bAdha

[Guest guest]

Namaste all followers of this thread,

 

It occurred to me in this discussion of bAdha/sublation that the prime

examples of its working viz. dream and confusion, can have their own

distorting effect. We need to distinguish between manner and matter,

between the act of sublation and that which is being sublated. Because of

the examples of sublation that are the analogy for the ultimate sublation

happen to deal with the unreal, we may be nudged into thinking, that this

relative state when sublated upon our achievement of a realisation of the

absolute, will be likewise unreal, fantastical, and without substance.

 

As we have seen, bAdha stresses that the state that is sublated is not

thereby annihilated but continues to exist, preserved if you like, with a

different understanding of its nature. If we focus on the activity of

sublation rather than the matter that is sublated then counter intuitive

and incredible positions about the status of the world for the jnani may

be avoided.

 

This is the thinking behind the Tripura Rahasya's statement:

.... " I say that you do not understand the advaita sastra; nowhere do the

sastras declare the jagat to be unreal. But yet they proclaim advaita to

be certain. Srutis such as " He became all " , Only the non-dual Supreme

Being shines as the universe " , declare the jagat to be real and thereby

non-duality is not impaired. Though the town reflected in a mirror seems

distinct yet it cannot exist without the mirror and so is no other than

the mirror; in the same manner the jagat though seeming distinct is no

other than the Supreme Self. So non-duality is unimpaired. " (pg.240)

 

Jagat is sublated on realisation. Our understanding of what it is alters

radically. The acts of sublation that we are offered as analogies have as

their matter dream and confusion but we ought not to let that fact alter

our view of creation. What creation is for the jnani is beyond the

dichotomies of reason.

 

Perhaps the members will know of other authoritative texts which take a

similar view as Tripura Rahasya.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Michaelji !

 

Briliiant! By quoting Triopura Rahasaya( An Advaita cum Shakta

doctrine ) , you have clinched the issue on 'bAdhA' ! Michaelji ,

did you know that the 'Tripura Rahasya ' was a favorite treatise of

Sri Ramana Maharishi and it was translated into English by Sri

Munagala Venkataramaiah (now Swami Ramanananda Saraswathi).

 

Michaelji , my favorite chapter is of course 'Vidya Gita '

(chapterXX ) which is the bible of Sri Vidya UPSAKAS/ UPASIKAS!

 

may i now quote ?

 

" Now let me turn round and question the Vedantists - Q.: Is negation

indescribable or real? If the former, jagat cannot be negated; if

the latter, duality results. Nor can you maintain that negation of

the phenomenon resolves itself as the substratum so that the

negation of Jagat results in its substratum, Brahman. Of course to

admit the non-self-looking negation is simply included in the Self

and the whole jagat is nothing but the Self, is not opposed to our

view. But negation is negative in character and it cannot be said to

resolve itself into its substratum - the Reality. The jagat can be

established to exist according to the dictum - the non-self is also

the Self. The point is only to gain purushaartha by whatever means -

negation or any other. It is useless to engage in disputes. 'The

mumukshu' and the 'sadhakas' are warned not to enter into

controversies with other systems or religions. "

 

http://sss.vn.ua/tripura1.htm.

 

Michaelji - Navaratri is about to begin - These nine days are

dedicated to the Worship of Devi , the transcedental Consciousness !

 

i will now be devoting my time to Reading Durga saptashati for the

next 10 days or so .... please let me take leave of you all on this

note!

 

Yaa Devi Sarva Bhuteshu Shakti Rupena Sanstitha ! Namastasyaii

namastasyaii ! om namo namaha!

 

 

 

 

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

>

> Namaste all followers of this thread,

>

> It occurred to me in this discussion of bAdha/sublation that the

prime

> examples of its working viz. dream and confusion, can have their

own

> distorting effect. We

[Guest guest]

Namaste Micheal-ji,

 

On 11/10/2007, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

> As we have seen, bAdha stresses that the state that is sublated is not

> thereby annihilated but continues to exist, preserved if you like, with a

> different understanding of its nature. If we focus on the activity of

> sublation rather than the matter that is sublated then counter intuitive

> and incredible positions about the status of the world for the jnani may

> be avoided.

 

The above is actually quite obvious if there were to be such a thing

as jivanmukti. The mukta eats, drinks, teaches, writes, etc. In other

words, he interacts with the world. If the world were to be simply

annihilated, such interaction would not be possible.

 

The mukta rides the waves of maya without fear because he knows that

this maya is nothing but brahman.

