Brahmajnani and his prarabdha karma

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Bhaskar,

This is with ref. to your long note, a portion of which is reproduced

below:--

 

" With the light of the above we have to study & understand the quotes from

br.bhashya 1.4.7 & 1.4.10 prabhuji. Shankara, in 1.4.7 says, bhAvinI

pravruttir vAng-manaH-kAyAnAM and jnAna-pravRtti-daurbalyam etc.. In this

case, he says sAdhana-s like tyAga and vairAgya are necessary to counter

the effects of prArabdha karma. Shankara talks about *jnAna

daurbalyaM*...can absolute Atma jnAna become weak under the influence of

karma?? is it acceptable?? But this weakness of jnAna is said for those

whose jnAna is not riped fully, for them manana and nididhyAsana are

necessary.

 

Since it is already getting lengthy, I shall stop after one final quote

from shankara's sUtra bhAshya-1-1-4 with regard to vidEha mukti. Here,

shankara clearly says the jnAni who knows the Atman that is embodied even

while he is in the bodies, changeless among the changeful bodies. For that

matter, Shrutis also says that mOksha transpires *immediately* (jnAna

samakAle) after the dawn of knowledge of brahman.

 

Kindly pardon me for the length of this mail prabhuji...Kindly do correct

me if I said anything bhAshya viruddha...It is indeed my pleasure & fortune

to discuss shankara siddhAnta with your goodself prabhji.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! "

bhaskar

 

Your lengthy arguments create the inpression that I had put forward some

original proposition of my own and that you had discovered many flaws in it.

The fact is that I had merely reproduced extracts from Sri Sankara's bhAshya

which say, in the clearest possible terms,that even after a person attains

enlightment his prArabdha karma continues until it is exhausted by being

experienced. These extracts may be seen at the following website--

 

www.geocities.com/snsastri/vedakarma.html

 

Your objections are therefore against the theories of Sri Sankara himself.

This I am stating only for pointing put that it is not necessary for me to

defend this theory, necause you are as much a follower of Sri sankara as I

am.

Your objections are nothing new. These were put forward centuries ago by

opponents of Sankara, and particularly by Vyasa Tirtha in Nyayamrita. They

have already been abswered by Madhusudana Sarasvati and other Acharyas.

 

It is true that there is some illogicality in Sankara's theory, but he had

to postulate it in order to support his theory of Jivanmukti. If the

prArabdha karma is also destroyed on the attainmentof knowledge, the body

will fall immediately and there can be no Jivanmukta.

The post-sankara advaitins also realized the illogicality of Sankara's

theory, but they we fiercely loyal to him and could not let him down . They

therefore replied to the opponents of Sankara by putting forward the theory

of avidya-lesa, a trace of avidya continuing after enlihjtenment. This is

also illogical and every body knows that. You have take great pains to state

the objections in detail as if to convince me. But these are all well known

to all students of advaita and there is mothing new. So if you are so

inclined,you may go ahead and proclaim that Sankara's theory is wrong and

should be rejected. You may also kindly state what the correct view should

be and the authority, if any, for it, such as your Paramaguru.

It will be a physical strain for me to answer each of the points raised by

you and so I am not attempting it.

S.N.Sastri

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I am really in pain to note that despite giving clarification on my stand

with regard to shankara siddhAnta through personal mail to you, you have

onceagain thought that I am finding faults in shankara siddhAnta itself...I

think there is serious lack of communication skill from my end...Kindly be

noted that I am, as far as possible, to the maximum extent quoting shankara

bhAshya vAkya-s to justify my claims...and also trying to clarify my stand

with regard to reconciliation of seemingly contradictory statements in

shankara bhAshya siddhAnta nirNaya...In that attempt, anywhere, if I said

anything against shankara, I offer my apology & humbly beg the prabhuji-s

of this list to point out the same without getting into personal or

unnecessarily calling my parama guruji in between the discussions.

