Shankara and SSS .....

[Guest guest]

Bhaskar prabhuji :

 

You know , my cyber son, your cyber mataji is a firm believer in

Guru Tattwa - so why would She ever do Guru nindaa ? The point i

was trying to make was Adi shankara bhagvadapada said so many divine

and wonderful things but somehow you managed to find this ONE QUOTE

(Shankara, following the verdict of dharma shAstra clearly says

shUdra is not supposed to listen to vEda maNtra-s, if at all he

does that *boiling lead *should be poured into his ears & vaidika

should not recite vEda maNtra when shUdra is there beside

him..etc..) "

ON vaidika dharma and post it here in this great group dedicted to

so called Shankara's ADVAITA PHILOSOPHY!

 

The same adi shankara also wrote the divine Manisha Panchakam

wherein he stated that

 

brahmaivaahamidaM jagachcha sakalaM chinmaatravistaaritaM

sarvaM chaitadavidyayaa triguNayaa.asheshhaM mayaa kalpitam.h .

itthaM yasya dR^iDhaa matiH sukhatare nitye pare nirmale

chaaNDaalo.astu sa tu dvijo.astu gururityeshhaa maniishhaa mama ..

 

and our most learned Shastriji gave a wonderful translation of the

above verse and said " A person who has realized that he is brahman

is worthy of being worshipped as a guru, whatever may be his origin.

( chandala ) This implies that any one in any varna or even those

outside any varna can get brahmajnAna !

 

So if A guru can be a chandala , why cannot a shisya be a chandala ?

and a chandala is a 'dog eater ' !

 

Prabhuji , in your zeal to promote YOUR OWN GURUJI AND HIS WORKS ,

ON MANY AN OCCASSION YOU HAVE SOWED SEEDS OF DOUBT about the great

jagadguru Shankara bhagvadapada! some years ago , you also mentioned

that there is not one Shankara but many shankaras ! there is only

one Acharya and there is ONLY one Adi shankara and make no mistake

about it , please!

 

if you can be so devoted to SSS , WHY SHOULD I NOT DISPLAY THE SAME

REVERANCE TO THE JAGADGURU ? AFTER ALL , HE IS THE 'FATHER' OF

ADVAITA!

 

and please stop this bussiness about personal and impersonal ! When

anyone comments about Lalla , Tagore or Rumi adversely , i also

feel 'violated ' - for me , all these personalities are my very own

self ! AND PRABHUJI YOU CALLED SRINIVAS 'HAWK LIKE ' - how is that

not a personal comment ?

 

bhaskarji, i know where you come from and you know where i come

from - we are trying to prove the same thing ! You are saying why

cannot SSS' works be discussed in this group and i am also saying

why cannot Lalleshweri poems be posted if a link on 'shaking handfs'

can be posted ? Shaking hands is a symobolic gesture of showing

friendship ! Similarly , when virenderaji posts Lalla's poems , he

wants to share his 'kinship ' with the rest of us kindred spirits !

 

Anyway , another year is coming to a close .... The Saga

continues ....

 

But the big question is still unanswered :

 

Are there more than one 'Advaita' PHILOSOPHY ?

 

What is Shankara's Advaita philosophy ? May be our learned

Shastriji will clarify - he is the one most qualified to do so !

what is non -shankara advaita philosophy ?

 

The learned members in this group think only Shankara's bhasyas and

prakarna granthas are valid - they are willing to ignore all the

other great works of Shankara bhagvadapada including the Soundarya

lahari and other stotras on gods and goddesses !

 

Prabhuji , i love your energy and enthusiasm in defending SSS BUT

PLEASE ALLOW ME ALSO THE SAME LIBERTY to adore and worship adi

Shankara bhagvadapada ! In due course of time , adi dhankara

bhagvadapada will bestow 'jnana' on me ! i don't even need to read

any of his bhasyas and granthas ! If ADI SHANKARA BHAGVADAPADA COULD

SHOW 'COMPASSION' TO TOTAKA, HE WOULD DEFINITELY COME TO MY RESCUE

ALSO !

 

guru pungava pungava kEtanatE

samatAmayatAm nahi kOpi sudhIhi |

saraNAgatavatsala tattvanidhE

bhavasankara dEsikamE saraNam ||

 

Oh, Best of Teachers ! Supreme Lord Who has the sacred bull as His

banner ! None of the wise Ones is equal to Thee! Thou are

compassionate to those who take refuge in Thee! Thou treasure chest

of Truth! Be Thou my refuge, Oh, Master Sankara!

