Mechanical and Organic

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Dennis,

 

What Sanpat-ji has said is that when there is a conflict between sruti and

reaoning, sruti alone prevails. But it is accepted that reasoning can and

should be used to understand the purport of the sruti. Manana itself means

applying reasoning to remove doubs about the purportof the sruti. I have

given some extracts from Sankara's bhAshya on the scope of reasoning at

 

www.geocities.com/snsastri/vedatarka.html

 

The passage quoted by you does give the impression that sruti becomes

authoritative only when it is supported by reasoning, but we have to see the

original Sanskrit to see the correct wording. Reasoning is not given an

equal status with sruti. The fundamental principle laid down is that sruti

is authoritative by itself and does not need the help of any thing else to

support it. That is clear from the bhAshya. It can only be used to

understand the sruti correctly. That is why it is said that reasoning which

does not conflict with sruti is alone permissible.

Best wishes,

 

S.N.Sastri

 

 

" (The passing into birth may be real or illusory. Both these views are

mentioned equally in the shruti.)That which is supported by shruti and

corroborated by reason is alone true and not the other. "

 

Is there another reference for the particular situation that you describe?

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

It can only be used to

> understand the sruti correctly. That is why it is said that

reasoning which

> does not conflict with sruti is alone permissible.

> Best wishes,

>

> S.N.Sastri

 

Dear Advaitins,

 

I am giving few more related excerpts for the reference of group

members which are as under:

 

For the comprehension of Brahman is effected by the ascertainment,

consequent on discussion, of the sense of the Vedânta-texts, not

either by inference or by the other means of right knowledge. While,

however, the Vedânta-passages primarily declare the cause of the

origin, etc., of the world, inference also, being an instrument of

right knowledge in so far as it does not contradict the Vedânta-

texts, is not to be excluded as a means of confirming the meaning

ascertained. Scripture itself, moreover, allows argumentation; for

the passages, Bri. Up. II, 4, 5 ('the Self is to be heard, to be

considered'), and Kh. Up. VI, 14, 2 ('as the man, & c., having been

informed, and being able to judge for himself, would arrive at

Gandhâra, in the same way a man who meets with a teacher obtains

knowledge'), declare that human understanding assists Scripture.

Scriptural text, etc., are not, in the enquiry into

Brahman,the `only means of knowledge', as they are in the enquiry

into active duty (i.e. in the Pûrva Mimâmsâ), but scriptural texts

on the one hand, and `intuition' etc., on the other hand, are to be

had recourse to according to the occasion: firstly, because

intuition is the final result of the enquiry into Brahman; secondly,

because the object of the enquiry is an existing (accomplished)

substance.

 

B.S.B. 1-1-2.

 

As Smriti says, 'When the mahâpralaya has arrived and the highest

(i.e. Hiranyagarbha) himself comes to an end, then they all, with

well-prepared minds, reach together with Brahman the highest place.'-

-Another reason precluding the suspicion that true knowledge may be

destitute of its result is that that result is the object of

immediate intuition. In the case of such results of action as the

heavenly world and the like which are not present to intuitional

knowledge, there may be a doubt; but not so in the case of the fruit

of true knowledge, with regard to which scripture says. 'The Brahman

which is present to intuition, not hidden' (Bri. Up. III, 4, 1), and

which in the passage, 'That art thou,' is referred to as something

already accomplished. This latter passage cannot be interpreted to

mean, 'Thou wilt be that after thou hast died;' for another Vedic

passage declares that the fruit of complete knowledge, viz. union

with the universal Self, springs up at the moment when complete

knowledge is attained, 'The Rishi Vâmadeva saw and understood it,

singing, " I was Manu, I was the sun. "

 

B.S.B. 3-3-32.

 

Source: Bharatadesham.com

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Sudesh Pillutla "

<sudeshpillutla wrote:

 

 

Dear SrI Sudesh ji,

 

You Wrote: Is there " duality " in the subtle body during

> transmigration (atleast for a hypothetical observer). That is, two

> subtle bodies that belonged to two Gross Bodies, will they remain

two during transmigration?

 

My Reply: This is a wonderful question you have asked. According to

Scriptures, the subtle bodies remain different just as the gross

bodies. But I see a fantastic insight of yours behind asking that

question. Sruti says that there is creation both at

individual(vyashTi) as well as total(samashTi) levels.

 

SrI SureSvarAchArya in his tattiriya vArtika says that the panchakOSAs

are formed both in the form of asmad(I = Subject) and yushmad(you =

Object) i.e., both in the form of vyashTi as well as samashTi.

 

These panchakOSAs are thus named as:

 

annakOSa - samashTi level; annamayakOSa - vyashTi level.

prANakOSa - samashTi level; prANamayakOSa - vyashTi level.

manOkOSa - samashTi level; manomayakOSa - vyashTi level.

vijnAnakOSa - samashTi level; vijnAnamayakOSa - vyashTi level.

anandakOSa - samashTi level; anandamayakOSa - vyashTi level.

 

Now, a jIva is a " transmigrating entity " . As you know,

pinDAnda(Microcosm) = brahmAnDa(Macrocosm). So, jIva is *not confined*

to any particular plane of existence. This being so, can one jIva see

another jIva transmigrating? This is a serious question. It seems that

a jIva who himself is a transmigrating entity, cannot see the other

jIva re-incarnating. This point has to be contemplated upon.

 

To answer your question, it seems that even jIva srishTi has to be

taken into account. SrI Sankara's point in brahma sUtras that he made

while speaking about the self same soul awaking from sushupti seems to

be very significant. He says:

 

>>>>>Moreover, what is called individual soul is not really different

from the highest Self, so that it might be distinguished from the

latter in the same way as a drop of water from the mass of water; but

as we have explained repeatedly, Brahman itself is on account of its

connexion with limiting adjuncts metaphorically called individual

soul. Hence the phenomenal existence of one soul lasts as long as it

continues to be bound by one set of adjuncts, and the phenomenal

existence of another soul again lasts as long as it continues to be

bound by another set of adjuncts.<<<<<

 

Here, we have to understand that the drop-water analogy cannot be used

to compare jIva-brahman. Simple thing we can say is, " I am brahman, I

am thinking myself as jIva. As long as I think so, I will have

re-incarnation. Because I have been thinking myself as jIva, I have

had past births too. I am considering this world as real. Now what is

this thinking faculty that decides all these things? -- It is but a

vikAra of the universal Mind. To be clear, it is the vyashTi form of

the Cosmic Mind.

---------------------------

 

You Wrote: Also, is " karma " individual in nature? that is, the there

any thing like the collective " karma " . Some thing like, though I stay

green, Global Warming of the human species do effect me, the individual.

 

My Reply: As far as my knowledge goes, no where in Scripture it is

mentioned that karma is collective. It is always spoken of in relation

to an individual. About the example you have cited, it can be said

that, all those who are affected by a common global cause were

destined to suffer in that way due to their individual past karmAs.

 

Hope I have not made the issue more complex.

 

!! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !!

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

 

===============================================

> Sri Sampath Ji,

>

> Thanks for more detailed explanation.

>

> Have few doubts though! Is there " duality " in the subtle body during

> transmigration (atleast for a hypothetical observer). That is, two

> subtle bodies that belonged to two Gross Bodies, will they remain two

> during transmigration?

>

> Also, is " karma " individual in nature? that is, the there any thing

> like the collective " karma " . Some thing like, though I stay green,

> Global Warming of the human species do effect me, the individual.

