |

 

to the wise one whose sole goal is the Supreme Spirit, It - of the

nature of ever-attained Self-hood - chooses to reveal Itself. That is

the worthiness you have rightly emphasized.

 

It indicates 'tIvra mumukShutvam' (intense yearning for liberation).

 

Even the most sublime language has to operate in the phenomenal

world, and only by the 'shAkhA-chandra-nyAya' (indirect pointing) can

the Self-revelation be expressed.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

>

you quoted:

> " This Atman (Brahman) will not lend Itself to be

> comprehended by discoursing, through intellect or

> extensive listening or learning. It can be gained by

> him, whom the Brahman chooses, and to him It reveals

> Its essential nature. "

>

> I wish to ask if this is said only in metaphorical

> terms, right? For e.g. terms such as " choosing

> someone " or " revealing oneself " are essentially

> dualistic in nature, and hence cannot be attributed to

> the Atman. To the unrealized sAdhaka, it appears as if

> he/she is ordained by the Paramatman to receive the

> highest knowledge, but for the Brahman, there is no

> choosing and revealing.

> I believe the verse is meant to convey that the

> supreme knowledge comes to those who are worthy; and

> not to anyone else. This fact (of the disciple being

> worthy) is metaphorically termed as the 'Atman

> choosing to reveal itself " .

>

> I hope the elders can clarify if this indeed is the

> meaning, or if there is another way of looking at the

> verse. With some variations the same doubt arises for

> the references too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and

lay it on us.

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> Thank you very much all leanred and respected members for your

kind input.

> I hope I can convince my friend that he was wrong.

> with pranams

> mani

 

Dear Mani-ji,

 

When I invoked 'google dEvatA' for answers for your question, :-))

it fetched following post by someone in a forum dedicated to

hinduism. Hope it will be of some interest to you and other memebers

here.

 

" From Where does this desire to know Brahman, (HIM) come?

Some thoughts from Swami Krishnanda that I found inspiring.

Perhaps your thoughts here will advance the idea:

 

" Isvaranugrahad-eva pumsam advaita vasana, " says the great master

Dattatreya.

 

" There is something higher than this knowledge or aspiration for

truth. What is that? It is the tendency of one's being to move

towards Reality. It is the very reason behind our aspiring for

Reality. How do we know that Reality is to be known? Who put this

idea into our head? We say, " I must know God, " " I must search for

Reality, " " I must aspire for the Absolute. " How did this idea arise

in our mind? "

 

" There is a tendency in us to move towards the Reality. This

tendency is prior to our consciousness of Reality. We cannot be

conscious of this urge itself, because it is prior to everything

else, even becoming conscious of anything. Nobody knows what this

urge is and from where it comes. " Isvaranugrahad-eva pumsam advaita

vasana, " says the great master Dattatreya. We do not know how

aspiration arises in our mind. It has not come due to our efforts,

because effort cannot be there without knowledge. But the question

is, " How has this knowledge arisen? " So Bhagavan Dattatreya says

that perhaps it is God's grace, or we may call it the grace of the

Absolute, or the mysterious outcome of the very process of evolution

which is egged on by some principle of which we have no idea and the

purpose of which is far, far beyond our understanding. "

 

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=579

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Namaste and thank you Br Vinayakaji.

What you mentioned is sufficient " proof " that Grace is a must for any

knowledge and particularly for Self Knowledge. I shall convey what you said to

my friend.

With kind regards and Hari Om

Mani

 

 

 

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maniji:

 

You have indeed triggered a divine discussion on God's grace !

Actually god's grace is reflected through one's Guru! For God is

guru and vice versa! But for those of you who do not have a guru ,

please do not despair ! Pray to Lord Dakshinamurthy and he will send

you the Human guru through his infinite grace !

 

Pray thus !

 

bhuurambhaa.nsyanalo.anilo.ambaramaharnaatho himaa.nshuH pumaan.h

ityaabhaati charaacharaatmakamidaM yasyaiva muurtyashhTakam.h .

naanyatkiJNchana vidyate vimR^ishataaM yasmaatparasmaadvibhoH

tasmai shriigurumuurtaye nama idaM shriidakshiNaamuurtaye ..

