What's in a name, anyway!

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Nair,

 

Thank you for pointing out that a jnAni does not feed a cow, etc. I suppose

what you are conveying by this is that he has no identification with the

body and no sense of agency. in what his body does.

One biographer, who obviously is ignorant of the nuances of advaita, has

written that Ramana Maharshi had a favourite cow which he used to

feed.himself. As you say, Ramana had no sense of agency in this. Then how to

express this? Can we say, " Ramana's hand fed the cow? This also would be

wrong because he has no sense of 'mine-ness' with respect to his hand.

Please instruct me as to how to express this. Of course I can avoid talking

about his feeding a cow, but if some body asks me, " What does Ramana say on

this point? " . Should I say " Ramana says nothing, but his tongue has spoken

this? " . Even this is wrong because it is not 'his' tongue. I am therefore in

a dilemma. The only answer I can give is " I do not know " . But some people

have somehow, wrongly, acquired the notion that I have studied Sankara's

works and ask me what Sankara says on a certain point. Your clarification

has put me in a dilemma. I do not know how to answer them.

S.N.Sastri

 

The jnAni being verily one with Brahman has no point of view at all.

He is not in the phenomenal either. He neither feeds a cow nor

addresses anybody to strive for brahma-jnAna. (All these conclusions

are again in the phenomenal, therefore mithyA, belong to ajnAnis, and

have nothing to do with the jnAni.)

 

However, the ajnAnis in the phenomenal do see *jnAnis* (the plural is

again stark ajnAna) performing all the actions mentioned above and

even miracles. That only proves the ever-present existence of Grace

in the vyAvahArika constantly beckoning us to our Homeland.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

A very interesting topic, this and one which seems to be drawing some

apparently contradictory views. Here is my understanding, for what it is

worth.

 

 

 

From the standpoint of paramArtha, there is only brahman. Brahman 'knows'

nothing in the sense that we normally use the word since that would imply

knower-knowing-known duality.

 

 

 

From the standpoint of vyavahAra, brahman 'knows' through the medium of the

body-mind form but, more usually, we view this as the jIva being aware via

the senses and knowing via the mind. Normally, the jIva believes itself to

be separate in an alien world of objects. This misperceiving is the result

of self-ignorance in the mind. With the help of a teacher, shruti etc., it

is possible for this self-ignorance to be eradicated completely so that it

is directly known that 'I am brahman'. This self-knowledge takes place in

the mind at a point in time and is called self-realization or enlightenment.

After this event, the now so-called j~nAnI continues to live out the

remainder of his or her life in that body-mind form but in full awareness

that 'all is brahman'. Nevertheless, this knowledge-awareness is still

brahman functioning through the body-mind form which is also brahman (as it

all always was). There will still be pleasure and pain experienced as a

result of that equipment, even though it is no longer identified as 'my'

pleasure and pain. There will still be communication with others, even

though it is now known that there are no 'others'. And - a point which has

not been mentioned before - if the mind of the j~nAnI should be destroyed or

damaged in some way (e.g. Alzheimer's?), such that the 'knowledge process'

can no longer function, that j~nAnI will no longer 'effectively' be

enlightened. He will still be brahman, as he always was but the mind may no

longer know this.

 

 

 

I would, of course, be interested in further observations upon all of this

but reason seems to dictate that this is essentially how it is.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dennisji observes :

 

(if the mind of the j~nAnI should be destroyed or

damaged in some way (e.g. Alzheimer's?), such that the 'knowledge

process' can no longer function, that j~nAnI will no

longer 'effectively' be enlightened. He will still be brahman, as

he always was but the mind may no longer know this.)

 

Interesting !

 

While it is no doubt true that those affected with Alzheimer's

disease lose their memory - they may even forget the family members'

names. When the disease progresses they may not even rember who is

who among their family and friends. Not onlt that they may forget

their own street adderess and so on .... in course of time , they

forget even who they are !

 

Burt so called normal people ( who do not have Alzheimer's) , who

are in the mode of ignorance , forget who they are to begin with !

ANY PUN INTENDED IS STRICTLY FOR HUMOR!

 

In the case of jnani , there is no question of remembering anything

or forgetting anything ! He always knows his atma swaroopa! I

WONDER IF ANY Indian sage EVER SUFFERED FROM ALZHEIMER'S ! we know

sri ramakrishna paramahamsa had throat cancer ! Sri Ramana bhagavan

also had cancer ! Swami vivekananda had diabetes .... but

Alzheimer's !