>

> Obviously I am looking for statements in the Sruti and in its

> interpretations.

>

> Thanks

>

> Sudesh

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

 

Dear SrI Vaibhav ji,

 

> Firstly, I would like to say that you have empirically

> proven the original demarcation of society where one's

> varNa is by one's character, knowledge etc. and not by

> birth; as described in the Vajrasuchika Upanishad. On

> an individual as well as on a social level, such an

> understanding of the ancient varNa system is very

> important.

 

## Thanks for your compliments.

 

> ------------

> Coming to the arguments:

>

> You Wrote:

> I would strongly disagree on this position, since a

> lot of enquiry would be shunned because of it. Rather,

> the correct position should be, whenever reason

> differs from Sruti, it means our understanding of

> Sruti is flawed, and we need to think in terms of

> reconciling both the Sruti and reason.

 

My Reply: I agree entirely by adding a small note that whenever reason

differs from Sruti, it need not always be that the understanding of

Sruti is flawed, but our reasoning also might be flawed.

Again, I feel, we need to strengthen our reasoning in such a way that

it should conform to the Sruti. But we should NOT try to interpret

Sruti in a way as to suit our reason. This would be the best method of

reconciling, I opine.

 

Kindly read the following article of SrI S.N. Sastri ji on his

website: www.geocities.com/snsastri/vedatarka.html

 

--------------------------------

 

You Wrote:

 

> If this were not Sri Shankara's position, he would not

> have defeated the Buddhists in debate, because

> Sruti-pramana is not valid for the Buddhists. As you

> are aware, Buddhism has its own theory of rebirth and

> karma, and Shankaracharya was able to defeat them only

> because he was able to show that Vedanta was nearer to

> truth than their theories. This cannot be done using

> Sruti-pramANa alone (because for it both sides need to

> accept them as infallible).

 

My Reply: Yes, SrI Sankara uses the reasoning that conforms to Sruti

to defeat Buddhists.

-

 

You Wrote:

> So, we need to say that Srutis are infallible, but our

> understanding of Srutis is not. Hence, whenever there

> is conflict between reason and Srutis, reason has to

> be tuned vis-a-vis Srutis.

 

My Reply: Exactly !

 

----

 

You Wrote:

> So, as per Swamiji, Ishvara is simply the sum-total of

> all the individual jivas. Why is such an entity

> necessary? Because, otherwise there is no way of

> ensuring that the same karmic law is applicable

> irrespective of time and place. Ishwara is that entity

> which ASSURES the existence of karmic law. From the

> viewpoint of one soul, IShwara is definitely infinite,

> just like for a single cell, the entire body seems

> infinite.

 

My Reply: Are you sure ISvara is proposed only to explain the

applicability of karmic law? vEdAntins never propose any entity to

explain a process as pUrvamimAmsakAs would do. When we speak of

ISvara, the Omnipotence(sarvakartritvam and sarvashaktitvam) comes

into view.

 

 

You Wrote:

 

Although Ishvara is the bestower

> of karma-phala, he does not do it " automatically " .

> Once we accept that position then we reduce ourselves

> to the position of other religions which have no

> inquiry into the working of the Divine. But Vedanta is

> based on enquiry, where nothing " magical " happens. It

> is this what led Swami Vivekananda to call Vedanta as

> 'the science of religion'.

 

My Reply: Definitely there is nothing magical here. ISvara is the

sAkshin here, the witness of all our deeds. He is also able to bestows

his grace upon us.

 

Leaving ISvara aside, even if you consider the process of karma, I

don't find any reason in saying that the tanmAtras change on doing

karma. anataHkaraNa is spoken of as " dravya " or substance. It takes

different forms every moment. One of my learned friends was saying

that there is a difference of poles between modification and change.

What antaHkaraNa undergoes is a modification but not a change.

-----

 

You Wrote:

> Lastly, both the references you provide about the

> immutability of the sukshma sharira (that of bhASya

> and the sarva-sAra Upanishad) do not say that the

> subtle body does not change. While Shankara says that

> the subtle body " continues to exist " , the Upanishad

> says the sukshma sharira " appears as imperishable " .

> Both do not say or even hint that there cannot be

> changes in the subtle body.

 

My Reply: Kindly note that SrI Sankara speaks of the " aggregate of the

subtle elements " but not just a sukshma sharIra that remains until

pralaya. Again, you have not spoken anything about pUrvapakshin's

argument that tanmAtras are present everywhere and hence, organs need

to take them. SrI Sankara refutes this to say that the Organs do not

take any new elements from outside but they take the same elements

along with them.

---------------

 

You Wrote:

 

> My dear friend, noone here is denying the existence of

> either the jIvAtman or even karma or reincarnation.

> But, from the vyavahArika viewpoint, one needs to

> explain the functioning of the process, like you would

> explain the functioning of any other process. It is

> this functioning I have been asking since the

> beginning of this thread.

 

My Reply: Kindly note some points I have written to SrI Sudesh ji today.

-

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

 

namaskAraH SrI Vinayaka ji,

mahASaya,

 

I remember to have read at different places in vEdAs and mahAbhArata

the procedure of the manes and deities getting satisfied by the

tarpana and havis.

 

It is said that after death, the jIva enveloped by sukshma sharIra

remains as a " prEta " . By offering tarpana, the prEta gains a body

which makes it " pitri " . It reaches pitri lOka, the world of manes. The

food that we offer helps the departed jIva to journey to the pitri

lOka because it does so by means of the body it has acquired from the

food we have offered before. It takes one year for the departed soul

to reach pitri lOka. Even in pitri lOka, the pitri gets satisfied by

the tarpana offered to him by his descendants. All this happens

through a temporary body formed by the offered food but not through

mere sukshma sharIra.

 

I am not able to trace this info to the exact sources properly. I

request the other learned members to help in this matter.

 

Every sort of enjoyment and suffering is only through bodies the jIva

acquires in other planes of existence which are made up of, Air, Fire,

Ether, Water etc.

 

We hear about yAtana sharIra which a jIva is said to acquire to suffer

the tortures in hells.

 

And the deity fire, is said to carry these oblations. The demons are

afraid of Fire and hence they won't interfere in the process of

conveying food to pitris.

 

I shall post more on this if I find some leisure. :-)

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

 

=============================

> Dear Sri Sampath,

>

> Can you tell us how the manes and deities get replenished by the food

> offered in the shrAddha ritual and the oblations poured in the

> sacrificial fire respectively? Is there any physical transfer of

> subtle elements (tanmAtrAs) or it 'just happens' by the vibhUti of

> ishwara? Why fire is called the carrier of the oblations? (please note

> that I have a very limited exposure of this topic)

>

> What does the pUrvamImAmsakAs say and our AchArya say?

>

> Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

>

> Br. Vinayaka.

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran wrote:

 

namaskAraH SrI Ramchandran ji,

mahASaya,

 

I was not aware of this information. Thanks for providing that.

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

 

 

==========================

> Namaste Sri Sampathji:

>

> The following information from Wikipedia provide futher evidence that

> the caste name should not be interpreted as non-Brahmin or as

> backward:

>

> Goud (also written as Gowd, Gowda or Gaud) Saraswat Brahmins are a

> Konkani or Marathi speaking Hindu Brahmin community in India. They

> are popularly referred to as GSBs.