 

hAVE A WONDERFUL FOUR DAY CELEBRATION and kindly provide the

reference for that statement on Vaidika dharma without fail as

requested by my friend Paiji!

 

Hari Om !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> Bhaskar prabuji writes :

>

> (Thanks for giving me that liberty prabhuji...Yes, for me, Sri SSS

> is the reincarnation of bhagavadpAda himself..he is abhinava

> shankara & purusha saraswati..but I wont force anybody to accept

> it...that I've already said.)

>

> bhagini mAtAji :

>

> How can you force anyone to accept that SSS is reincarnation of

> Shankara Bhagvadapada ?

>

>

[Guest guest]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

 

A person who has realized that he is brahman is worthy of being worshipped

as a guru, whatever may be his origin.

( chandala ) This implies that any one in any varna or even those outside

any varna can get brahmajnAna !

 

> Yes, any person (who is not a dvija) can achieve the ultimate

irrespective of his/her cast, creed or gender...Smruti, purANa & itihAsa

texts are there for them to achieve the desired result...shankara never

ever denies the mOksha to non-dvija-s. Referring to vidhura, dharmavyAdha

shankara says jnAna & its resultant mOksha is one and the same for all the

varNa-s (jnAnasya aikAntika phalatvAt) and non-dvijAs can achieve this by

doing itihAsa purANa shravaNa. But his decision about *vEdAdhikAra* is

quite clear in his conclusion that " vEda pUrvakastu nAsti adhikAraH

shUdrANAm *iti sthitaM* "

 

Prabhuji , in your zeal to promote YOUR OWN GURUJI AND HIS WORKS ,

ON MANY AN OCCASSION YOU HAVE SOWED SEEDS OF DOUBT about the great

jagadguru Shankara bhagvadapada! some years ago , you also mentioned

that there is not one Shankara but many shankaras ! there is only

one Acharya and there is ONLY one Adi shankara and make no mistake

about it , please!

 

> Actually in kanchi saMpradAya it is believed that there were 5 different

shankara-s (bAla shankara, mUka shankara etc.) one of them is the author of

sUtra bhAshya, another one wrote shruti bhAshya, someone else among among

these shankara-s has written various dEva/dEvi stOtra-s....this has been

mentioned by late prof. S.K. Ramachandra Rao in his book Shankara & adhyAsa

bhAshya. This has nothing to do with Sri SSS & his works.

 

Are there more than one 'Advaita' PHILOSOPHY ? What is Shankara's Advaita

philosophy ? May be our learned

Shastriji will clarify - he is the one most qualified to do so ! what is

non -shankara advaita philosophy ?

 

> If you are not talking about the advaitic *ultimate reality* & talking

about the doctrinal issues involved in advaita vEdAnta, yes, there were

somany advaita matA-s which hold the brahmaikatva jnAna but differs in

methodology of teaching or siddhAnta pratipAdanaM. For example, bhAgavata

mata & pAshupata mata, though ultimately they advocated brahmaikatva

jnAna, shankara refuted their doctrinal view points in sUtra bhAshya.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Welcome back Prabhuji !

 

You write

 

(shankara never ever denies the mOksha to non-dvija-s. Referring

to vidhura, dharmavyAdha shankara says jnAna & its resultant mOksha

is one and the same for all the varNa-s (jnAnasya aikAntika

phalatvAt) and non-dvijAs can achieve this by doing itihAsa purANa

shravaNa. )

 

Of course not ! That is why Adi shankara is called 'Acharya ' -

there is only one Acharya ! When we say Acharya , we are only

referring to Adi Shankara Bhagvadapada , not SSS , NOT

CHANDRASEKHARA BHARATI , NOT EVEN KANCHI MAHAPERIYAVAAL !

 

THEN YOU WRITE

 

( But his decision about *vEdAdhikAra* is quite clear in his

conclusion that " vEda pUrvakastu nAsti adhikAraH

shUdrANAm *iti sthitaM* " )

 

True ! but , 'adhikaratwam' has changed with the changing times ! we

are not living in Gurukulam ! We are living in a global world .