 

Anyway, good news for Indians in this group - It is believed

that 'turmeric' is a very good antidote in arresting the progress of

Alzheimer's ! and don't forget to include beta carotene in your

diet - Sources of Beta carotene are sweet potatoes, carrots, kale,

spinach, turnip greens, winter squash, collard greens, cilantro and

fresh thyme!

 

well folks ! Yesterday , i wrote i wish i could forget everything

and start all over ! guess what ! i changed my mind ! i do not want

to ever forget to tsake the name of my ishta nishta in life after

life - one name i don't want to forget is the name of my lord and

beloved Sri Krishna paramatma! one can forget where one keeps one's

car keys , one can even forget one's boyfriend's phone nuumber but

to forget the Lord's name ! No , No !

 

Hare Krishna !

 

ps incidentally, Ms. Subbalaxmi , the renowned musician of Carnatic

music from India , always sang all the songs in praise of all the

gods/goddesses but when she died she was suffering from

Alzheimer's ! how sad!

[Guest guest]

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

a point which has

> not been mentioned before - if the mind of the

> j~nAnI should be destroyed or

> damaged in some way (e.g. Alzheimer's?), such that

> the 'knowledge process'

> can no longer function, that j~nAnI will no longer

> 'effectively' be

> enlightened. He will still be brahman, as he always

> was but the mind may no

> longer know this.

 

Dennis - PraNAms.

 

All your statements are exactly correct. About the

clarification of the last point, here is my

understanding.

When the mind is not functioning either in the deep

sleep state or due to the damage of brain etc, it is

not that jnaani is not enlightened. The understanding

of the mind goes into a potential form. The same

thing happens when jnaani sleeps or even when ajnaani

sleeps. Jnaani sleeps as jnaani and ajnaani sleeps as

ajnaani. The self-knowledge of the jnaani, like all

other knowledge of jnaani or ajnaani, goes into

potential state ready to express when the upaadhis

become available. So jnaani remains as enlightened

while ajnaani remains as ignorant. These aspects are

discussed through various examples in Chandogya Up 6th

Ch.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Sister,

A very good diet chart to reduce the risk of much dreaded Alzheimer's disease in

addition to the oft-given dose of spirirual tonic to the list members!May your

ishta nishta Lord,Sri Krishna Paramatma bless you with the resources to

spread(His message) Gita upadesa among our members for their enlightenment!

Regards,

Jabalimuni

 

 

 

bhagini_niveditaa <bhagini_niveditaa

advaitin

Friday, November 16, 2007 4:11:30 AM

Re: What's in a name, anyway!

 

Dennisji observes :

 

(if the mind of the j~nAnI should be destroyed or

damaged in some way (e.g. Alzheimer's? ), such that the 'knowledge

process' can no longer function, that j~nAnI will no

longer 'effectively' be enlightened. He will still be brahman, as

he always was but the mind may no longer know this.)

 

Interesting !

 

While it is no doubt true that those affected with Alzheimer's

disease lose their memory - they may even forget the family members'

names. When the disease progresses they may not even rember who is

who among their family and friends. Not onlt that they may forget

their own street adderess and so on .... in course of time , they

forget even who they are !

 

Burt so called normal people ( who do not have Alzheimer's) , who

are in the mode of ignorance , forget who they are to begin with !

ANY PUN INTENDED IS STRICTLY FOR HUMOR!

 

In the case of jnani , there is no question of remembering anything

or forgetting anything ! He always knows his atma swaroopa! I

WONDER IF ANY Indian sage EVER SUFFERED FROM ALZHEIMER'S ! we know

sri ramakrishna paramahamsa had throat cancer ! Sri Ramana bhagavan

also had cancer ! Swami vivekananda had diabetes .... but

Alzheimer's !

 

Anyway, good news for Indians in this group - It is believed

that 'turmeric' is a very good antidote in arresting the progress of

Alzheimer's ! and don't forget to include beta carotene in your

diet - Sources of Beta carotene are sweet potatoes, carrots, kale,

spinach, turnip greens, winter squash, collard greens, cilantro and

fresh thyme!

 

well folks ! Yesterday , i wrote i wish i could forget everything

and start all over ! guess what ! i changed my mind ! i do not want

to ever forget to tsake the name of my ishta nishta in life after

life - one name i don't want to forget is the name of my lord and

beloved Sri Krishna paramatma! one can forget where one keeps one's

car keys , one can even forget one's boyfriend's phone nuumber but

to forget the Lord's name ! No , No !