>

> Saraswats are people of Aryan descent who had settled down on the

> banks of the Saraswati River. The river Saraswati eventually dried up

> and this led to the migration of the Saraswats to the plains of

> northern India. Though the exact dates of this migration are unknown,

> the Rig Veda eulogies the river Saraswati was huge. It is believed

> that Lord Parshuram, a Brahmin, also counted as an avatar of Lord

> Vishnu brought the Saraswats from the northern Indian plains to Goa

> for the purpose of religious functions. 96 families of Goud (meaning

> northern) Saraswats came to the southern half of India and hence

> carried the appellation of 'northern' in the form of the word Goud.

> In view of the 96 families who formed 96 settlements in Goa -

> Sasashti (66) (Salcette) + Tissuari (30) (Tiswadi), they were also

> called Shenoy or sinai or shenvis. There were further settlements in

> Baradesh (12 settlements) (Bardez) , Goa.

> Source: Wikipedia

>

> This historical information futher supports the hypotheis of the

> degneration of Varna system of the Vedic Period.

>

> Gaud in Goa is a Brahmin but in Andhra and in Tamil Naud (Gowd became

> Gowda) they became a backward class! As advaitins, we are once again

> reminded that the Atman has no name or form!

>

> With my warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

>

>

>

> advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

> <paramahamsavivekananda@> wrote:

> >

>

> > I am M. Sampath Goud, 20 yrs old, doing M.B.B.S Second year at

> Osmania

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

 

 

> My Reply: Are you sure ISvara is proposed only to explain the

> applicability of karmic law? vEdAntins never propose any entity to

> explain a process as pUrvamimAmsakAs would do. When we speak of

> ISvara, the Omnipotence(sarvakartritvam and sarvashaktitvam) comes

> into view.

 

Dear Sri Sampath,

 

What do you mean by this? Can you kindly elaborate further? What is

the difference between the view of purvamimAsakAs and vEdAntins you

are speaking about? Did not our AchArya vehemently oppose the

'concept' of apUrva and introduced rather reiterated as explained in

the shrutis an 'entity' called ishwara?

 

Please correct me if I have wrongly understood your words.

 

I am not commenting on the rest of your post since I feel its a

repetition.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

 

Namaste SrI Vinayaka ji,

 

SrI Sankara clearly makes such a difference of view existed between

pUrvamImAmsakAs and vEdAntins when he says,

 

Brahma sUtra.III.2.41. " This view is proved by the circumstance of

scripture representing the Lord not only as the giver of fruits *but

also as the causal agent with reference to all actions whether good or

evil.* Compare the passage, Kau. Up. III, 8, 'He makes him whom he

wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed; and the same makes

him whom he wishes to lead down from these worlds do a bad deed.' "

 

 

## pUrvamimAmsakAs had to assume the existence of numerous unknown and

unseen factors to explain the phenomena such as dispense of karma

phala etc. Just like Buddhists, they tried to see the diversity in

this world more than it is actually present. Hence they run after

different alien factors to explain each and every phenomenon that

*appears* as hanging lonely and unconnected to the rest. While

vEdAntins trace all the diversity to a single unified principle. This

is something similar to saying that the vEdAntins follow the way of

" anvaya " while others follow the way of " vyatirEka " .

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

>=========================================================

> advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

> <paramahamsavivekananda@> wrote:

>

>

> > My Reply: Are you sure ISvara is proposed only to explain the

> > applicability of karmic law? vEdAntins never propose any entity to

> > explain a process as pUrvamimAmsakAs would do. When we speak of

> > ISvara, the Omnipotence(sarvakartritvam and sarvashaktitvam) comes

> > into view.

>

> Dear Sri Sampath,

>

> What do you mean by this? Can you kindly elaborate further? What is

> the difference between the view of purvamimAsakAs and vEdAntins you

> are speaking about? Did not our AchArya vehemently oppose the

> 'concept' of apUrva and introduced rather reiterated as explained in

> the shrutis an 'entity' called ishwara?

>

> Please correct me if I have wrongly understood your words.

>

> I am not commenting on the rest of your post since I feel its a

> repetition.

>

> Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

>

> Br. Vinayaka.

>

[Guest guest]

--- paramahamsavivekananda

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

 

>>>Are you sure ISvara is proposed only to explain the

applicability of karmic law? vEdAntins never propose

any entity to explain a process as pUrvamimAmsakAs

would do. When we speak of ISvara, the

Omnipotence(sarvakartritvam and sarvashaktitvam) comes

into view.

 

Reply: No, Paramhamsaji, I did not mean anything of

the sort. I did not bring Ishvara into discussion

until you said Ishvara is the bestower of all karma.

My only question was, if there is no change in subtle

body, how else does one describe the process of karma

and rebirth? As far as my knowledge goes subtle change

in the sukshma sharira is the only process to explain

these things. Although, like I showed in my post, that

is not negating the existence of Ishvara, in fact, far

from it.

 

>>> Leaving ISvara aside, even if you consider the

process of karma, I don't find any reason in saying

that the tanmAtras change on doing karma. anataHkaraNa

is spoken of as " dravya " or substance. It takes

different forms every moment. One of my learned

friends was saying that there is a difference of poles

between modification and change. What antaHkaraNa

undergoes is a modification but not a change.

 

Reply:

Let us say modification is something like changing the

shape of clay to a pot, whereas change means adding a

small amount of metal in clay. Of course they are

different, but the generalization in both is that the

base material, clay has something changed, either the

shape (which can be called modification) or the

composition from what it was like before.

 

Whichever one you choose, there has to be the change

in sukshma sharira both for karma, as well as for

rebirth. Whether its a modification, or change as

described above is not important. But I would like to

know which one it is, and exactly how it works. That

is what I have been asking since the beginning.

 

 

>>> Kindly note that SrI Sankara speaks of the

" aggregate of the subtle elements " but not just a

sukshma sharIra that remains until pralaya. Again, you

have not spoken anything about pUrvapakshin' s

argument that tanmAtras are present everywhere and

hence, organs need to take them. SrI Sankara refutes

this to say that the Organs do not take any new

elements from outside but they take the same elements

along with them.

 

REPLY:

It is not possible to delve into that matter until how

the transmigration exactly happens vis-a-vis the

sukshma sharira and the organs. Until we have a clear

understanding of how the sukshma sharira migrates,

that cannot be decided.

(I am not saying the scriptures or acharyas do not

have such an understanding, I am saying in this

discussion that description has not been stated, or

atleast not which describes the process in detail.)

 

 

Hari Om!

 

 

Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at

http://in.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sampathiji,

 

One of the Dharmasastras proclaim:

 

Janmana Jayate Sudrah Karmana Jayate Dvijah : By birth everyone is a Sudra,

and by Karma (self-effort) one becomes a twice-born.

 

Now tell me who is not born a Sudra! My prostrations to your wisdom and

humility. I have learned much from your contributions in this list.

 

In any case, the purpose of Vedanta is not to convert a Sudra to a brahmana

or elevate anyone to another Varna. The purpose is to become a

ativarnashrami, or one who is beyond castes and orders of life. The

important qualities of Vairagya and Uparati are to keep the mind away from

such values for Caste and Ashrama.

 

Kathirasan

 

 

On Nov 20, 2007 8:27 PM, paramahamsavivekananda <

paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

 

> advaitin <advaitin%40>, " S.N.

> Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

> sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

>

> Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

> hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

> Sankara.

> (vide. vEdOcchAraNE jihvAcchEdaH, dhAraNE SarIra bhEdA iti.-- His

> tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut

> through if he preserves it).