 

>

> This is the thinking behind the Tripura Rahasya's statement:

> ... " I say that you do not understand the advaita sastra; nowhere do the

> sastras declare the jagat to be unreal. But yet they proclaim advaita to

> be certain. Srutis such as " He became all " , Only the non-dual Supreme

> Being shines as the universe " , declare the jagat to be real and thereby

> non-duality is not impaired. Though the town reflected in a mirror seems

> distinct yet it cannot exist without the mirror and so is no other than

> the mirror; in the same manner the jagat though seeming distinct is no

> other than the Supreme Self. So non-duality is unimpaired. " (pg.240)

 

It appears that the above is taken from the English version of the

Tripura Rahasya published by Ramanashramam. This statement comes in

the appendix which looks like a commentary added by the translator. I

suppose it is not a part of the Tripura Rahasya per se.

 

Of course that does not take away from the validity of the statement.

 

I might add that the English version referred to above contains a lot

of comments and notes by the translator which, if the reader is not

careful, might be construed as being part of the basic text.

 

Ramesh

[Guest guest]

A very profound and enjoyable thread. My pranams to all the contributors.

 

Pondering on the person “engaging” in the sublation may help better understand

the sublation itself.

 

Is this a mithya jiva sublating a mithya jagat to discover a Satyam Brahman

OR

A mithya Ishwara or mithya Mayadevi removing the dark veils of and uncovering

Her own Transcendent Satyam

OR

A Satyam Atman sublating a mithya jiva-jagat-ishwara trinity and discovering its

Self to be “non-sublatable”?

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 

 

" S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri

 

Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:41:03

To:advaitin

bAdhA

 

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

 

In his bhAshya on brahma sUtra 2.2.29 Sri Sankara says: bAdhyate hi

svapnoplabdham vastu pratibuddhasya---- The things seen in dream are

sublated on waking up. The case of the rope-snake is similar to dream

objects. Both are prAtibhAsika. The rope snake is realized to be unreal and

is not seen any more when the rope is known. The term 'bAdha' is used for

the rope-snake. So why can it not be used for dream objects? prAtibhAsika

and vyaVaharika are both mithyA. The dream state is also part of the

vyAvahArika plane and the objects that appear are all prAtibhAsika. The

waking state too is in the vyAvahArika plane and some objects that appear in

this state, like the rope-snake, have prAtibhAsika reality, while others

have vyAvahArika realty.

 

There is of course a difference, as you have pointed out. The dream objects

disappear completely on waking up. But on realization the world continues to

be seen, only no reality is attached to it by the jnAni. This is explained

in vedAntic works in two ways. One is the example of the crystal looking red

in the vicinity of a red flower. Even after one realizes that the red colour

is due to the flower, the crystal continues to look red as long as the

flower is there. In a mirage, even after one has gone close to it and found

out that there is no water, it will again look as if there is water there if

he looks at it again from a distance, but now he knows the truth and will

not rush towards it for water. In these two cases the adhyAsa is with

upAdhi, the upAdhi being the red flower in the first case and the sunlight

in the second, which makes the sand look like water. Similarly the mind,

which is the upAdhi still continues after realization and so the jnAni

continues to see the world of duality, but he is not affected because his

mind is free from likes and dislikes. In the rope-snake example there is no

upAdhi and so the snake disappears as soon as the rope is known. This is the

difference between sopadhika adhyAsa and nirupAdhika adhyAsa. Another

explanation is that vikshepaSakti continues for the jnAni and so he sees the

world, but since there is no AvaraNa he is not affected like others. This

has ben said by Swami Chandrasekhara Bharati in his commentary on

VivekachUDAmaNi. THere is a lot of discussion in vedAntic works on whether

avidyA continues after jnAna. The general view is that there is avidyA-leSa

or trace of avidyA. This is another subject.

 

Please let me know your views on these points.

 

S.N.Sastri

 

I don't think you can apply the term to dreams. When we wake up, the dream

is realized to have been unreal. Rather, you apply it in the waking world

where things are not unreal but mithyA. Therefore it is possible to have a

better, clearer understanding of them. When we realize that objects are not

separate entities but simply name and form of brahman, the objects do not

disappear. Instead, the old understanding is sublated by the new.

 

I guess that what I am saying is that the concept of bAdha is only

meaningful in vyavahAra; it simply does not (cannot) apply to pratibhAsa.

(This is not to say that you could not have a bAdha 'experience' within the

dream itself, of course.)

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

 

advaitin , shyam_md wrote:

 

Dear Sri Shyam,

Your statement, " Pondering on the person " engaging " in the

sublation may help better understand the sublation itself " ,

contains the answer to the three questions that have been asked.

My God! What an ingenious way to turn the one engaged in bAdha

back to himself to realize/cognize that PARAMARTHA SATYA which

transcends sublation and which is one's own TRUE SVARUPA ! You have

spoken like a Zen Roshi.

 

My heartiest congratulations and heartfelt thanks to you for the

the wonderful posting of yours which has provided a very deep insight

into the doctrine as well as the methodology for realizing the

Sublime Truth Of Advaitha Vedanta.

 

Ever yours in The Divine,

Sreenivasa Murthy