 

Hare Krishna !

 

ps incidentally, Ms. Subbalaxmi , the renowned musician of Carnatic

music from India , always sang all the songs in praise of all the

gods/goddesses but when she died she was suffering from

Alzheimer's ! how sad!

 

 

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you

with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennisji,

 

" And - a point which has not been mentioned before - if the mind of

the j~nAnI should be destroyed or damaged in some way (e.g.

Alzheimer's?), such that the 'knowledge process' can no longer

function, that j~nAnI will no longer 'effectively' be enlightened. "

 

I think the important fact here is that the function of Vedanta is

negative. The appropriate mental vritti destroys ignorance and then

itself dissolves. There is no need for a vritti to be constantly

present forever. In fact, this is impossible because anything that

could have come, (ie: the vritti) would also go away at some point.

 

If we take it in this way, alzheimer's disease has no effect on the

jnani because the jnani's mind may be damaged but ignorance is still

going to be absent. The jnani doesn't need to remember that he is

Brahman, it is just that the very possibility of identifying with

limitation has been completely removed. Of course, if alzheimer's

disease takes place during the process of sadhana, I would imagine it

to be an obstacle to the removal of ignorance. And if the jnani is a

guru, he presumably wouldn't be able to teach, either because she

might forget the teachings.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

<bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

 

 

> In the case of jnani , there is no question of remembering anything

> or forgetting anything ! He always knows his atma swaroopa! I

> WONDER IF ANY Indian sage EVER SUFFERED FROM ALZHEIMER'S !

 

mAtAji,

 

What a question! alzheimer's for a perfected sage! LOL LOL! :-))

 

Anyways, I would like to know such cases if they do exist, et al.

 

Warm Regards,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " bhagini_niveditaa "

<bhagini_niveditaa wrote:

i do not want to ever forget to take the name of my ishta nishta in

life after life - one name i don't want to forget is the name of my

lord and beloved Sri Krishna paramatma! one can forget where one keeps

one's car keys , one can even forget one's boyfriend's phone nuumber

but to forget the Lord's name ! No , No !.......

 

Hare Krishna !namaskarams.

 

when somebody writes about krishna i feel their vibrations in me.

he is with us in this group and he is as advaitam in us.'yo mam

pasyathi sarvathra sarvamcha mayi pasyathi.....'how truly seen in such

writings by all the krishna bhakthas. may lord krishna bless all with

that enlightenment that we seek through these satsanghs.

 

baskaran

[Guest guest]

I think the important fact here is that the function of Vedanta is

negative. The appropriate mental vritti destroys ignorance and then

itself dissolves. There is no need for a vritti to be constantly

present forever. In fact, this is impossible because anything that

could have come, (ie: the vritti) would also go away at some point.

 

praNAms Sri Rishi prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

You are absolutely right in your observation...shankara somewhere gives

kAtaka powder example in bhAshya to explain this...Yes, jnAna vrutti

destroyes ajnAna & in that process that itself gets dissolved after the

*purpose* is served:-))

 

While on the subject, it is interesting to note that shankara in gIta

bhAsya (13.2) puts series of somany interesting questions/observations

with regard to baNdha & mOksha. Here he says, there is complete unanimity

among AtmavAdins that there is no saMsAra or saMsAritva for the liberated

souls (muktAtma-s). (here saMsAra or saMsAritva means baNdha (the state of

bondage)...), but can we say Atma has two different avasthAs like

(baNdhAvasthA and muktAvasthA) pre & post period of liberation?? If the

answer is yes, then either we should say both are present simultaneously or

these avasthA-s come one after another...since bondage & liberated states

are poles apart, we cannot say both are co-existing..So, only second option

remains, i.e. it will come one after another...if that is the case, for

getting into baNdhAvasta there must be either some reason (nimitta) or no

reason...if we say there is no nimitta for bandhAvastha, then it should be

natural (svAbhAvika)...that which is svAbhAvika can not be erased...then

can we say there is no mOksha from bandhAvasTha?? or if we say there is

nimitta for baNdha & mOksha, then we should conclude that these two are not

real & they cannot exist themselves...but we have firm belief that we are

in baNdha..we cannot say that 'this bandha is not there' to those who

strive for mOksha...