>

> And I thought that this birth of mine should be spent only with

> itihAsAs and purANas as ordained by SrI Sankara.(Vide. SrAvayEt

> chaturOvarNAn iti cha itihAsa purANAdhigamE

> chAturvarNyasyAdhikArasmaraNAt -- Smriti, moreover, declares that all

> the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the

> itihAsAs and purANAs).

>

> But finally, it was your translation of manIsha panchakam that reached

> me somehow which has inspired me to acquire brahmajnAna and I am here

> today. :-)

>

> !! Jai Shankara !!

>

> Yours

> SAMPATH.

> ======================

>

> > Dear Shri Sampath,

> > Your answers to Vaibhav's questions are absolutely correct and to

> the point.

> > I was expecting this from you.I find it a physical strain to type

> out long

> > answers on the computer and so I did not attempt to reply.

> > You are not such a novice as you claim out of modesty.

> > With best wishes,

> > S.N.Sastri

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

 

Dear SrI Vaibhav ji,

 

You Wrote:

> Let us say modification is something like changing the

> shape of clay to a pot, whereas change means adding a

> small amount of metal in clay. Of course they are

> different, but the generalization in both is that the

> base material, clay has something changed, either the

> shape (which can be called modification) or the

> composition from what it was like before.

 

My Reply: Hence modification is not a change in composition. So

antaHkaraNa remains the same.

-

 

 

You Wrote:

> Whichever one you choose, there has to be the change

> in sukshma sharira both for karma, as well as for

> rebirth. Whether its a modification, or change as

> described above is not important. But I would like to

> know which one it is, and exactly how it works. That

> is what I have been asking since the beginning.

 

My Reply: If it is a modification, you cannot say that the sukshma

shrIra has changed. Water takes the shape of container into which it

is poured. By doing so, it is never altered in its composition.

 

SrI Sadananda ji has explained the process of re-birth here,

advaitin/message/38109

 

Special attention has to be paid for this passage:

 

" Transmigration of the soul is only in the subtle

fields which are lokas - the movement again is

provided by the force or pressure of vaasanas. The

model is self consistent. All in all, the experiences

and the movement are similar to that of dream - hence

they are bhoga bhuumis. "

 

 

Yours,

SAMPATH.

---

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns wrote:

 

namaskAraH SrI Vinayaka ji,

 

Thank you very much for raising this point. You are right in saying

that the issue of debate here was regarding the subtle elements of the

" gross body " but not about the subtle elements of the " subtle body " .

From your point, I am assured more than ever that even the

pUrvapakshin had no doubt as whether the sukshma sharIra changes or

not. Rather, since it was AchArya himself who anticipated the possible

objections from opponents, he himself was established in the view that

the " sukshma sharIra - Aggregate of the subtle elements " persists *as

it is* until the dawn of perfect knowledge. The issue here was

whether one can take new gross body without having a " base " of subtle

elements that are common to all gross bodies the embodied soul takes.

AchArya says that the sukshma sharIra *cannot* take a new body *by

itself* and it needs to keep along with it the subtle portions of the

gross body which act as a " base " for any type of gross body it would

take; Be it yatana deha or some other body for enjoyment or another

gross body in the earthly plane itself.

 

Thanks a lot for the correction.

 

 

Yours,

SAMPATH.

 

==================================

> And secondly, I have a question for shastri-ji and other members here.

> In the sUtra bhAshya shankara says that:

>

> " The subtle parts of the elements can moreover easily be procured

> anywhere; for wherever a 'new body' is to be originated they are

> present, and the soul's taking them with itself would, therefore, be

> useless. Hence we conclude that the soul when going is not enveloped

> by them.

>

> To this the teacher replies, 'in obtaining another it goes enveloped.'

> That means: we must understand that the soul when passing from one

> body to another is enveloped by the subtle parts of the elements which

> are the seeds of the 'new body'.--How do we know this? "

>

> He is repeatedly telling the seeds of the 'new body'. Obviously, there

> is no need for the 'new subtle body'. Then, he is talking about the

> new gross body which jiva takes up, isn't it?

>

> I had seen this passage before in a small but a wonderful treatise

> entitled " vEdAntArtha sAra samgraha " by Sri SSS. He raises this

> issue(in the context of death) and says that he will not discuss it at

> length since it is no way connected with the

> self-knowledge.(bhaskar-ji, help required. Please give your inputs.:-))

>

> Further clarifications by other members on this issue will be

> appreciated. And it can be left also since it has got nothing to do

> with liberation. :-))

>

> Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

>

> Br. Vinayaka.

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

> advaitin , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns@> wrote:

>

> namaskAraH SrI Vinayaka ji,

>

> Thank you very much for raising this point. You are right in saying

> that the issue of debate here was regarding the subtle elements of the

> " gross body " but not about the subtle elements of the " subtle body " .

 

Dear Sampath-ji,

 

The sUtra bhAshya passage is very abstruse one. Sri SSS has written in

the notes to compare it with Br.Up.Bh. 4.4.3/4 and sUtrabhAshya

2-4-6/2-4-7.

 

Since it is told that organs+subtle elements are taken for the 'new

body', it should be the elements for the new gross body which jiva is

going to take. Why this rigidity I don't know. Hope to get more light

after I read the related passages of br. Up. Bh. and sutra bhAshya.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

paramahamsavivekananda <paramahamsavivekananda wrote

 

 

 

>>

My Reply: If it is a modification, you cannot say that the sukshma

shrIra has changed. Water takes the shape of container into which it

is poured. By doing so, it is never altered in its composition.

 

Paramhamsaji,

 

I already said change in either composition, or something such as shape, form

etc. are both acceptable. The important point is, the sukshma sharira is in

state A at some point of time, because of its actions and the actions of its

environment, its state changes to a state B. Now, both A and B might have the

same composition, but *something* has to change, either the 'arrangement' of the

subtle elements, or their interaction with each other... Clearly, there is some

change continuosly in the sukshma sharira, and it is the state at the end of the

gross body, say State D, which decides the further course of it and travel to a

new gross body etc.

I am asking if there are references to this *change* which occurs continuously

in the subtle body. It could be a modification, a rearrangement of the same

subtle elements.... anything which results in the change.

Please note I am using the word 'change' to mean a difference in anything

related to the subtle body, and need not be composition of it.

 

 

 

Sadanandaji said:

>>

 

Traveling subtle body does require only subtle forces

not gross forces and energies. The force is provided

by the pressure of vaasanas. The movement of the

subtle body occurs due to that pressure.

 

It is just like movement of dream objects in the

dream. What forces moves the tiger in the dream? The

movement of the subtle matter (in this case may be

thoughts) occurs by the subtle energies extracted from

the pancabhuutas that have all the elements required

due to panceekaraNa.

(UNQUOTE)

 

Question: Sir, so how are the vAsanAs stored? If vAsanAs are the forces which

act on the subtle body, what changes do they bring about in the subtle body? I

can understand that subtle body has subtle forces acting upon it, and the motion

is in a subtle plane, but there should be some way these vAsanAs are stored, and

the way they act. If there are any references in the scriptures about this,

please let us know.

 

Hari Om,

~Vaibhav.

 

 

 

Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.

 

 

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

What is the usefulness of The on going discussions on the above

subject to understand one's True Swaroopa which is the goal of a

genuine and sincere mumukshu? Secondly, how can the things that are

being stated in the discussions can be verified here and now or they

have been stated after verification? If they have been verified by

the writers , have they detailed out the methodolgy for verifying

the same? Finally, has one SharIra at all? Is it not more

beneficial to investigate this?