 

Now to your reply respected Sri Sastri prabhuji :

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

Your lengthy arguments create the inpression that I had put forward some

original proposition of my own and that you had discovered many flaws in

it.

 

bhaskar :

 

No prabhuji, it is not like that..I only tried to putforth my point of view

based on my reading of shankara bhAshya..It is really unfortunate that you

are taking all my comments negatively...

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

The fact is that I had merely reproduced extracts from Sri Sankara's

bhAshya

which say, in the clearest possible terms,that even after a person attains

enlightment his prArabdha karma continues until it is exhausted by being

experienced.

 

These extracts may be seen at the following website--

www.geocities.com/snsastri/vedakarma.html

 

bhaskar :

 

Haven't I tried to explain what would be my problem in understanding of the

same?? haven't I quoted counter shankara bhAshya vAkya-s which just goes

against to the theory of residue of prarabdha karma to jnAni prabhuji??

 

SNS prabhuji :

Your objections are therefore against the theories of Sri Sankara himself.

 

bhaskar :

 

IMHO not so prabhuji...coz. as you said below, I too heavily dependent on

shankara bhAshya itself for my (wrong) view points :-))

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

It is true that there is some illogicality in Sankara's theory,

 

bhaskar :

 

It is really surprising for me to hear this statement from you...did you

really mean it prabhuji??

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

but he had to postulate it in order to support his theory of Jivanmukti. If

the

prArabdha karma is also destroyed on the attainmentof knowledge, the body

will fall immediately and there can be no Jivanmukta.

 

bhaskar :

 

This is what exactly the debatable issue.....I've quoted one of the

references from chAndOgya shruti bhAshya 8-12-1 with regard to sharIra of a

jnAni...sharIramityatra sahEdriyamanObhiruchyatE..............sharIramEva

chAhaM, ityavivEkAtmabhAvaH sasharIratvaM...what's your kind opinion on

that prabhuji??

 

And one more simple question prabhuji, if it were true that for

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

The post-sankara advaitins also realized the illogicality of Sankara's

theory, but they we fiercely loyal to him and could not let him down .

 

bhaskar :

 

Kindly pardon me prabhuji, this is really news to me..do you mean to say

here post shankara AchAray-s have found the *illogicality* in shankara

bhAshya & propagated their own *logical* view just to appease the minds of

dualists!?

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

They therefore replied to the opponents of Sankara by putting forward the

theory

of avidya-lesa, a trace of avidya continuing after enlihjtenment.

 

bhaskar :

 

How about shankara's own statement in sUtra bhAshya 3-3-30 shankara says

samyag darshi-s have burnt even the *seed* klEsha-s which is the cause of

saMsAra...so, kindly tell me how can this samyag darshi or Atma jnAni or

brahman can carry the prArabdha karma??..na hi AtmaikatvadarshinAM Apta

kAmAnAM ehaiva dhagdhAshEShaklEshabIjANAM ArabhdhabhOga karmAshayakshapaNa

vyatirEkENa apEkshitavyaM kiMchidasti...

 

 

Anyway, as you know prabhuji, the propagators of avidyA lEsha themselves

admitted that there is no amsha (part) in avidyA...if avidyA too has parts

why it has not worn out despite endless jIva-s become muktA?? as you know,

this is not dualists objection to nondualism...it is only internal

inconsistency that arised by ascribing avidyA lEsha to jnAni.

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

This is also illogical and every body knows that. You have take great pains

to state

the objections in detail as if to convince me.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, Kindly note I am the last man to put any effort to convince

anybody...just I've written that mail in anticipation of some constructive

response from the scholars like your goodself prabhuji...

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

But these are all well known to all students of advaita and there is

mothing new. So if you are so

inclined,you may go ahead and proclaim that Sankara's theory is wrong and

should be rejected.

 

bhaskar :

 

I am afraid, this is completely irrelevant remark from your side

prabhuji...

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

You may also kindly state what the correct view should be and the

authority, if any, for it, such as your Paramaguru.