 

And again, if we say baNdha & mOksha comes one after another, it is to be

understood that first there is baNdha and then we get mOksha..when we say

like this, then it is obvious that there is baNdha from anAdi kAla and it

is going to *end*at some point of time...but it is pramANa viruddha to say

there is an end (antya) to beginningless (anAdi)..Likewise, if we say

there is a beginning to mOksha & no 'end' that is also pramANa virudda

(tathA mOkshAvasThA AdimatI anathA cha pramANa viruddhaiva

abhyupagamyatE)...Moreover if we say Atma travels from one avasthA (baNdha)

to another avasthA (mOkshA) then it can not be *nitya*...To remove this

*dOsha* from Atman, can we say there is no difference in baNdha & mOksha

states?? if yes, then what is the use of shAstra here??

 

After all these, finally shankara drives home his point that bandhAvasthA

is kEvala avidyAkruta & it is not paramArtha..Atman is ever liberated

one...(avidyAkrutatvAd bandhAvasthAyAScha AtmanOparamArtatvE...

 

Original reading of this shankara bhAshya or some good translation of the

same is even more interesting....I request members to study this bhAshya

part to know shankara's stand on bandha & mOksha...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Dear Rishi-ji and Sada-ji,

 

 

 

This is an interesting point but I could see it in two ways. Ignorance is a

mistaken view or superimposition of a wrong idea (adhyAsa) so that, when the

related knowledge-vRRitti dawns, that ignorance is destroyed forever. Viewed

in this way, it seems one could indeed say that it cannot come back even if

the functioning of the mind is later impaired.

 

 

 

But could one not, using this logic, also say that the avidyA or adhyAsa

would effectively be destroyed by the mind ceasing to function anyway? This

situation would not be the same as sleep since the ignorance would not

return on awakening. As Sri Sadananda puts it:

 

" The self-knowledge of the j~nAnI, like all other knowledge of j~nAnI or

aj~nAnI, goes into potential state ready to express when the upAdhi-s become

available. So j~nAnI remains as enlightened while aj~nAnI remains as

ignorant. " In this case, one might argue that one way to attain

enlightenment would be to contract Alzheimer's because, in this case, the

mistaken ideas would not become available again upon waking up!

 

 

 

But this is clearly silly so that one should rather say, not that the

ignorance does not come back on waking but that the self-knowledge comes

back. But, if we do say this, then should we not concede that this would not

happen for the j~nAnI who has a damaged mind?

 

 

 

'Enlightenment' is of the mind - who-we-really-are is already free.

Therefore, destruction of the mind should effectively destroy enlightenment,

too.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

<<If we take it in this way, alzheimer's disease has no effect on the

jnani because the jnani's mind may be damaged but ignorance is still

going to be absent. The jnani doesn't need to remember that he is

Brahman, it is just that the very possibility of identifying with

limitation has been completely removed. Of course, if alzheimer's

disease takes place during the process of sadhana, I would imagine it

to be an obstacle to the removal of ignorance. And if the jnani is a

guru, he presumably wouldn't be able to teach, either because she

might forget the teachings.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

> Therefore, destruction of the mind should

> effectively destroy enlightenment,

> too.

 

Not so Dennis. Jnaanam involves destruction of the

notional mind. The objective mind remains with jnaani

or with the 'so called' individual, to put it more

correctly.

 

Sleep or coma or any disease that makes the mind

disappear involves the dissappearence of objective

mind for the jnaani and the notional mind for ajnaani.

No, Jnaani just ceases to operate the upaadhis -while

ajnnaani is operating in or with kaarana shariira.

That is all the difference.

 

'yad gatvaa na nivartante taddhaama paramam mama'

'once one is realized there is no returning back' -

says Krishna.

 

Even though the realization is 'akhandaakaara vRitti'

that I am - I am - where the identification that 'I am

the totality' that includes the mind where the vRitti

is taking place - I am is not the mind but the

totality itself - that is the understanding of the

jnaani. Therefore distruction of any upaadhiis

including the mind, is not the destruction of the

jnaanam.

 

In the very realization, the death of ego or the

destruction of notional mind occurs permanently and

what remains is the mind free from all notions. with

the rise of knowledge ' aham aham tayaa spurati hRit

swayam' says Bh. Ramana. 'I am' 'I am' ... thus

raises spontaneously in the mind in the place of 'I am

this' - this I am is paramam, puurNam and sat

swaruupam - says bhagavaan. That is the actual

destruction of the mind or permanent destruction of

the notional mind.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennisji,

 

Here are my thoughts on this issue and I think all of is standard

Vedanta, not anything original.