 

Is it not better to devote our time and energy to become

Brahmajnanis instead of discussing about Brahmajnanis?

 

Let us not forget the fact that The Sages and Acharya Shankara

gave the Upanishads and commentaries there on, for us to realize our

true nature/ Swaroopa and not for indulging in wasteful intellectual

speculations on them .

 

I may please be pardoned for penning the few thoughts which came

to me while glancing through the postings on the above subject.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy.

[Guest guest]

Hari Om.

Paramahamsa ji,

Who said Devatas are not subjected to Karma phalas? Sri Vasudeva Yati

clearly says that there are three types of Karmas those associated

with Punya, pApa and both. Devatas are subjected to the Madhyama

Karmas that gives there consequent results accordingly. Not all Yama's

are Brahma VidyAcAryas. He at one particular Kalpa had his Karma to

gain the Supreme Brahma Tattva. Aswinis, Gandarvas, and other Devatas

are well subjected to their Karma phalas, where we have references

from IthihAsa purAnas for they even come down to take a Manusya Janma.

Manusya Janma is Sresta Misra Karma, while Devatas have ati-Srsta

Misra karmas. Vasudeva Yati adds more further in the Fourth Varnaka

where he points out that even uttama Devatas like Indra and others are

subjected to the seven fold banda's including the Dukka

bava. 'DevAnAmapi 'Vajrahasta puramdaraH' ityAdi vedavacanEsu

SarIragrahadarsanAddukkhasvamastyeva'. He says, due to possession of

Body Devas are subjected to Dukkha, due to rivalry with Asuras, they

are subjected to krodha. When the punya Karmas exhaust IndrAdi Devatas

are subjected to rebirth, or even a fall to Manusya LokaH, causing

Bhithi'. All these goes against your statement Brother !

 

Further, Avidya granti - the subtle knot of antahkarana and the

Caitanya is the centrufugal locus of the accrued Vasanas that forms

the Suksma Sarira. Suksama sarIra is a conglomerate of the 17 tattvas

wherein the prArabdha and anArabdha are two aspects that changes and

modifies themselves respectively. The issue raised here whether

TanmAtras change or not is redundant as far the collective content of

Suksma Sarira is concerned.

With Narayana Smrthi,

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " antharyami_in " <sathvatha wrote:

 

namaskAraH devanAthan ji,

 

Devatas are subjected to karma phalas in the sense that they remain in

those bodies until the karma which brought them there is exhausted.

But as far as my knowledge goes, their bodies are *only* for the

purpose of either enjoyment or suffering. The do not accrue any NEW

karma in those bodies. See what SrI Shankara says in his bhAshya on

Brahma sUtra. 3.1.8.

 

pUrvapakshin says that the karmas of a person who goes to other worlds

after death are all exhausted in those lokas. But Shankara says that

" ALL " the karmas are not exhausted. Few karmas remain over which give

rise to a new birth in earthly plane.

 

Shankara doesn't accept that all karmas are exhausted in other lOkas

because by saying so we fail to give reasons for a new birth.

 

If your theory of devatAs being subjected to the acquisition of new

karma were true, Shankara could have easily said as below:

 

" There exists a remainder of the karma done in past birth as well as

that done in the form of devatas which is the cause for a new birth " .

 

But he says that the ONLY reason for a new birth is the remnant of

unexhausted karma of previous birth.

 

YOURS,

SAMPATH.

 

P.S: I have written the above post in a tearing hurry. Kindly don't

bother for the grammatical and typing errors.

 

If my summary of the quoted bhAshya is not clear, kindly verify the

bhAshya as per the reference I have quoted. I.e., III.1.8.

 

 

 

 

=================================

> Hari Om.

> Paramahamsa ji,

> Who said Devatas are not subjected to Karma phalas? Sri Vasudeva Yati

> clearly says that there are three types of Karmas those associated

> with Punya, pApa and both. Devatas are subjected to the Madhyama

> Karmas that gives there consequent results accordingly. Not all Yama's

> are Brahma VidyAcAryas. He at one particular Kalpa had his Karma to

> gain the Supreme Brahma Tattva. Aswinis, Gandarvas, and other Devatas

> are well subjected to their Karma phalas, where we have references

> from IthihAsa purAnas for they even come down to take a Manusya Janma.

> Manusya Janma is Sresta Misra Karma, while Devatas have ati-Srsta

> Misra karmas. Vasudeva Yati adds more further in the Fourth Varnaka

> where he points out that even uttama Devatas like Indra and others are

> subjected to the seven fold banda's including the Dukka

> bava. 'DevAnAmapi 'Vajrahasta puramdaraH' ityAdi vedavacanEsu

> SarIragrahadarsanAddukkhasvamastyeva'. He says, due to possession of

> Body Devas are subjected to Dukkha, due to rivalry with Asuras, they

> are subjected to krodha. When the punya Karmas exhaust IndrAdi Devatas

> are subjected to rebirth, or even a fall to Manusya LokaH, causing

> Bhithi'. All these goes against your statement Brother !

>

> Further, Avidya granti - the subtle knot of antahkarana and the

> Caitanya is the centrufugal locus of the accrued Vasanas that forms

> the Suksma Sarira. Suksama sarIra is a conglomerate of the 17 tattvas

> wherein the prArabdha and anArabdha are two aspects that changes and

> modifies themselves respectively. The issue raised here whether

> TanmAtras change or not is redundant as far the collective content of

> Suksma Sarira is concerned.

> With Narayana Smrthi,

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " narayana145 " <narayana145 wrote:

>

> Murty ji,

What you have written is correct.No body (existing Humanbeings)

knows about the Brahmajnani.so how can we say whether He has to enjoy

his " prarabdha karma " or not.similarly what happens after death?These

things may be dealt in diffrent ways without any proof.More over a

person become Brahma jnani only by his prarabdha karma.After becoming

brahma jnani His prarabda karma also will be exausted.No more karma of

any type say " SANCHITA,PRARABDHA,AGAMI " will remain to that jeeva.

such souls have no place on our Earth with Physical/astral bodies

(stoola,sukshma,karana)They merge with " PARAMATMA " .so there is no

chance for us tomeet such people to know the facts from them.So there

is no use of Discussing such matters without any proof.

Hari ohm

Sd/sastry

[Guest guest]

I am wondering if these Asuras, devas you all speak of are the bhavapratyayo's

spoken of in the Yoga Sutras? Because in a commentary i have on the

Samadhi-pada (first chapter) by Pandit Usharbudh Arya he says that beings come

back as bhavapratyayo's because they are still attached to perhaps the celestial

sound. Is this what he is referring to?

 

 

paramahamsavivekananda <paramahamsavivekananda

advaitin

Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:57:55 AM

Re: Mechanical and Organic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin@ s.com, " antharyami_ in " <sathvatha@. ..>

wrote:

 

 

 

namaskAraH devanAthan ji,

 

 

 

Devatas are subjected to karma phalas in the sense that they remain in

 

those bodies until the karma which brought them there is exhausted.

 

But as far as my knowledge goes, their bodies are *only* for the

 

purpose of either enjoyment or suffering. The do not accrue any NEW

 

karma in those bodies. See what SrI Shankara says in his bhAshya on

 

Brahma sUtra. 3.1.8.

 

 

 

pUrvapakshin says that the karmas of a person who goes to other worlds

 

after death are all exhausted in those lokas. But Shankara says that

 

" ALL " the karmas are not exhausted. Few karmas remain over which give

 

rise to a new birth in earthly plane.

