Mechanical and organic

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Sampath,

Your answers to Vaibhav's questions are absolutely correct and to the point.

I was expecting this from you.I find it a physical strain to type out long

answers on the computer and so I did not attempt to reply.

You are not such a novice as you claim out of modesty.

With best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Paramhamsaji,

 

I will reply to your post on Tanmatras in that thread, and hence will omit all

discussion about Tanmatras in this one.

 

> Your point about karma: Kindly remember that Karma is not a material thing to

be stored. It is only a figurative usage of the storage of karma phala.

It simply denotes that a jIva is bound by his actions.

 

It is not in the exact sense as a gross body stores substances like

solids, fluids and chemicals. Karma is not something made up of

matter(tanmAtras) . It is simply a " Law " that binds jIva. Hence it need

not bring any change in the tanmAtras.

 

My reply: I agree Karma is a law by which a jiva is bound, but it still doesnt

mean that it has to work like magic. Sure, you and me are perhaps not fit to see

it in action, but surely there were jnAnis, like Ramakrishna Paramhansa who

could see a person's karma without any effort. So, it means, karma is a quality

of the jiva, or rather of the subtle body, which can be changed, improved or

completely removed by conscious actions.

 

>You said: This is answered by the acceptance of other kinds of bodies

like that made up of Water etc. taking up which the jIva either enjoys

in heavens or suffers in hells. Further, except earthly plane, no

other plane is considered as karma bhUmi hence the jIva doesn't

acquire any new karma in its journey after death. dEvAs are not bound

by the law of karma in the sense that for whatever karma they do, they

are not bound by its results. Their existence in that particular body

is only for the purpose of enjoyment and when the karma which was

responsible for their dEva form gets exhausted, they take birth on

earth again with a remnant of either good or evil karma according to

which they get their births on earth.

 

My reply: If a jiva can use up all its karma in a higher plane, what stops it

from taking up new karma? If karma can be exhausted, then why is it not accrued?

For each of these questions, the functioning of karma is necessary to be

described.

 

 

 

Finally, to sum up all arguments in a nutshell, the way you describe karma is as

if it is a blackbox, where it is impossible to know what is exactly happening.

Or, in other words, it is accepted that there is a correlation between a

person's actions and the results he gets, but further investigation into how the

actions are stored; and how they fructify is somehow not possible. This position

does not fit with the rest of Vedanta which is very rigorous as far as logic is

concerned.

 

So far, the only theory I know of which can explain the way the Karmic principle

can act is through the modification of subtle body. Just like when one is hit by

a rod, one gets bruised, every action one does has a subtle effect of the subtle

body, which, when the right time comes is fructified. Sure there have to be

deeper things happening in this simplistic process, but that is the general

overview. This logical position makes more sense than saying that karma is only

a figurative concept (which somehow stops further investigation in the matter).

 

If there is any other theory by which how the karmic principle acts can be

explained, please describe it.

 

Also, is there a reference in the Sruti which states that the subtle body of a

jiva is immutable throughout its life and during transmigration? I ask this only

because you seem to be very particular about that position and have been so in

our earlier discussion on Orkut.

 

Hari Om,

~Vaibhav.

 

 

 

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

Dear Vaibhav ji,

 

You Wrote: I agree Karma is a law by which a jiva is bound, but it

still doesnt mean that it has to work like magic. Sure, you and me are

perhaps not fit to see it in action, but surely there were jnAnis,

like Ramakrishna Paramhansa who could see a person's karma without any

effort. So, it means, karma is a quality of the jiva, or rather of the

subtle body, which can be changed, improved or completely removed by

conscious actions.

 

My Reply: Kindly note that your arguments are similar to those of

Buddhism and pUrvamimAmsa which leave no scope for ISvara who is the

ultimate bestower of all fruits of karma. We need not worry about the

magical process behind this. pUrvamimAmsakAs propose an unseen force

called " apUrva " which they say is the necessary link between karma and

its phala. They say that apUrva is a " qualification " or a power of the

doer. It is just like we say that a person is qualified to enter a

higher standard in School because he got passed in the lower standard.

Similarly, for whatever karma a person does, he gets a potency or an

unseen connecting link called apUrva, that serves as a medium for the

production of results. All this they have done to ignore the concept

of ISvara and to disagree with the fact that a uniform God can be the

bestower of all types of effects, says SrI Sankara.