 

The kind of mental activity we have depends upon the condition of our

physical body (as the example of alzheimer's disease shows), but

physiological states are not a sufficient cause for mental activity

to take place. In addition to the physiological equipment, one also

requires subtle equipment. Our mental activity is, therefore,

dependent upon both subtle and gross causes. According to Vedanta,

insects possess a subtle body but this doesn't mean that they can

reason like human beings. To reason both a subtle body and certain

physiological conditions are required (in this case, a functioning

human body or something similar).

 

If the mind entirely ceases to function because the appropriate

physiological conditions are absent, it is quite possible that

ignorance ceases to manifest in that mind. However, when the

physiological conditions associated with the mind change (either the

body gets fixed or an appropriate new body is acquired according to

one's karma), mental activity can function properly again. When this

happens, ignorance will also manifest again because it has not been

wipied out of the subtle body.

 

Also, keep in mind that the mind doesn't entirely cease to function

because of alzheimer's disease (it is just severely impaired), so in

this specific example, I think ignorance could continue to be

manifest (in the case of the non-Jnani). I am just considering a

hypothetical condition where the mind's functioning is so poor that

ignorance would not be able to manifest at all.

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sada-ji,

 

 

 

Could you please clarify the distinction between 'notional mind' and

'objective mind' - I don't recall having come across this distinction

before. On the face of it, the 'notion' of a mind would itself have to occur

within a (objective) mind. I think I am only aware of the one mind -

antaHkaraNa - consisting of chitta, buddhi, manas and ahaMkAra. I assume

this is the 'objective' one. In which case, what is the 'notional' one?

 

 

 

You say: " Even though the realization is 'akhandaakaara vRitti' that I am -

I am - where the identification that 'I am the totality' that includes the

mind where the vRitti is taking place - I am is not the mind but the

totality itself - that is the understanding of the jnaani. Therefore

distruction of any upaadhiis including the mind, is not the destruction of

the jnaanam. " I agree that the understanding of the j~nAnI is that 'I am not

the mind but the totality itself' but is that understanding not itself in

the mind?

 

 

 

Apologies if I am being obtuse about this!

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>>

> What a question! alzheimer's for a perfected sage! LOL LOL! :-))

>

> Anyways, I would like to know such cases if they do exist, et al.

 

Namaste,

 

This may be pertinent:

 

http://www.tatfoundation.org/bio.htm

 

Richard Rose, 88, of Benwood, author, poet, philosophic authority and

friend, died at 5:50 a.m. Wednesday July 6th at the Weirton Geriatric

Center after a ten-year battle with Alzheimer's. Decades earlier,

when he was a young man, Rose had written a short poem that someone

later would ask whether it was about his own death or not. Rose's

matter-of-fact reply was, " Oh, sure. " The poem is called I Will Take

Leave of You. He is survived by his wife and children, grandchildren,

great-grandchildren and truly, a host of friends.

 

I will take leave of you

Not by distinct farewell

But vaguely

As one entering vagueness

For words, symbols of confusion

Would only increase confusion

But silence, seeming to be vagueness,

Shall be my cadence

Which someday

You will understand.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

> Dear Sada-ji,

>

>

>

> Could you please clarify the distinction between

> 'notional mind' and

> 'objective mind' -

 

Dennis - I will present a complete analysis of the

mind for the benefit of all. This should have been

part of my Introduction to Vedanta. Any way I will

post soon with separate heading.

 

Hari Om!

Sada

[Guest guest]

From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

Who is Jnani ?

 

Mantra 3-2-9 of Mundakopanishad and the commentary on the same by

Sri Shankara is as follows:

 

sa yO vai tat paramaM brahma vEda brahmaiva Bavati ||

He who knows the Supreme Brahman verily becomes Brahman.

Commentary:

saH yaH kaScit ha vai lOkE tat paramaM brahma vEda

sAkShAt ahamEvAsmIti jAnAti sa nAnyAm gatiM gacCati |

brahma vidvAn brahmaiva Bavati ||

Translation: (by Swami Gambhirananda)

saH yaH kaScit ha vai, Any one who, in this world; vEda, knows; tat,

that; paramaM brahma, supreme Brahman, directly as ` I am verily

Brahman'; he does not follow any other course. One who knows

Brahman, bhavati, becomes; brahama Eva, Brahman indeed.