 

 

 

Shankara doesn't accept that all karmas are exhausted in other lOkas

 

because by saying so we fail to give reasons for a new birth.

 

 

 

If your theory of devatAs being subjected to the acquisition of new

 

karma were true, Shankara could have easily said as below:

 

 

 

" There exists a remainder of the karma done in past birth as well as

 

that done in the form of devatas which is the cause for a new birth " .

 

 

 

But he says that the ONLY reason for a new birth is the remnant of

 

unexhausted karma of previous birth.

 

 

 

YOURS,

 

SAMPATH.

 

 

 

P.S: I have written the above post in a tearing hurry. Kindly don't

 

bother for the grammatical and typing errors.

 

 

 

If my summary of the quoted bhAshya is not clear, kindly verify the

 

bhAshya as per the reference I have quoted. I.e., III.1.8.

 

 

 

============ ========= ========= ===

 

> Hari Om.

 

> Paramahamsa ji,

 

> Who said Devatas are not subjected to Karma phalas? Sri Vasudeva Yati

 

> clearly says that there are three types of Karmas those associated

 

> with Punya, pApa and both. Devatas are subjected to the Madhyama

 

> Karmas that gives there consequent results accordingly. Not all Yama's

 

> are Brahma VidyAcAryas. He at one particular Kalpa had his Karma to

 

> gain the Supreme Brahma Tattva. Aswinis, Gandarvas, and other Devatas

 

> are well subjected to their Karma phalas, where we have references

 

> from IthihAsa purAnas for they even come down to take a Manusya Janma.

 

> Manusya Janma is Sresta Misra Karma, while Devatas have ati-Srsta

 

> Misra karmas. Vasudeva Yati adds more further in the Fourth Varnaka

 

> where he points out that even uttama Devatas like Indra and others are

 

> subjected to the seven fold banda's including the Dukka

 

> bava. 'DevAnAmapi 'Vajrahasta puramdaraH' ityAdi vedavacanEsu

 

> SarIragrahadarsanAd dukkhasvamastyev a'. He says, due to possession of

 

> Body Devas are subjected to Dukkha, due to rivalry with Asuras, they

 

> are subjected to krodha. When the punya Karmas exhaust IndrAdi Devatas

 

> are subjected to rebirth, or even a fall to Manusya LokaH, causing

 

> Bhithi'. All these goes against your statement Brother !

 

>

 

> Further, Avidya granti - the subtle knot of antahkarana and the

 

> Caitanya is the centrufugal locus of the accrued Vasanas that forms

 

> the Suksma Sarira. Suksama sarIra is a conglomerate of the 17 tattvas

 

> wherein the prArabdha and anArabdha are two aspects that changes and

 

> modifies themselves respectively. The issue raised here whether

 

> TanmAtras change or not is redundant as far the collective content of

 

> Suksma Sarira is concerned.

 

> With Narayana Smrthi,

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Shree Viabhav Khire, PraNAms

 

First your questions are about subtle body and any

discussion has to be taken with a grain of salt. I do

not think Vedanta gives too much importance to those

details and any discussion of pancheekaraNa or

TrivRitkarana is done to show that the moola kaaraNa

is Brahman and whatever you see is only naama and

ruupa and therefore mithyaa. The teaching is

essentially meant to recognize the oneness of the

cause in all the effects that one perceives, and

therefore knowing one, one knows all. When the

creation itself is apparent and not real, then it is

apparent that any further discussion on the apparent,

missing the real, will be giving more importance to

unreal than real. Now you are asking about details of

the snake that is projected on the rope.

 

I will present my understanding to the extent that is

meaningful. Sampathji may provide his answer. The

intrinsic structure of subtle body does not change not

only when one sleeps or laya (when the mind/intellect

folds into subtle form) or during death as well as

during pralaya or during krama mukti (aabrahma

bhuvaannalokaaaH)- the jiiva does not change - jiiva

being the reflected consciousness in the anthaH karaNa

- or chidaabhaasa. Therefore we can say the structure

does not change but the contents can change in terms

the reflective medium. Sampathji gave one example -

another one like a mirror (since jiiva is reflected

consciousness)- it reflects the consciousness. Now the

mirror can get dirtier by egocentric indulgence or

gets purified by saadhana - that is chages in the

contents but not in structure. It is like ego

structure does not change but contents can blot up!

 

Mind ( I still writing on that topic) forms the basis

for vRittiis or thoughts. Flow of thoughts is

considered as Mind but actually it is basis on which

thoughts flow. Flow involves direction and Vaasanaas

provide that direction for the flow. I think in one

way, and others think in another way - differences are

due to the vaasanaas. Vaasanaas also can be considered

as potential channels for the direction of flow of

thoughts. They are dynamic in the sense that which is

the most powerful vaasanaas will set the next

direction of the thought flow, although as a human

beings we have 'will' to change and go even against

the vaasanaas.

 

What I am discussing is not the structure but the

contents of the subtle body. This is similar to the

gross body and its contents can change either by

starving or eating too much or doing daily exercises

etc although the individual generic structure remains.

Subtle body includes mind (with its four parts -

manas, buddhi, ahankaara and chitta), praaNas and

indriyaas. Ch. Up discusses how mind is the product

of annam (related to earth), praana is related to jala

tatvam and speech related to agni tatvam. Essentially

the subtle parts of the gross elements have a role in

their respective components. Here by changing the

input we are only changing the contents but not the

structure - that is jiiva. Jiiva is eternal as Krishna

says - since this creation is eternal. when we go to

deep sleep state or even in pralaya, they all go into

subtler forms like genetic codes preserving all their

structure and the current contents into a subtle form

that can grossify later.

 

How exactly the vaasanaas stored, one can say

following western psychology as subconscious and

unconscious mind - essentially they are deeply rooted

in to the frame work of the mind and will express out

in a suitable conditions, or come to surface when they

are ripe. Hence current praarabda vaasanaas dictate

as the main force for the direction of thoughts. Hence

by saadhana one change or neutralize those forces so

that thoughts can be redirected. Here we are again

changing the contents of the mind not its basic

structure which is the seat for the chidaabhaasa or

reflected consciousness to takes place.

How are they stored? - your guess is as good as mine;

and I am not sure if Vedanta cares to expend on these

(as far as I know). Acharyaas may provide some

interpretation and if you are happy with it let that

be so and if you are not happy, you can provide your

own as long as it helps you to go beyond the snake to

understand the rope.

 

The essential point is changes in the suukshma

shariira is not in its structure but in its contents

in terms of vaasanaas (aagaami)since we are talking

about future modification as saadhana proceeds. After

death some of the contents get emptied punya and paapa

gets exhausted during the movement in the lokas and

experiencing those. Here there is no accumulation of

new vaasanaas. In Brahma loka one has choice as per

our scriptures on krama mukti- where you can join the

advaitin list run by Brahmaji (4-headed Brahma)and get

some special classes on advaita Vedanta and can evolve

from there itself without returning to his karma

bhuumi. But since he is very busy he takes one class

(or one email) in every 30 years (according to Ch.

Up.)New gross body (or bodies in different lokas)are

determined by the vaasanaas (stored perhaps as subtle

genetic codes?. Chandogya discusses how these are

transferred through father to mother into grosser

expression of physical body.

 

With this background your questions can be answered.

 

 

--- vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote:

 

 

Now, both A and B

> might have the same composition, but *something* has

> to change, either the 'arrangement' of the subtle

> elements, or their interaction with each other...