 

bhaskar :

 

again, I am not able to understand why you are unnecessarily bringing my

paramaguruji here...have I said anywhere this is my paramaguruji views

which contradicts shankara's view but logical one & hence everyone should

accept it etc..

 

SNS prabhuji :

 

It will be a physical strain for me to answer each of the points raised by

you and so I am not attempting it

 

bhaskar :

 

That is OK prabhuji, I can understand your concern...and I am not

compelling you to take strain..but I humbly request you to dont drag my

paramaguruji's name in the middle of the discussion...Ofcourse, I admit

that I've not yet completed even 5% of his works...There is every

possibility that I might have misread him..Noway, I can claim that I am an

authorised representative of Sri SSS's prakriya. But he is paramaguruji,

coz. I've studied bhAshya from his direct disciple.

 

what I am trying here is to get my doubts clarified in this august forum

of great scholars ....if you think that is an unpardonable sin & thinking

that I am finding flaws in shankara siddhAnta itself...what should I say in

reply prabhuji?? kindly tell me...

 

My humble prostrations to your lotus feet onceagain,

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Bhaskar.yr

 

namaskaram Bhaskarji,

 

The topic is indeed interesting and I am for one to love to know more.

 

Instead of sending a private mail, would it not be nice if you post your views

on this site ? Does that any way affect or matter ? Would that not be more

educative to all ?

 

I hope you will kindly post that analysis of yours in this site so that we all

can read from that point and then read Shastriji's view etc so that the study is

continuous.

 

namaskaram

 

 

 

bhaskar.yr wrote: Humble praNAms

Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I am really in pain to note that despite giving clarification on my stand

with regard to shankara siddhAnta through personal mail to you, you have

onceagain thought that I am finding faults in shankara siddhAnta itself..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

As a moderator, I request the discussion to center on

issue rather than personalities.

 

Shree SSS has published extensively on Advaita and if

His opinion counts on this issue then that should be

pointed out, otherwise not. Issue is not if a given

achaaraya is guru or parama guru etc since that would

not make a difference from the point of the topic of

discussion. This is again a general statement not for

immediate response on personal grounds.

 

Bhaskarji - When I made a statement that Shakara

doesnot contradict himself and his bhaashyas have to

be understood from what reference he is making a

particular statement - that is a general statement You

immediately send a mail asking me when you have stated

that Sankara made contradictory statement. The

discussion is not about you or about Shree SSS or

any other aachaarya per se. We respect all achaaryas.

The discussion is on the topic and that is all that

counts.

 

Now logically it makes no sense to me to say that

jnaani has prarabda karma. This is very simple and

straight forward since jnaanam involves dropping the

notion of doership and enjoyership. So if a statement

is made that jnaani has prarabda karma, from what

reference that statement has been made has to be

understood. From vyaavahaarik dRiSTyaa there APPEARS

to be BMI that jnnani SEEMS to possess. For the

ajnaani, jnaani is suffering or enjoying due to

prarabdakarma. But from Jnaani's point, BMI's

suffering or enjoyment is only adhyaasa or

superimposition. He 'sees' the BMI is undergoing

natural process but He being a seer different from the

seen, he has no prarabdakarma. BMI is product of

praradbakarma and it will continues until all that is

exhausted.

 

It is simple and straight forward and I do not see

any problem as long as we understand the two

references where the discussion can be made. Hence my

statement - Shankara does not contradict himself (not

that you said this or others said this) If there is an

apparent contradiction that has to be correctly

resolved from the point of advaita - paaramaarthika

and vyaavahaarika references.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote: #38174

>

>

> Now logically it makes no sense to me to say that

> jnaani has prarabda karma. This is very simple and

> straight forward since jnaanam involves dropping the

> notion of doership and enjoyership.

 

Namaste,

 

In the metaphor used by Sri Ramana, sanchita, prarabdha, and

agami karma-s are like three wives of the Ego! They become widows at

the same time when the Ego dies (jnana dawns), not at different times!

(Talks - p. 349).

 

Regards,

 

Sunder