[ Mundaka; 3-2-9]

The above excerpt should help the reader to understand and draw

right conclusions about Jnani.. Whenever one writes or talks about a

Jnani, he should always keep in mind the above excerpt.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Sastri-ji.

 

You have chosen to totally ignore the following opening para of my

post and quoted the rest!

 

QUOTE

 

Yes. Accepted if we all agree that what you have pointed out is *an

ajnAni's point of view of a jnAni in/from the phenomenal*.

 

UNQUOTE

 

I didn't ask you to stop expressing in the phenomenal. We all do and

can do that bearing in mind what I said above. We don't have to hold

a brief for biographers who are not familiar with the nuances of

advaita. Our concern is advaitins.

 

As far as I am concerned, I am the only subject. The rest all,

including the jnAnis that seem to perambulate in the phenomenal, are

my objects. The phenomenal, including my BMI, is an objective field

which I have cast and spread. On self-realization, it is folded back

into me. Rather, it resolves into me without separation. Then there

is no world there outside for me to transact with, strut about in,

teach and emancipate. This applies to each one of us, basically non-

different from one another, appearing as separate entities here in

the phenomenal.

 

Learned members here seem to think otherwise. That is the crux of

the problem.

 

I have nothing more to say.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

________________________

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Nair,

>

> Thank you for pointing out that a jnAni does not feed a cow, etc. I

suppose

> what you are conveying by this is that he has no identification

with the

> body and no sense of agency. in what his body does.

> One biographer, who obviously is ignorant of the nuances of

advaita, has

> written that Ramana Maharshi had a favourite cow which he used to

> feed.himself. As you say, Ramana had no sense of agency in this.

Then how to

> express this? Can we say, " Ramana's hand fed the cow? This also

would be

> wrong because he has no sense of 'mine-ness' with respect to his

hand.

> Please instruct me as to how to express this. Of course I can avoid

talking

> about his feeding a cow, but if some body asks me, " What does Ramana

say on

> this point? " . Should I say " Ramana says nothing, but his tongue has

spoken

> this? " . Even this is wrong because it is not 'his' tongue. I am

therefore in

> a dilemma. The only answer I can give is " I do not know " . But some

people

> have somehow, wrongly, acquired the notion that I have studied

Sankara's

> works and ask me what Sankara says on a certain point. Your

clarification

> has put me in a dilemma. I do not know how to answer them.

> S.N.Sastri

______________

 

Madathil Nair wrote:

>

> The jnAni being verily one with Brahman has no point of view at all.

> He is not in the phenomenal either. He neither feeds a cow nor

> addresses anybody to strive for brahma-jnAna. (All these conclusions

> are again in the phenomenal, therefore mithyA, belong to ajnAnis,

and

> have nothing to do with the jnAni.)

>

> However, the ajnAnis in the phenomenal do see *jnAnis* (the plural

is

> again stark ajnAna) performing all the actions mentioned above and

> even miracles. That only proves the ever-present existence of Grace

> in the vyAvahArika constantly beckoning us to our Homeland.

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

 

> But this is clearly silly so that one should rather say, not that

the

> ignorance does not come back on waking but that the self-knowledge

comes

> back. But, if we do say this, then should we not concede that this

would not

> happen for the j~nAnI who has a damaged mind?

>

>

>

> 'Enlightenment' is of the mind - who-we-really-are is already free.

> Therefore, destruction of the mind should effectively destroy

enlightenment,

> too.

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

 

If I am correct, this the exact reason why sri shankara calls both

vidyA and avidyA as objects of the mind just like colors etc. In

states like samadhi/sushupti etc., there is absolutely no scope for

either enlightenment or error. So sages say that realization is an

act of waking state.

 

Shankara while commenting on the katha Upanishad, says that the

state of mind just before plunging into samAdhi is important. Here

purvapakshin says that brahman does not exist, since he cannot be

congnized through mind and hence yoga is useless. But shankara says

that, though in yoga intellect gets dissolved, just before its

dissolution, it will be pregnant with the idea of existence. There

lies the key difference between sleep and yoga. Hence yoga is useful.