> Clearly, there is some change continuosly in the

> sukshma sharira, and it is the state at the end of

> the gross body, say State D, which decides the

> further course of it and travel to a new gross body

> etc.

> I am asking if there are references to this *change*

> which occurs continuously in the subtle body. It

> could be a modification, a rearrangement of the same

> subtle elements.... anything which results in the

> change.

> Please note I am using the word 'change' to mean a

> difference in anything related to the subtle body,

> and need not be composition of it.

 

Chandogya (sad vidya) talks about how gross food,

water and fuel affects the subtler matter: mind,

praaNa and speech, etc. In Prajapati vidya it talks

about how the subtler takes a grosser body through

rains and plants, food, father and mother.

Krishana in 6th chapter talks about how once one has

joined advaitin list, he can rapidly evolve by taking

birth in - shreematam gehe - where everything is ready

for his rapid evolution.

 

> Question: Sir, so how are the vAsanAs stored? If

> vAsanAs are the forces which act on the subtle body,

> what changes do they bring about in the subtle body?

 

The vaasanaas are stored deep states of the mind (like

likes and dislikes) that inflence ones thoughts and

through thoughts ones actions. If we say he is what

he thinks, then his personality is affected without of

course affecting his jiiva identity. Now I am bhogi

and after listing to scriptures Now I am a yogi etc.

 

> I can understand that subtle body has subtle forces

> acting upon it, and the motion is in a subtle plane,

> but there should be some way these vAsanAs are

> stored, and the way they act. If there are any

> references in the scriptures about this, please let

> us know.

 

I do not think there is any direct discussion ( I may

be worng since I did not pay too much attention to

these) on how exactly they are stored. But their are

continuously affected by samskaara and saadhana - they

are called dharma in scriptures. What remains with him

when he dies is his dharma - which is nothing but his

set of vaasanaas and dharma carries him to different

lokas. Here we are going shaastriiya anumaana or

deductive reasoning based on shaastras statements but

not in their detail.

 

As I said you can develop your own model based on

shastra input, and it will be as good as any body's as

long as you are satisfied with it.

 

Shastra's emphasis of course is to use this knowledge

for meditation to contemplate on that very cause

knowing which every thing else is known. yat jnaatvaa

naaparam jneyam - knowing which there is nothing more

to know.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Sadanandaji,

 

I have replied to the point raised by Murthyji about the relevance of this

discussion in another mail. But I agree with you that all these discussions

should be done keeping in mind that the reality is beyond all these and

realizing that reality is indeed the aim. But then again, any of the discussions

under sun would have the same concern associated with them.

 

Having said that, I would like to thank you for a delightful and to-the-point

post, directly addressing my questions. They provide several pointers to a

deeper description of the process. I would be really grateful if you would

indulge me a little more with the same.

 

Firstly, it is of course true that the jiva, which is the reflection of Brahman

is unchangeable. It would be unAdvaitiic to suggest otherwise. Hence any change

which occurs will be in the sharira and not the jiva.

 

Accepting that, the subtle body consists of mind in its 4 parts, praana,

indriyas etc. Swami Krishnananda describes this in a little more detail in his

lecture 'The Philosophy of Life' available here:

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/phil/phil_06f.html

 

As per him, because of the Vikshepa Shakti of Brahman, are formed 5 sets of

Tanmatras. Each of these tanmatras have sattva, rajas and tamas gunas. From the

sattva part of the tanmatras, is formed the manas, which constitutes or has

various forms such as the ego, mind, intellect and memory. Through the rajas

part are formed the 5 praanas, and through the tamas parts are formed (due to

pancheekaranam) the indriyaas.

 

Without going into the exact nature of what the sattva, rajas and tamas

qualities mean, we can say that whenever the subtle body " changes " (as a result

of blows hit on it by karma), 2 things can happen:

1. There is a change in the composition of tanmatras. Since they are the basic

elements of nature, such a change, although possible, might not be a routine

thing (since otherwise the process would have been discussed by descibing a

finer set of particles as basic).

2. There is a change in the properties of tanmatras. Either individual

tanmatras, or the subtle body as a whole (depending on how one wishes to look at

it), changes its sattva, rajas and tamas character. Swami Vivekananda says that

the sattva, rajas and tamas are the tendencies of ANY object. Rajas denotes

repulsion, wherein the object repels others and denotes attraction whereas

sattva is the balance between these two. With each bad karma there is a tendency

to attract by the senses, with each good karma there is a tendency to retract.

The overall karma is thus the sum-total of these individual attraction and

retraction tendencies. These attraction and retraction forces are stored in the

chitta (much like energy is stored up in the wound string of a watch); which

accordingly unwinds at a time in future. These would be the vAsanAs of the

individual.

 

Thus, a person involved only in the sensual pleasure is tamasic, since the

indriyas, which are the instruments of pleasure are made up of Tamasic

tanmatras. A person who is directed towards truth, or is noble has a

pre-dominance of rajas and practises Pranayama etc. Whereas a person off sattvic

nature has his indriyas and prana under control, and his mind, being steady,

free of inputs through the Prana and indriyas, by its natural tendency aligned

with the atman.

 

 

Thus, this provides a consistent model to how a karma is stored in the subtle

body.

 

From what my understanding is, this is the model of storage of karma, which I

can comprehend. The stored vAsanAs after the death of the gross body are

transferred to a new body (the model/procedure of which I am unable to

understand).

 

This is my current understanding. While I agree we each can come up with our own

understanding, I would find it hard to believe that scriptures do not address

this issue at all. Especially, Shankara's works would have to contain a

description of this, since Buddhists had/have a model of these processes (which

does not require the atman), and Shankaracharya was able to defeat them in

arguments. Without Vedanta successfully elaborating these processes, and showing

them to be the actual mechanism versus the Buddhist theories which are proved

false, winning a debate would not have been possible.

 

(If one thinks about it, Sri Shankara was quizzed even about sex in the course

of his debates, so its highly unlikely that the issue of transmigration and

karma is not discussed in complete detail by him.)

 

 

Anyway, thanks again for your insightful post, as it helped me clear a lot of my

doubts. I would really appreciate any more thoughts from you or others in this

matter.

Hari Om,

~Vaibhav.

 

 

 

Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pranam Shri Murthyji,

narayana145 <narayana145 wrote:

 

>>>

What is the usefulness of The on going discussions on the above

subject to understand one's True Swaroopa which is the goal of a

genuine and sincere mumukshu? Secondly, how can the things that are

being stated in the discussions can be verified here and now or they

have been stated after verification? If they have been verified by

the writers , have they detailed out the methodolgy for verifying

the same? Finally, has one SharIra at all? Is it not more

beneficial to investigate this?

 

Reply:

I cannot of course reply for anyone else. Perhaps it might be because I am not a

spiritually progressed person, or havent had the chance to read as many various

scriptures as others, but I cannot see beyond the manifest. Intellectually, I

can understand that what appears as a snake is indeed a rope, but it will be

plain dishonest of me if I say that snake does not exist for me, only rope does.

 

I can understand that the rope is the reality, but all I can see currently is

the snake. To understand the reality, all I can do is start investigating the

snake, albeit keeping always in mind that the reality is rope. Which is why

material investigation is important, always knowing that the reality is beyond

what is material.

