What will it be like?

[Guest guest]

Some members may know that I have a Question and Answer section at my

website. Visitors ask questions and I try to answer them. I thought this

question that I have just had might be of particular interest:

 

 

 

" I enjoyed reading your extensive website (and have a couple of your books).

I wanted to ask what happens when the body dies? I also wanted, as best I

can, to focus this question in the following way. Presently there is

awareness of all sorts of sensations: thoughts, feelings, all manner of

things. When I sleep there is no awareness (apart from dreaming). There is

nothing...... is this what is to be expected at death? "

 

 

 

Here is how I answered:

 

 

 

" As usual with questions of this nature, it depends on the standpoint you

are trying to take. The absolute reality is that there is no world, no

creation, no persons etc. separate from brahman. There is only ever brahman;

nothing changes or happens.

 

 

 

But clearly what you are trying to do is to ask the question from the

standpoint of vyavahAra; the standpoint of ignorance and identification with

the idea of being a separate person. From this vantage point, advaita offers

the explanation of reincarnation according to the law of karma. The subtle

body takes up residence in a new body in order to work out its prArabdha

saMskAra. But you have to understand that this explanation is given only to

satisfy the enquiring mind at that level. By analogy, ask yourself what

happens to the dreamer 'I' when you wake up.

 

 

 

The awareness of sensations, thoughts, objects etc. to which you refer

requires a nervous system, brain, senses etc.; i.e. a body. Since this body

ceases to operate at death, those functions will cease. But this all relates

to the waker-I. You are not the waker-I, the dreamer-I or the

deep-sleeper-I. Who you really are - the unchanging brahman, the turIya

that is the background of all the states - is unaffected.

 

 

 

These answers may not satisfy 'you' (the mind) but you are never going to

get a straight answer to the question 'what will it be like?', because

anyone you ask will have to have ears to hear and a voice (or keyboard) to

respond, i.e. they will also be (apparently) living bodies in the seeming

world! "

 

 

 

As a corollary, however, I was wondering if there is anywhere in the

scriptures that deals specifically with the paradox of seeking enlightenment

in order 'not to be reborn'. Most references speak of escaping saMsAra and

rebirth but this is avoiding the full implication.

 

 

 

On the face of it, the only benefit of self-knowledge must be in the

remainder of this life. There is only ever brahman in reality and, from this

pAramArthika standpoint, no one is ever born or dies. This understanding is

given to one who is self-realized but is the truth whether or not the

understanding is there. Who-I-really-am was never born and is not going to

be reborn whether or not that knowledge is realized in a particular mind.

Conversely, brahman is going to continue to appear as names and forms

presumably, assuming that there are mind-forms to perceive them as separate.

Accordingly, one might ask why one should pursue enlightenment if, although

the 'false' I will not be reborn, the real 'I' will continue to appear as

deluded jIva-s.

 

 

 

I appreciate that these are simply ideas playing in the mind but I would be

interested to know of any references where they are discussed. (And it goes

without saying that I would be interested in the thoughts of members, too!)

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennis:

 

" .. is this what is to be expected at death? "

 

Interesting posting... Allow me to post a lighter note on the subject,

more like a kind of shared thought than an answer.

 

The story goes that a couple of twins, still in their mother's tummy,

were discussing about their existence...

One of them ask the other: " Do you think there is life after Birth? " ,

and the other after one minute of reflection answered: " I don't

know.., nobody ever came back from it... "

 

 

pranams to All,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dennisji,

You said:

" But clearly what you are trying to do is to ask the question from the

standpoint of vyavahAra; the standpoint of ignorance and

identification with

the idea of being a separate person. From this vantage point, advaita

offers

the explanation of reincarnation according to the law of karma. The subtle

body takes up residence in a new body in order to work out its prArabdha

saMskAra. "

 

 

I have often read and wondered about this question. Keeping aside the

Paramarthika standpoint, and operating ONLY in the realm of Maya; is

there a prescribed " mechanism " for this process? Let me elaborate.

 

The law of karma is described as the process by which the actions of a

jiva are responded back as the reactions on the sukshma sharira. At a

gross level, this is quite evident, as in, a bad emotion let out

results in saddening the mind and vice versa and so on. The karma of

a person, stored in the chitta, thus acts as a giant water body, where

small or large ripples are produced to take the analogy from the Yoga

Sutras.

 

But where does this lead us as far as rebirth is concerned? First,

just like the gross body is evident by gross means, the subtle body

needs to be evident by subtle means. But how subtle are we talking

about here, and is the subtleness only a matter of the size of the

parts of body? How is 'subtleness' defined here? (Or Sukshmatva in

Sanskrit).

 

Secondly, how is this entire ensemble (or the giant water body), with

all its manifest (prArabdha) and unmanifest (sanchita) ripples (karma)

carried forward from one gross body on to another? Plus what is to

guarantee that there is no extra karma accrued during the transition

(which btw is a small difference in the Hindu and Buddhistic rebirth

theories, as far as my limited knowledge goes)?

 

So to summarize my question, a lot has been written in scriptures as

well as the works of various enlightened sages about the effect of

karma, its acting as a cause for next birth and resolving it all to

get out of the life-death cycle. But, what is the " mechanism " of this

rebirth? Since the subtle body is still in the realm of matter, there

has to be a " physical " mechanism for this process.

 

I request the learned members to throw some light on this aspect, as

well as direct me to some references in this regard if possible.

 

And Happy Diwali to all,

Vaibhav.