 

We can ask one question here. Sri Krishna says that the journey of

the jiva is dependent on the last thought which predominates at the

time of death. Where will the jnAnis and ajnAnis go if they die when

they are in coma? Somewhere I remember reading that they go as per

the thoughts in their mind just before they enter coma. Since the

jnAni's state of enlightenment is irreversible he surely attains

nirvaNa because he is firmly established in the self and in the

case of ajnAni, he is bound to go according to his thoughts just

before entering coma.

 

Comments and corrections from other members are welcome.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dennis-ji.

 

Kindly see within [ ].

____________

 

> From the standpoint of vyavahAra, brahman 'knows' through the

medium of the body-mind form but, more usually, we view this as the

jIva being aware via the senses and knowing via the mind. Normally,

the jIva believes itself to be separate in an alien world of objects.

This misperceiving is the result of self-ignorance in the mind.

 

[The knowing itself is Brahman. " jAnAmIti tameva bhAntam " (That only

shines forth as " I know, I know " ). That forms the basis of the

mahAvAkya " prajnAnaM brahma " . Only the false notion that we know

through the sense-organs needs to be eradicated and this is

effectively done by knowing that the sense organs also belong to

the 'other than me' world of objects. Then, the truth that we are

knowledge even without the sense organs and that knowledge is a

composite of the triad of knower, knowing and known will be

appreciated.]

_________________

 

>With the help of a teacher, shruti etc., it is possible for this

self-ignorance to be eradicated completely so that it is directly

known that 'I am brahman'. This self-knowledge takes place in the

mind at a point in time and is called self-realization or

enlightenment. After this event, the now so-called j~nAnI continues

to live out the remainder of his or her life in that body-mind form

but in full awareness that 'all is brahman'. Nevertheless, this

knowledge-awareness is still brahman functioning through the body-

mind form which is also brahman (as it all always was). There will

still be pleasure and pain experienced as a result of that equipment,

even though it is no longer identified as 'my' pleasure and pain.

There will still be communication with others, even though it is now

known that there are no 'others'.>

 

[The body has effectively been shelved through the knowledge

mentioned above that I am always " I know " without the body. Then,

whose pleasure and pain are we talking about? All the pairs of

opposites of the phenomenal are then no more opposites. Pain is

undesirable and pleasure desirable only when we are anchored in the

body. All the pairs are equally and fundamentlly Consciousness - the

jnAni himself. The mind has gone Universal and is Knowledge. It is

no more a receptacle of likes and dislikes. The ego has run away in

fright. There is no communication either other than the Self knowing

the Self.]

 

________________________________

 

>And - a point which has not been mentioned before - if the mind of

the j~nAnI should be destroyed or damaged in some way (e.g.

Alzheimer's?), such that the 'knowledge process' can no longer

function, that j~nAnI will no longer 'effectively' be

enlightened. He will still be brahman, as he always was but the mind

may no longer know this.>

 

[Alzheimer's, as far as I understand, has an organic cause with locus

in the brain. When the body has already been shelved, what has the

brain got to do with the jnAni whose erstwhile mind has gone

Universal. Of course, the jnAni's disciples would run about carting

his body from this hopsital to that hospital in India, Europe and the

great America. Alzheimer's therefore belongs to them; not to the

jnAni.]

 

[i was in 1991 blessed with the opportunity of being in the presence

of a great disciple of Sw. Shivananda-ji for a few minutes. He was

just a couple of days away from his body's death, which had withered

due to old age. He wasn't able to move about without the support of

his disciples. His hearing and eyesight had almost totally gone and

he was subject to bouts of forgetfulness of senility. (Alzheimer's

was not a very popular term then.). Despite all that, he radiated an

aura of spirituality and wisdom that made all those present there to

fall in instant prostration as he was brought into the room. He

seemed to be enjoying and laughing at the sight of his body dying.

For the ajnAnis assembled there,it was the sight of a jnAni dying in

the phenomenal!]

____________________________

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

hare krishna,namaskarams

 

i have been reading the two threads on the process of transmigration

of the soul and on the prarabda karma of a gnani. without referring to

anybody or their writings i only wonder that for the first part only a

transmigrated soul can answer that,that too before entering in to

another body!! for obvious reasons.as for the second only a gnani

should answer that other than what we have in the scriptures.are there

no gnanis amidst us who can answer or they are not answering because

for them no world exists.or none of the gnani's have written down

their experiances for the future genarations on such subjects.

 

may lord krishna bless us all in our qurries

 

baskaran