 

Perhaps it is beneficial for some to construct and understand the various

philosophical intricacies of truth, who really is the questioneer, and whether

there is anything which can be questioned at all etc. I am well aware that such

logical constructs are nearer to the truth and reality (although not true and

real themselves) than the questions being discussed here. But it still does not

undermine the importance of investigating how daily phenomena take place. It is

very well understood that going beyond the realm of karma is the sole aim of

life, but why is understanding the storage of karma (and then going beyond it)

not important?

 

Lastly, I can very well understand it philosophically or intellectually, that

calling a particular sharira as 'mine' is meaningless, in fact the concept of

sharira itself is like a bubble on surface of water. But as far as experience is

concerned, there does exist a sharira, I am still bound to my karma.

Investigating into the karma is thus an important step in being relieved of it.

This is atleast true, as long as you are on the path of Jnana Yoga.

 

That clarifies my stand and my inclination to ask questions about this matter.

Pranam,

~Vaibhav.

 

 

 

 

Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Join them now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari Om,

Paramahamsa ji,

As the aspirant who performs PancAgni vidya thrice attains the

swarga lokah. And those food offered in the sacrifices are consumed

by Devatas; where `food' is taken in a figurative sense to indicate

the fact that it denotes the Devatas as Bhoktas. Further, these

celestial beings who are embodied with `water', does not in any way

favor your argument at any level. The devatas embodied with water,

connotes the meaning where `water' is taken as `faith', as conveyed

by B.S.B III.i.4/ Tai.Sam. I.vi.8-9. In syntactical harmony water is

taken to be Shraddha of the performer of Sacrifice who by Apurva

Vidhi reaches the abode of Swarga. Even by abhyupagama vada that you

may present, water is that which cannot be devoid of Kartrtva for

the Shrti claims `Apo va idamagra Asit' from which the trvrt karana

or the pancIkarana takes place. So the karmic body insists on

attaching Kartrtva to Devatas. So with these two notions viz

Kartrtva and boktrtva, Devatas cannot be lodged with a special

status of accomplishing the karma phalas in the abode of Swarga. The

world of Minstrels – Gandarvas – the world of joy is only a part of

Swarga lokaH, the joy that is manifested in multiple times. Bagavad

pada conveys this and quotes Br. IV.iii.3, AdvaitAcArya in his

Brahma vidyAbarana comments to interpret the `act' of consumption

of food with the Boktrtva as well the kartrtva as a `lOt'lakAra

Vidhi (Panini formula) ; which MandanAcArya calls it to be

Pravartana. Bhamati refers Pravartana to be a `lOt- vidhi' that

indicates the `krti-karta' sambandaH. NrsimhAsrama, on the other

hand brings in the `lin' prakAra into the realms of `lOt' vidhi to

insist on the significance of the volitional effort of the Devatas

as a prefix to kriya-kartrtva relation ruling out any special status

for fructification of karmas to Devatas. Finally BrahmavidyakAra,

comments on Acaryas karmani term to say `Karma kartrtva

devaparAntaram paraloke api .. dukkham karma iti pratipAdakam |' –

api sabda categorically involves the Deva lokaH too who are

subjected to the normal course of exhausting their karmas.

With Narayana Smrthi,

[Guest guest]

our beloved Sri Srinivasa asks in all his innocence :

 

(Is it not better to devote our time and energy to become

Brahmajnanis instead of discussing about Brahmajnanis? )

 

my dearest Srini, i wonder if you have read a scriptural text

called 'Tripura Rahasya ' ? It is a Shakta doctrine specially on Sri

Vidya but it is also considered a Treatise on Advaita - a treatise

which Sri Ramana was fond of reading and quoting .

 

now , Srini, may i kindly draw your chapter XIX on different states

of jnanis - a chapter entitled 'Haritayana Samhita' - an interesting

and enlightening dialogue between Sage Parasurama and Lord

Dattatreya .

 

In this wonderful chapter, Lord Dattatreya elaborately discusses how

intellects differ among different Sages according to their mental

predispostions . Dattatreya maintains very clearly that 'Jnana ' Is

only One and Eternal but jnanis differ. Here , Sri DATTATREYA TALKS

ABOUT PREDISPOSITIONS ( VASANAS) and classifies them into three

groups

 

(1) Aparaadha (fault), (2) Karma (action) and (3) Kaama (desire).

 

" The disposition typical of the first group is diffidence in the

teachings of the Guru and the holy books which is the surest way to

degeneration. Misunderstanding of the teachings, due to

assertiveness or pride is a phase of diffidence and stands in the

way of realization for learned pandits and others.

 

" Association with the wise and the study of holy books cannot remove

this misunderstanding. They maintain that there is no reality

transcending the world; even if there were, it cannot be known; if

one claims to know it, it is an illusion of the mind; for how can

knowledge make a person free from misery or help his emancipation?

They have many more doubts and wrong notions. So much about the

first group.

 

" There are many more persons who cannot, however well-taught, grasp

the teachings; their minds are too much cramped with predispositions

to be susceptible to subtle truths. They form the second group - the

victims of past actions, unable to enter the stage of contemplation

necessary for annihilating the vasanas.

 

" The third group is the most common, consisting of the victims of

desire who are always obsessed with the sense of duty (i.e., the

desire to work for some ends). Desires are too numerous to count,

since they rise up endlessly like waves in the ocean. Even if the

stars are numbered, desires are not. The desires of even a single

individual are countless - and what about the totally of them? Each

desire is too vast to be satisfied, because it is insatiable; too

strong to be resisted; and too subtle to be eluded. So the world,

being in the grip of this demon, behaves madly and groans with pain

and misery, consequent on its own misdeeds. That person who is

shielded by desirelessness (dispassion) and safe from the wiles of

the monster of desire, can alone rise to happiness.

 

" A person affected by one or more of the abovesaid three

dispositions cannot get at the truth although it is self-evident. "

 

snip snip snip

 

http://www.tantra.co.nz/spirituallibrary/TripuraRahasya.htm

 

It is a very long chapter but i would encourage all members to read

it with attention !

 

Dattatreya then takes the names of different sages and shows how

each one of them is different and interestingly enough he takes the

names of Sage Yagnavalkya and Vishwamitra and sage Janaka also !

Yes! Folks all sages are not jivanmuktas though they may be

brahmajnanis and the reason being if if some vasanas are stil

left , a sage cannot be a jivanmukta as was the case with

Yagnavalkya!

 

Srini , there are three classes of jnanis just as there are three

classes of bhaktas . For the highest order of jnani such as Sri

Ramana all this discussion may be useless but there are other

countless jnanis who are in the lowe order of jnana and middle order

of jnana !

 

and as Lord Dattatreya says

 

" The mind of the highest order of jnanis though associated with

objects, knows them to be unreal and therefore is not agitated as is

the case with the ignorant.

 

Since a jnani of the highest order can engage in several actions at

the same time and yet remain unaffected, he is always many-minded

and yet remains in unbroken samadhi. His is absolute knowledge free

from objects. "

 

This is the reason why Sage Ramana was present in holy satsangha

with his devotees to impart to them the teachings of 'atma jnanam'

 

Srini , do you mean to say Lord Rama did not know his atma swarupa ?

what was the need for sage Vasishta to teach Sri Rama the yoga

vasishta ? What was the need for lord janaka to learn the Ashtavakra

gita ?

 

Dear heart! In advaita , reasoning and healthy dialogues on holy

scriptures are allowed ! What is not allowed is confrontation and

bickering ! Tarka is o.k . Kutarka is not! Vada is o.k. not

vithandavada ! and Samvada is o.k but not vivada!

 

cheers!

 

happy holidays !