[Guest guest]

Dennis - I will try to answer this question based on

my understanding. Bri. Up discusses these extensively

and there is also some discussion in Ch. Up. in

prajaapati vidya. B.G. 15 Ch. addresses some aspects

of it. Brahmasuutra ch. 4 also discusses about krama

mukti etc related to the higher fields. Exact

references I do not have on hand.

 

But here is the gist of my understanding.

 

Death is the separation of subtle body along with

causal body from gross body. He is dead and gone is

the proverb - so he has just vacated this body and

left to find a field where his next set of vaasanaas

drive him.

 

As in dream example, the identification with the gross

body ceases and mind projects its own subtle body in

the dream to have dream experiences. The dreamer

thinks that is the real world where he exhausts his

vaasanaas or suppressions and oppressions of his

subtler mind. Dream is a field of exhaustion of his

vaasanaas. In the dream world he has his sense organs

functioning just like in the waking state. Hence

Mandukya provides an exactly parallel description for

the dream world with ekonavishati mukhaH - 19 gate

ways (5 jnaana indriyas + 5 karmaindriyas, 5 praNas -

mind, intellect, memory and ego) he interacts with the

dream world of objects.

 

When he dies, he packs all this subtler equipments -

along with ego and moves to the field where he can

exhaust next set of vaasanaas. These are subtler

fields and according to Vedanta there are 7 higher

fields of experience and 6 lower and counting this

gross field (earth) there are total 14 fields. He

moves to the field governed by the good or bad (merits

or demerits - selfless or selfish or punya/paapa)

where he can experience. The heaven and seven fields

stand for higher fields and the highest is the Braham

loka - where prajaapati resides. From there are two

paths according Vedanta depending on the individual

vaasanaas or karma. He may be eligible for teaching

in Brahma loka where the teacher is none other than

Iswara in the form of iShTa devata where he learns

Vedanta. He may be able to realize the truth at that

stage and this is called krama mukti - a gradual step

by step liberation. If this mind is locked in duality

or dvaita he may have to come back to the earth to

evolve further. Krishna asserts in 6th ch of Gita

that he will be born in a conducive environment where

he can progress rapidly. Hence Krishna says -

bahuunaam janmanaam ante jnaanavaan mam prapadyate,

vaasudeva sarvam it sa mahaatmaa sudurlabhaH - after

many cycle of births and deaths, he will realize the

oneness of the totality and that kind of births are

rare indeed.

 

Prarabda dictates the current birth - what dictates

next field of experience is the aagmaa and sanchita.

 

It is recognized that current serious efforts to

attain the higher have lot more weight in the

determination of the next fields than those that were

buried deep due to previous lives karma - because they

are buried deep. Even though sanchita karma could be

huge, all that can be eliminated by strong and

powerful Vedantic vaasanaas.

 

Another interesting thing is those who are already

exposed to Vedanta - that is the members of this

advaitin list - the seeds for rapid evolution are

already being sowed and depending on the right kind of

fertilizer and water (shravana and nidhidhyaasana),

the realization seed sprouts rapidly and Krishna

assures that such a person, if he is not realized in

this life, will be born soon in a family/environment

that provides a rapid vehicle for his/her growth. If

you read the (auto) biographies of the great souls,

something triggers in their life and their life

pattern takes a completely different route that helps

them evolve rapidly. It is not that they are lucky -

it is only because they had been blessed by the

exposure to the teaching earlier and they have worked

towards their evolution in the past.

 

So the point is nothing comes free - every body has

done their sadhana to purify their mind for the mind

to absorb the reality of the teaching. Similarly

nothing goes waste in this vyavahaara regime of

law-and action.

 

Free will is there until I am free from will.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

> When I sleep there is no awareness (apart

> from dreaming). There is

> nothing...... is this what is to be expected at

> death? "

>

> Here is how I answered:

>

>

> But clearly what you are trying to do is to ask the

> question from the

> standpoint of vyavahAra; the standpoint of ignorance

> and identification with

> the idea of being a separate person. From this

> vantage point, advaita offers

> the explanation of reincarnation according to the

> law of karma. The subtle

> body takes up residence in a new body in order to

> work out its prArabdha

> saMskAra.

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaibhav,

 

There are, of course, countless ways to answer this question. I

wanted to relate one answer, which I find quite intuitive.

 

We normally think of a sukshma sharira travelling through the

physical space, moving from one body to another. However, if we turn

the process around, we get some interesting results. How do we even

know we have a physical body? We only know through the sense organs.

If we could not feel the body, see the body, smell the body, hear the

body, taste the body, we would not even know we had a body. So to be

born in a body or to be born in a specific world essentially means

that a certain set of sensory inputs present themselves to the

sukshma sharira. Death means that the sukshma sharira stops recieving

one set of sensory inputs and rebirth means it starts recieving a

different set of sensory inputs.

 

In this sense, it is exactly like a dream. The cause of any dream is

potential psychological content and based on this latent content, a

certain set of dream circumstances arrise. When the effect of that

potential has been exhausted, that dream ends and another dream

begins. Similarly, death is like the end of one dream and rebirth is

like a different dream world presenting itself to the sukshma

sharira. Here we can see how the mental content is responsible for

the " physical " (which really just means sensory) circumstances that

present themselves to us. So there is no need for a separate physical

mechanism. The difference, of course, is that the dream is projected

in the mind by the mind and has no relation to any other minds - this

is why we do not interact with others jivas in our dreams. However,

the circumstances that we call the waking world are projected on the

mind by the maya-shakti of Ishvara on the basis of our karmic content.

 

I hope this makes some sense and would request other members to

correct me if I have made any mistakes.

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.