What will it be like?

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Vaibhav,

If what you want to know is how the sukshma sarira goes from one body to

another, please see the article " Terms and Concepts in Vedanta' " and the

sub-heading " Transmigration " on the following website:

www.geocities.com/snsastri

 

S.N.Sastri

 

Although it was not Dennisji meant to ask, I would still appreciate if

members could give their views on my question earlier, namely the mechanism

of rebirth vis-a-vis sukshma sharira.

 

Thanks,

Vaibhav.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The quote by SSS, given by Vinayaka-ji below certainly comes closest to

expressing what I was saying. Although it is difficult to put into words, I

don't think that language is the intrinsic problem as Steve seems to suggest

(though I appreciated the humour!). The last sentence of the quotation seems

to sum it up: " The idea that he deals with other egos and that the world

goes on even after his departure is true enough empirically, but it can

never affect reality as it is. "

 

Sastri-ji says: " As I understand, your worry is that even after you get

liberation, there will be millions suffering in this world. That will

certainly be so until the whole world gets liberated. "

 

No, this is not my concern but it does emphasize what I am saying and what

others seem to be trying to refute. From the standpoint of vyavahAra, there

appear to be separate, autonomous jIva-s etc. The jIva believes him/herself

to be separate and limited because Atman, operating through that mind is

ignorant of its real nature and mistakenly identifies with the limited

body-mind form. As a result of gaining self-knowledge, this mistake can be

realized and that mind then knows it is not other than brahman. Still at the

level of vyavahAra, that now-realized body-mind form continues to appear

until the body dies. But that mind now knows (for the remainder of that

embodiment) that there never have been any separate body-minds in reality

and that all the appearances of other bodies are only appearances, actually

not other than brahman. Even so, those other forms continue and the minds in

those forms remain unenlightened. And, more to the point, they continue even

after the body-mind of the now enlightened jIva has died. Sadanananda-ji's

analogy with the dream state is true from the vantage point of the

enlightened but not from that of the unenlightened. (Otherwise, everyone

would have disappeared when the first jIva attained enlightenment.)

 

I think that Sastri-ji's following statement gets to the crux of the matter:

" When you get liberated you will not be 'Dennis as brahman', but brahman

alone will be there as it is there now and brahman will continue to watch

people suffering as it is doing now. It is the subtle bodies that are

already here in some body that will be born again in some other body. The

real 'I', brahman is not what is born. Your statement that the real 'I' will

continue to be born is therefore not correct. "

 

He says that " It is the subtle bodies that are already here in some body

that will be born again in some other body. " This, of course, follows the

traditional teaching of karma and reincarnation, saying that we are

continually reborn until we achieve enlightenment. But the point is that it

is always only brahman appearing as all jIva-s. The fact that X gains

enlightenment does not affect the suffering of all the other jIva-s. As

Sastri says, " That will certainly be so until the whole world gets

liberated. "

 

So, to attempt to return to my original question, when X is liberated, the

identity of X is lost forever but the mistaken identity of other jIva-s

continues. Before X was liberated, there was only brahman, appearing as all

jIva-s and the world. After X is liberated, there is still only brahman,

appearing as all jIva-s and the world. The liberation of X has made no

difference to anything at all other than that the mistaken belief of X that

he or she was separate and limited has gone from X's mind for the remainder

of X's embodiment. Brahman will continue to manifest as ignorant jIva-s

regardless. (This is what I meant by " the real 'I' will continue to be

born " .)

 

I suspect that the reason it is difficult to phrase the question and the

reason people are finding difficulty answering it is that it probably boils

down ultimately to asking why there is this world-appearance at all. And I

accept that this question is unanswerable. Incidentally, I am not actually

'worried' about any of this. My question was whether there was any

scriptural reference where this topic is actually discussed.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

" This pathetic realistic description of one who has realized the

truth betrays a woeful disregard of the two standpoints of view

which a student of the upanishads has constantly to bear in mind.

For, from the transcendental point since all distinctions are

nought, the only reality being brahman, or Atman. From the empirical

view, the jnAni is only one among the other egos, while he is a

miracle in the eyes of the seekers of knowledge. **The experience of

the sthitaprajna described in the gItA can never be exactly defined

in empirical terms**. From the transcendental point of view, there

is no question of the jnAni leaving behind him the body or an

independent objective world, for it never existed for him. The idea

that he deals with other egos and that the world goes on even after

his departure is true enough empirically, but it can never affect

reality as it is. "

 

Culled from the book " How to Recognize the Method of VedAnta. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dennis ji writes :

 

( My question was whether there was any

scriptural reference where this topic is actually discussed.)

 

I don't know if this quote meets with your expectations !

 

" While one is in the state of dream, the golden, self-luminous

being, the Self within, makes the body to sleep, though he himself

remains forever awake and watches by his own light the impressions

of deeds that have been left upon the mind. Thereafter, associating

himself again with the consciousness of the organs of sense, the

Self causes the body to awake.

 

While one is in the state of dream, the golden, self-luminous being,

the Self within, the Immortal One, keeps alive the house of flesh

with the help of the vital force, but at the same time walks out of

this house. The Eternal goes wherever He desires.

 

The self-luminous being assumes manifold forms, high and low, in the

world of dreams. He seems to be enjoying the pleasure of love, or to

be laughing with friends, or to be looking at terrifying spectacles.

 

Everyone is aware of the experiences; no one sees the Experiencer.

 

Some say that dreaming is but another form of waking, for what a man

experiences while awake he experiences again in his dreams. Be that

as it may, the Self, in dreams, shines by Its own light....

 

As a man passes from dream to wakefulness, so does he pass at death

from this life to the next. "

 

 

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.3.11-14, 35

 

Happy Deepavali, Dennisji ! May the Light shine upon you !

 

 

love and regards

 

OM SHANTI! SHANTI! SHANTIHI!

[Guest guest]

here is one more quote i dug up for our Dennisji !

 

Those who go hence without here having found the Soul (Atman) and

those real desires - for them in all the worlds there is no freedom

But those who go hence having found here the Soul and those real

desires - for them in all worlds there is freedom.

Chandogya Upanishad, 8.1.6

 

Om Shanti! Shanti! Shantihi!

 

regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

<bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

>

> Dennis ji writes :

>

> ( My question was whether there was any

> scriptural reference where this topic is actually discussed.)

>

> I don't know if this quote meets with your expectations !

>

> " While one is in the state of dream, the golden, self-luminous

> being, the Self within, makes the body to sleep, though he himself

> remains forever awake and watches by his own light the impressions

> of deeds that have been left upon the mind. Thereafter,

associating

> himself again with the consciousness of the organs of sense, the

> Self causes the body to awake.

>

> While one is in the state of dream, the golden, self-luminous

being,

> the Self within, the Immortal One, keeps alive the house of flesh

> with the help of the vital force, but at the same time walks out

of

> this house. The Eternal goes wherever He desires.

>

> The self-luminous being assumes manifold forms, high and low, in

the

> world of dreams. He seems to be enjoying the pleasure of love, or

to

> be laughing with friends, or to be looking at terrifying

spectacles.

>

> Everyone is aware of the experiences; no one sees the Experiencer.

>

> Some say that dreaming is but another form of waking, for what a

man

> experiences while awake he experiences again in his dreams. Be

that

> as it may, the Self, in dreams, shines by Its own light....

>

> As a man passes from dream to wakefulness, so does he pass at

death

> from this life to the next. "

>

>

> Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.3.11-14, 35

>

> Happy Deepavali, Dennisji ! May the Light shine upon you !

>

>

> love and regards

>

> OM SHANTI! SHANTI! SHANTIHI!

>