PLease tell me Bhaskar PRABHUJI , is not 'Sanyasa' A prequisite for

a student of vedanta ? By Sanyasa is not meant 'sanyasa' of mind -

By Sanyasa is meant , Sanyasa ASHRAM ! lEAVING THE FAMILY AND

DONNING OCHRE ROBES AND RETIRING INTO A SECLUDED PLACE , LIVING ON

ALMS AND UNDER A TREE AND ONLY WEARING A LOIN CLOTH ! Prabhuji , if

you apply this yardstick strictly , we lose our 'adhikaratwam'

instantaneously !

 

who is Sri Ramachandra rao ? Please write to me in private about Sri

Rao ! also write to me about your paramaguru SSS and his works - so

i can also learn to appreciate him better ! after all , all gurus

are to be revered even Madhavacharya and Ramanujacharya !

 

There may be many Shankaras BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE ACHARYA - and he

is Jagadguru and all other Shankaras are only his 'extensions' !

Anyday , i believe in Kanchi mutt than other mutts !( sringeri mutt

included) Paramacharya is someone whose lotus feet i worship !

There is always a difference between a Rajarishi and a brahmarishi!

smile :-)

 

Prabhuji : you still not have given the reference where you quoted

Shankara about 'hot' lead being poured into the ears of a shudra !

Since my posting , a learned member( whom i worship) wrote off list

to me and advised me that Shankara was only quoting from from

dharma sutras to show that Sudras should not read or even hear

veda ! This is in e bhashya of Brahmasutra 1.3.38. Gautama sutra

says that if a sudra hears the veda his ears should be filled wih

molten lead. It is further said in the bhashya that if a sudra

chants the vedas his tongue should be cut off.

 

To say the least , this is horrible and we should not even be

repeating or quoting Shankara bhagvadapada on these things ! Adi

shankara bvhagvadapada taught the timeless and eternal philosophy of

ADVAITA OR NON-DUALITY ! THE ONLY ADHIKARATWAM NEEDED IS THE

YEARNING AND LONGING TO KNOW THE TRUTH! caste , gender , etc is of

no importance ! Prabhuji , i beg you not to quote these out dated

views in this international forum dedicated to Advaita ! please !

thank you!

 

on another note , i would like to quote swami paramarthanandaji's

views on 'veda adhyayanam ' ( scriptural studies)

 

" Both the buddhi and reasoning are of two types - the buddhi and

reasoning that is based on perceptual (nonscriptural) data and the

buddhi and reasoning that is backed by scriptural data.

Sankaracharya says (not only in this commentary but in his other

works also) that whenever we say atma is beyond the buddhi or atma

gnanam is beyond the buddhi, it means it is beyond non scripture-

backed buddhi. So we do require a buddhi or intellect to know the

atma. And what type of buddhi is it? It is scripture-backed buddhi.

In his commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, Sankaracharya says in the

second chapter that the only instrument that can give atma gnanam,

is the buddhi. The Upanishads also point out that with the help of

the mind alone must atma gnanam be gained. This subtle atma has to

be known by the buddhi alone.

 

Is reasoning required for the vedanta? Sankaracharya points out that

reasoning is very much required because the buddhi cannot receive

anything without reasoning. The intellect will not accept that which

is irrational to us. Therefore Sankaracharya says we can never give

up reasoning because the buddhi accepts only that langauge.

Sankaracharya also clarifies that whenever we talk about reasoning,

it is not the reasoning of the tarka shastra because it is not

backed by shruti. So if any guru tells us to drop our intellects and

reasoning, he is a non-traditional guru. A traditional guru will ask

us to retain our buddhi and reasoning. And for how long must we

retain these faculties? Until the end. With the buddhi and reasoning

supported by the scriptures, we have to gain atma gnanam That is why

he say gnanam is gained by shastra vichara or enquiry. Shastra

vichara has three aspects. Vichara conveys the importance of buddhi

and tarka (logic). So the three aspects are shastra, buddhi and

tarka. Knowledge is an intellectual process that happens because of

shastra vichara. "

 

so , Jay ! APPROACH A GURU WHO IS WELL VERSED IN SCRIPTURES and do

not worry about whether he is a brahma jnanii ! Just make sure he

is 'sampradayavit' or belongs to a genuine parampara !