 

He, whose subtle and unmanifest eightfold form causes the moving and

unmoving universe, and by whose grace alone does all these

manifestationdisappear to reveal that `All that exists is Brahman' -

to that Dakshinamurti,who is embodied in the auspicious Guru, I

offer my profound salutations.

 

http://members.tripod.com/saran/ssdakshina.htm

 

Lord Dakshinamurthy will lead you that Living Teacher!

 

regards

In advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> Namaste and thank you Br Vinayakaji.

> What you mentioned is sufficient " proof " that Grace is a must

for any knowledge and particularly for Self Knowledge. I shall

convey what you said to my friend.

> With kind regards and Hari Om

> Mani

R. S. Mani

>

>

>

> Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel

today!

>

>

[Guest guest]

In case of Teervatam Shaktipath (extreme grace) Guru's initiation hardly

matters.

 

Pranam!

 

Virendra

 

 

bhagini_niveditaa <bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

Maniji:

 

You have indeed triggered a divine discussion on God's grace !

Actually god's grace is reflected through one's Guru! For God is

guru and vice versa! But for those of you who do not have a guru ,

please do not despair ! Pray to Lord Dakshinamurthy and he will send

you the Human guru through his infinite grace !

 

Pray thus !

 

bhuurambhaa.nsyanalo.anilo.ambaramaharnaatho himaa.nshuH pumaan.h

ityaabhaati charaacharaatmakamidaM yasyaiva muurtyashhTakam.h .

naanyatkiJNchana vidyate vimR^ishataaM yasmaatparasmaadvibhoH

tasmai shriigurumuurtaye nama idaM shriidakshiNaamuurtaye ..

 

He, whose subtle and unmanifest eightfold form causes the moving and

unmoving universe, and by whose grace alone does all these

manifestationdisappear to reveal that `All that exists is Brahman' -

to that Dakshinamurti,who is embodied in the auspicious Guru, I

offer my profound salutations.

 

http://members.tripod.com/saran/ssdakshina.htm

 

Lord Dakshinamurthy will lead you that Living Teacher!

 

regards

In advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> Namaste and thank you Br Vinayakaji.

> What you mentioned is sufficient " proof " that Grace is a must

for any knowledge and particularly for Self Knowledge. I shall

convey what you said to my friend.

> With kind regards and Hari Om

> Mani

R. S. Mani

>

>

>

> Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel

today!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Behnji,

Thank you for your very nice mail.

Whenever I hear or think of God’s Grace, I remember a beautiful line of a

Malayalam song on Lord Ayyappa, very gracefully sung by Yesudas. It says

“Aadhikalum vyaadhikalum akattitum ayyappante aseervadam vazhineele

ozhukinilke”

Meaning:

The Grace of Lord Ayyappa, Remover of aadhikal, i.e. all anxieties and

worries, and vyaadhikal, i.e. all vyadhaas, i.e. pains and afflictions to body,

mind and intellect, flows everywhere.

The Grace flows everywhere and all the time. We do not recognize and

acknowledge it.

Sometimes I wonder is it necessary for one to invoke God’s grace as it already

flows abundantly everywhere. We only miss it.

Maybe one can invoke His grace only for recognizing this fact.

Dakshinamoorthi Sthrotram is my most favorite one. I had the blessing of being

one of the students who were taught in great detail this prkarana grandha, more

than twice by the disciples of Swami Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda quite

some time ago. I have also heard many a time Swami Dayananda Saraswati quoting

and singing “Naana chidra ghatodarasthita mahaadeepa prabhabhaswaram” and

“raahugrastha divaakarendru sadrushaha” and explaining them during many of his

lectures.

Your post immediately brought back to my memory, my sitting before these great

Teachers and listening to them. Thank you very much.

With warm regards,

Mani

 

 

 

 

bhagini_niveditaa <bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

Lord Dakshinamurthy will lead you that Living Teacher!

 

regards

In advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

 

 

 

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