 

SrI Sankara in his Brahma sUtra bhashya iii.2.38-41 takes up this

issue and says in iii.2.41,

 

" The final conclusion then is that the fruits come from the Lord

acting with a view to the deeds done by the souls, or, if it be so

preferred, with a view to the apûrva springing from the deeds. This

view is proved by the circumstance of scripture representing the Lord

not only as the giver of fruits but also as the causal agent with

reference to all actions whether good or evil. Compare the passage,

Kau. Up. III, 8, 'He makes him whom he wishes to lead up from these

worlds do a good deed; and the same makes him whom he wishes to lead

down from these worlds do a bad deed.' "

 

## Although SrI Sankara allows the cry babies(pUrvamImAmsakAs) to

assume the existence of apUrva, he declares solidly in the sUtra.38

that there is no proof to say that apUrva exists !!

 

Reference:

Nor in the second place. have we the right to assume that the fruit

will, at some future time, spring from the so-called supersensuous

principle (apûrva), which itself is supposed to be a direct result of

the deed; for that so-called supersensuous principle is something of

non-intelligent nature, comparable to a piece of wood or metal, and as

such cannot act unless moved by some intelligent being. [**And

moreover there is no proof whatever for the existence of such an

apûrva.**]

 

## bAdarAyaNa seems to attempt at bringing pUrvamImAmsakAs into right

track rather than disproving them entirely. After all they were the

followers of his own disciple, Jaimini. :-))

 

## I wanted to seriously point out here that Vedanta differs strongly

from Buddhism and pUvamimAmsa in accepting ISvara behind the dispense

of the fruits of karma. Hence, ISvara is the witness for all our deeds.

-

-

 

You Wrote:: If a jiva can use up all its karma in a higher plane, what

stops it from taking up new karma? If karma can be exhausted, then why

is it not accrued? For each of these questions, the functioning of

karma is necessary to be described.

 

My Reply: As you know very well, when there is a conflict between

reason and Sruti, Sruti alone has to be taken as correct. The reason

has to be rejected(if it is contradicted by Sruti) however lofty it

may be. No where in Sruti it is mentioned that the departed souls

acquire new karma in other worlds. Hence such a claim is unfounded.

Further, at many places in scriptures it is stated that the earthly

plane is karma bhUmi. Even Swamiji says at many instances that the

earthly plane alone is karma bhUmi.

 

-

 

You Wrote:

 

> Finally, to sum up all arguments in a nutshell, the way you describe

karma is as if it is a blackbox, where it is impossible to know what

is exactly happening. Or, in other words, it is accepted that there is

a correlation between a person's actions and the results he gets, but

further investigation into how the actions are stored; and how they

fructify is somehow not possible. This position does not fit with the

rest of Vedanta which is very rigorous as far as logic is concerned.

 

My Reply: Vedanta is very rigorous as far as logic is concerned, yes

true. But SrI Sankara himself says that ISvara is omnipotent and he

can do it. You may, for your convenience bring apUrva into picture but

behold, it is unfounded with respect to Sruti, says SrI Sankara.

----

 

You Wrote: So far, the only theory I know of which can explain the way

the Karmic principle can act is through the modification of subtle

body. Just like when one is hit by a rod, one gets bruised, every

action one does has a subtle effect of the subtle body, which, when

the right time comes is fructified. Sure there have to be deeper

things happening in this simplistic process, but that is the general

overview. [[*This logical position makes more sense than saying that

karma is only a figurative concept**]] (which somehow stops further

investigation in the matter).

 

My Reply: As we accept, ISvara, our theory is more justified on

logical grounds.

-----

You Wrote:

> If there is any other theory by which how the karmic principle acts

can be explained, please describe it.

>

> Also, is there a reference in the Sruti which states that the subtle

body of a jiva is immutable throughout its life and during

transmigration? I ask this only because you seem to be very particular

about that position and have been so in our earlier discussion on Orkut.

 

My Reply: In Brahma sUtra 4.2.8. SrI Sankara interprets the sUtra,

" tadApItEH samsAravyapadESAt " as,

 

tat = The aggregate of elements(sukshma sharIra)(continues to exist);

apiteH = up to the (final absolute) union (with Brahman);

samsAravyapadESAt = on account of the declarations of the samsâra

state (made by scripture).