 

Jay , i know you are a tamizh bhakta - most tamilians do not read

Vedas -as it is in Samskritam ! but , there are other Tamiizh

scriptures available which are equally divine ! many of my sri

lankan friends do that !

 

Atma jnana is not the monoploy of sanskrit knowing people ! It is

availble to one and all ! Sri Ramana maharishi was not a sanskrit

scholar ! Kabir dasji was an atma jnani - he did not read the

vedas !

 

love and regards

[Guest guest]

praNAms mAtAji

Hare Krishna

 

True ! but , 'adhikaratwam' has changed with the changing times ! we

are not living in Gurukulam ! We are living in a global world .

 

> true, but we are talking about *what_bhagavatpAda_said about

vEdAdhikAra* is it not?? At the time of shankara there were no printed

versions of vEda texts, no Vedic C.D.s & websites, those who have adhikAra

could learn vEda-s through traditional gurukulaM only...And in gurukulaM,

there were no excuses to violate the strict adherence to the verdicts of

dharma shAstra...Hence, shankara, talks about the *existing practice* at

his time & said sUdra / non-dvija-s are not eligible to do vEdAdhyayana.

 

PLease tell me Bhaskar PRABHUJI , is not 'Sanyasa' A prequisite for

a student of vedanta ?

 

> not really, you can refer shankara's chAdOgya shruti bhAshya, in that

he says even gruhasthA-s are also very much eligible to attain brahma

jnAna...as you know janaka, yAgnAvalkya, vidhura etc. are gruhasthA-s but

jnAni-s...

 

who is Sri Ramachandra rao ? Please write to me in private about Sri Rao !

 

> You asked this same question when I first said there were 5 different

shankara-s :-)) & I had provided the link which gives details about him,

his works & achievements. Kindly search the archieves :-)) By the way,

Prof. S.K. Ramachandra Rao was heading the *kalpataru saMshOdhana kEndra*

here in Bangalore, shrungEri dakshiNAmnaya shankara mutt branch, which was

exclusively dedicated to do research work with regard to shankara & his

works...

 

Prabhuji : you still not have given the reference where you quoted

Shankara about 'hot' lead being poured into the ears of a shudra !

 

> Kindly refer shankara's sUtra bhAshya on apashudrAdhikaraNa...refer

shankara bhAshya from 1-3-34 to 1-3-38 & tell me what is there against what

I said earlier.

 

Since my posting , a learned member( whom i worship) wrote off list

to me and advised me that Shankara was only quoting from from

dharma sutras to show that Sudras should not read or even hear

veda ! This is in e bhashya of Brahmasutra 1.3.38. Gautama sutra

says that if a sudra hears the veda his ears should be filled wih

molten lead. It is further said in the bhashya that if a sudra

chants the vedas his tongue should be cut off.

 

> Kindly think why shankara particularly in this context giving gautama

sUtra as *reference* to prove that sUdra does not have vEdAdhikAra...If at

all he is favouring & endorsing sUdra's vEdAdhikAra, he would have not at

all taken this sUtra as reference in his commentary...is it not??

 

 

To say the least , this is horrible and we should not even be

repeating or quoting Shankara bhagvadapada on these things !

 

 

> I dont see any valid reason for this statement.

 

 

Adi shankara bvhagvadapada taught the timeless and eternal philosophy of

ADVAITA OR NON-DUALITY ! THE ONLY ADHIKARATWAM NEEDED IS THE

YEARNING AND LONGING TO KNOW THE TRUTH! caste , gender , etc is of

no importance ! Prabhuji ,

 

 

> your declaration holds good only in respect of brahma

jignAsa....irrelevant to dharma jignAsa.

 

 

i beg you not to quote these out dated

views in this international forum dedicated to Advaita ! please !

thank you!

 

 

> It is not fair on your part to say that shankara's sUtra bhAshya as out

dated views just coz. it is not saying what you want :-))

 

 

on another note , i would like to quote swami paramarthanandaji's

views on 'veda adhyayanam ' ( scriptural studies)

 

 

> mAtAji, let us not digress, we are discussing here on what shankara said

on vEdAdhikAra...Let us stick to it...If you have anything from prasthAna

trayi bhAshya with regard to this, kindly bring it on we shall discuss it

with the help of scholars in this list.

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar