Mechanical and Organic

[Guest guest]

Desr Shri Devanathan,

You have said:--

Statements such

as " yanna duHkhena sambhinnam na ca grastam anantaram " are

arthavAdas; for Rg.Veda IX.113. refers Moksa by the Svarga Sabda and

we have references like 'Svarge Sokam atItya gachati'where it must

be understtod that while Sukha boga in Swarga, the joy is so high

that it 'seems' as though there is no 'iota' of Dukkha, but actually

the very Sukha Boga is due to Punya-Ksaya which is directly

proportional to the magnitude of experiencing Papa.

My reply:-

These statements are arthavadas only from the point of view of moksha which

alone is permanent. Here we are not discussing about moksha, but about

svarga which is impermanent.

Nowhere in the upanishads or bhAshya it is stated that the persons who go to

heaven have to suffer the reasults of their sins also there. On the other

hand it is clearly stated that they suffer the results of their sins only

after they come back from heaven and they suffer them in this world or even

in hell.

Your statement that'punya-kshaya is directly proportional to the magnitude

of experiencing pApa ' is not clear.

Please see my detailed reply to Sunderji on this point.

S.N.Sastri

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

 

>

> Sri Sankara says that all these matters are stated in the upanishads

only to

> generate detachment in us by telling us that even heavenly pleasures

are not

> worth striving for. I am stating this because some members question

the need

> for such discussions.

> I hope this answers also the points raised by Shri Sampath and Shri

> Devanathan.

 

Pranams Sri Sastriji,

 

Thank you very much for your lucid explanation.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Hari Om,

Shri Shri Sastriji,

In Ch 2. 53. Niscala Dasa yati discusses this issue briefly and he

says thus: " All bodies are products of Karmas that are common to all

Devas Manushyas and Tiryaks. So long the body lasts it is

impossible to be entirely free from misery; because the body is the

resulting product of assimilated Vasanas that are nothing but a

mixture of Good and Bad deeds. Human body is a mixed blend of Punya

and Papa and so does the Deva Sarira. " Devasariram api misra karma

phalam ityeva vaktavavyam. " Says Niscala Dasa. If the Devatas are

subjected to only Punya and not Papa, then the statements of

Sastras are falsified, which says that Devas envy about bodies of

other Devatas; even Indra, the principle among the Devas is actuated

by fear concerning many other Devas and Danavas. Denying Devatas

pain from suffering on account of their Punya ksaya alone is not

accepted by us since the very envy and fear are due to papa alone.

Thus Devatas fructify Punya and Papa together in the Swarga lokaH is

our view. Further the purport of Shrthi that says (Br

I.v.20): `PunyamevAmun gaccati, na ha vai DevAn papam Gaccati' must

be taken this way: Human body alone is entitled to works; those

results are fructified as Sancita and AgAmi while the Devatas merely

transcend the AgAmi while they accrue their Karmas Sancita and

Prarabdha. Other Punya and Papa done in prior life do produce their

effects in Deva's body itself from mixed actions "

 

" Thus Deva sarIras, which are considered to be Punya form alone, are

meant to be Arthavadas by Niscla Dasa as he says their Sariras are

made of only traces of Papa and more of Punya. Swarga lokaH that is

called as Boga lokaH is as much as saying (an example that Niscla

Dasa yati quotes) `for Brahmins who live in a village in majority is

called a `Brahmin Village, though other castes resides in it in

small proportion'. These are the original words of Niscala Dasa

himself "

 

Devasariram api misra karma phalam ityeva vaktavavyam. Yadi

devasarIramkevala punya phalam syAt naiva syAt kadAcidapi devAnAm

dukkham. Indriyasya aneka dairya dAna… Br.1.5.20 Nahavai …. Karma

adhikAra yogyam sarIram manusam eva na itaret. AtaH devata

saririrena krta punyApunya phalam janmAntare na tAn gaccati

ityartaH. Natu tesham kkarma phala abAva mAtra iti.

 

Asserting the ArthavAda statements as you have quoted need not be

from Moksa stand point since negating equations like Swarga as Moksa

needs entirely different stand point other than the former two; the

only other stand point can be that of empirical plane alone which is

relatively real.

 

And may I humbly assume from your silence on Mimamsa Nyaya (to prove

Papa in Swarga LokaH ) that you have endorsed my explanation there?

Please Kindly clarify that point since I am keen to note your view

on the application of Mimamsa Nyaya in Vedanta which I shall make

use in my further posts. I am waiting for your consent Mahodaya so

that I would extend my arguments on those lines to answer Sampath ji

in near future.

 

With Narayana Smrthi.

[Guest guest]

Sri Sampath Ji,

 

 

 

Thanks for your explanation in post # 38175. On Duality, it does agree

with my understanding of the model so far. To reiterate what you said

the duality of " Transmigrating " Jiva is only for a hypothetical

observer. The " Transmigrating " Jiva does not have any awareness i.e.

Body, memories, intellect, ego, etc. Hence they can't be any duality

from Jiva POV. Is this not similar to the state of deep sleep for " this "

human body?

 

 

 

Following this thread more closely, what I understand is that there is

only one component of " Karma " associated with " Transmigrating " Jiva -

that is Sanchita Karma alone. As Prarabdha is exhausted when the body

dies and Agami is absorbed into Sanchita for future body. From my

limited " Newtonian " mind, I equate it to " Tension " in a wound " String " .

You said, Jiva is not confined to any particular plane. Can you explain

this further? Does is not depend on the nature and composition of

Sanchita Karma (in the form of three Gunas – which are called

" Paapa " and " Punya " ) that is superimposed on Atman?

 

 

 

In quoting Sankara, you said – " " I am brahman, I am thinking

myself as jIva. As long as I think so, I will have re-incarnation. "

What is this " thinking " you are taking about. Is not thinking

part of BMI complex? What is " Thinking " in a Transmigrating

Jiva? It appears that Transmigrating Jiva has no choice. It gets

propelled by tension in Sanchita Karma. Which is same in deep sleep.

Jiva does not think in deep sleep, hence there is no " creation "

for Jiva in deep sleep - comes into creation due to Karma.

 

 

 

Am I mixing thing up in my confusion?

 

 

 

Your explanation on " Collective " Karma makes sense.

 

 

 

Thanks for great contribution on this group for collective learning.

 

 

 

Sudesh Pillutla

 

 

 

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

> Dear SrI Sudesh ji,

 

>

 

 

 

> pinDAnda(Microcosm) = brahmAnDa(Macrocosm). So, jIva is *not confined*

 

> to any particular plane of existence. This being so, can one jIva see

 

> another jIva transmigrating? This is a serious question. It seems that

 

> a jIva who himself is a transmigrating entity, cannot see the other

 

> jIva re-incarnating. This point has to be contemplated upon.

 

>

 

> To answer your question, it seems that even jIva srishTi has to be

 

> taken into account. SrI Sankara's point in brahma sUtras that he made

 

> while speaking about the self same soul awaking from sushupti seems to

 

> be very significant. He says:

 

>

 

> this thinking faculty that decides all these things? -- It is but a

 

> vikAra of the universal Mind. To be clear, it is the vyashTi form of

 

> the Cosmic Mind.

 

> ---------------------------

 

>

 

>

 

> My Reply: As far as my knowledge goes, no where in Scripture it is

 

> mentioned that karma is collective. It is always spoken of in relation

 

> to an individual. About the example you have cited, it can be said

 

> that, all those who are affected by a common global cause were

 

> destined to suffer in that way due to their individual past karmAs.

 

>

 

> Hope I have not made the issue more complex.

 

>

 

> !! SrI Adi SankarArpaNamastu !!

 

>

 

> YOURS,

 

> SAMPATH.

 

>