 

In his bhAshya he writes: " tat tEja Adi bhUtasUkshmam

SrotrAdikaraNASrayabhUtam apItEH AsamsAramOkSAt samyakjnAna nimittAt

avatishthatE " . -- Those subtle elements--heat and so on--which

constitute the abode of hearing and the other organs persist up to the

'union,' i.e. up to final release from the samsâra, which is caused by

perfect knowledge.

 

 

## This being SrI Sankara's stand, we find in sarva-sAra upanishad:

 

What is Subtle body? -- That which, owing to its proximity to the

Self, appears as imperishable and is attributed to Atman, is called

the Linga-sharira (subtle body), and the " heart's knot " . The

Consciousness which manifests itself therein is called the Kshetrajna,

Knower of the Kshetra (body).

 

 

## Finally I think these discussions should have some bearing on the

description of the process of re-incarnation which should differ from

Buddhism. SrI Sankara refutes the kshanikavAdAs(who argue saying " All

existence is momentary " ) by saying that a person when sees an object

for the second time never doubts whether it was Himself who has seen

the object earlier or someone else. Hence the " I-ness " that reveals

the jIvatman is proved to be existent which re-incarnates as per the

law of karma. Hence re-incarnation is not an illusion even from the

vyavahArika reality.

 

!! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !!

 

SAMPATH.

 

>

> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

 

Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

 

Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

Sankara.

(vide. vEdOcchAraNE jihvAcchEdaH, dhAraNE SarIra bhEdA iti.-- His

tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut

through if he preserves it).

 

And I thought that this birth of mine should be spent only with

itihAsAs and purANas as ordained by SrI Sankara.(Vide. SrAvayEt

chaturOvarNAn iti cha itihAsa purANAdhigamE

chAturvarNyasyAdhikArasmaraNAt -- Smriti, moreover, declares that all

the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the

itihAsAs and purANAs).

 

But finally, it was your translation of manIsha panchakam that reached

me somehow which has inspired me to acquire brahmajnAna and I am here

today. :-)

 

!! Jai Shankara !!

 

Yours

SAMPATH.

======================

> Dear Shri Sampath,

> Your answers to Vaibhav's questions are absolutely correct and to

the point.

> I was expecting this from you.I find it a physical strain to type

out long

> answers on the computer and so I did not attempt to reply.

> You are not such a novice as you claim out of modesty.

> With best wishes,

> S.N.Sastri

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

>

> ## This being SrI Sankara's stand, we find in sarva-sAra upanishad:

>

> What is Subtle body? -- That which, owing to its proximity to the

> Self, appears as imperishable and is attributed to Atman, is called

> the Linga-sharira (subtle body), and the " heart's knot " . The

> Consciousness which manifests itself therein is called the

Kshetrajna,

> Knower of the Kshetra (body).

>

>

> ## Finally I think these discussions should have some bearing on the

> description of the process of re-incarnation which should differ

from

> Buddhism. SrI Sankara refutes the kshanikavAdAs(who argue

saying " All

> existence is momentary " ) by saying that a person when sees an object

> for the second time never doubts whether it was Himself who has seen

> the object earlier or someone else. Hence the " I-ness " that reveals

> the jIvatman is proved to be existent which re-incarnates as per the

> law of karma. Hence re-incarnation is not an illusion even from the

> vyavahArika reality.

>

> !! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !!

>

> SAMPATH.

>

Sri Sampath Ji,

 

Thanks for more detailed explanation.

 

Have few doubts though! Is there " duality " in the subtle body during

transmigration (atleast for a hypothetical observer). That is, two

subtle bodies that belonged to two Gross Bodies, will they remain two

during transmigration?

 

Also, is " karma " individual in nature? that is, the there any thing

like the collective " karma " . Some thing like, though I stay green,

Global Warming of the human species do effect me, the individual.

 

Obviously I am looking for statements in the Sruti and in its

interpretations.

 

Thanks

 

Sudesh

[Guest guest]

Shree Sampath - PraNAms- you seems to be more

qualified to be a brahman than many of us. Your

determination to learn vedanta was eye opener for all

of us.

 

In early 90s a swami stayed in our house for nearly

two months and we used to have a great sat sangh

everyday. Before he left our house, he informed us

that he was muslim in his puurvaashrama. Although some

of his followers left him after knowing his past, we

embraced him with love and admiration.

 

Unfortunately he passed away after few years ago due

to some brain tumer. He left a note to his disciple to

call us and inform us and to thank us for taking care

of him during the crucial part of his life.

 

We are blessed to meet so many great souls during our

journey in this life.

 

We bow down to your simplicity and erudition.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- paramahamsavivekananda

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

 

> advaitin , " S.N. Sastri "

> <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

> sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

>

> Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a

> born shUdra,

> hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to

> bAdarAyaNa and

> Sankara.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

> advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote:

>

> Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

> sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

>

> Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

> hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

> Sankara.

 

hare krishna, namaskarams

dear shri sampatth,

 

you are alredy acknowledged in this group as well qualified in the

field of vedanta.in this 21st century the classification of varnas are

already meaningless and proof of that is the many inter caste

marriages taking place and various levels of accomplishments by all

castes in all fields.in another 10 to 15 years it will be a different

new world community.chathurvarnyam in todays context can only be guna

based and you are a guna brahmana in that sense.your life through

ramakrishna mission has already recognised you and one day you would

be a swamiji and writing bashyams too.

may lord krishna bless you.

 

baskaran

[Guest guest]

Namaste dear Sri Sampath:

 

It seems that your parents knew your inborn qualities by naming you

appropriately as " Sampath. " I looked at the online Cologne Digital

Sanskrit Lexicon for the meaning of your name. It provided the

following:

 

sampaTh P. %{-paThati} , to read aloud or recite or repeat (Vedic

texts) thoroughly or continuously Mn. iv , 98.

 

Besides your name, your inborn qualities only determine your

Swadharma according to Sankara in commentary to verse 47 of chapter 8

of Bhagavad Gita:

 

Sankara's commentary on Gita 18:47 (Swami Gambirananda's Translation)

================================

Sreyan svadharmo viguNaH paradharmAt svanushthitAt

savbhAvaniyataM karma kurvan nA'pnoti kilbisham

Better (to do) ones own dharma (even) imperfectly than another's

dharma perfectly.

When actions prescribed by one's own nature are done, one surely does

not get any sin.

Svadharmah, one's own duty;

vigunah, though defective (the word though has to be supplied)

sreyan, superior to, more praiseworthy than;

paradharmat, another's duty;

su-anusthitat, well performed.

Kurvan, by performing;

karma, a duty;

svabhavaniyatam, as dictated by one's own nature-this phrase means

the same as svabhavajam (born from Nature) which has been stated

earlier-;

na apnoti, one does not incur;

kilbisam, sin.

 

It has been said that, as in the case of a worm born in poison, a

person does not incur sin while performing his duties which have been

dictated by his own nature; and that someone else's duty is fraught

with fear; also that, one who does not have the knowledge of the

Self, (he) surely cannot remain even for a moment without doing work.

 

Though there are several interpretations for the above verse but we

should accept the interpretation which is universal and more

appropriate. We are all born with some intrinsic talents and

limitations. Our efforts in life should be to live up to our inherent

aptitudes. We must also recognize the limits of our capacities.

Actions circumscribed by one's inherited abilities define one's

svadharma.

 

Many shortcomings of the Vedic Culture came from inappropriate

perception and interpretation of the Vedic texts and practices. We

have failed to account for the changes in time and space of

reference. We all know that perception does undergo changes - what

was perceived thousand years back can not remain the same and time of

reference is quite important. Vedic learning was introduced to the

children at very young age (five to 7 years) and the inborn qualities

were determined on the basis of the Varna of child's parents. Today,

we shouldn't use the same yardstick to measure the inborn qualities

and they can be observed by other means.

 

You and similarly all members of this list (which include all men and

women consisting of easterners, westerners, southerners and

northerners) do have the inborn qualities of a Brahmin (Jiva with the

thirst of the BrahmaJnana).

 

There is not an iota of doubt in mind to accept you as a True

Brahmin.

 

With my love and warm regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

>

> Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

> hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

> Sankara.