Mechanical and Organic

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Devanathan,

I have looked up Vichara sagara which you have referred to, but I am not

able to understand what it says. I have already stated my understanding in

my previous post. What Vichara sagara says seems rather strange. I suggest

that you consult a scholar like Dr. Mani Dravid Sastri on this point. I am

not able to say anything more. What I have said in my previous post is the

opinion generally held on this point.

Best Wishes,

S.N.Sastri

 

Shri Shri Sastriji,

In Ch 2. 53. Niscala Dasa yati discusses this issue briefly and he

says thus: " All bodies are products of Karmas that are common to all

Devas Manushyas and Tiryaks. So long the body lasts it is

impossible to be entirely free from misery; because the body is the

resulting product of assimilated Vasanas that are nothing but a

mixture of Good and Bad deeds. Human body is a mixed blend of Punya

and Papa and so does the Deva Sarira. " Devasariram api misra karma

phalam ityeva vaktavavyam. " Says Niscala Dasa. If the Devatas are

subjected to only Punya and not Papa, then the statements of

Sastras are falsified, which says that Devas envy about bodies of

other Devatas; even Indra, the principle among the Devas is actuated

by fear concerning many other Devas and Danavas. Denying Devatas

pain from suffering on account of their Punya ksaya alone is not

accepted by us since the very envy and fear are due to papa alone.

Thus Devatas fructify Punya and Papa together in the Swarga lokaH is

our view. Further the purport of Shrthi that says (Br

I.v.20): `PunyamevAmun gaccati, na ha vai DevAn papam Gaccati' must

be taken this way: Human body alone is entitled to works; those

results are fructified as Sancita and AgAmi while the Devatas merely

transcend the AgAmi while they accrue their Karmas Sancita and

Prarabdha. Other Punya and Papa done in prior life do produce their

effects in Deva's body itself from mixed actions "

Devanathan

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

PraNAms to all

 

If I may interject with my limited knowledge -

 

1. I agree that shariira is the product of karma and

moksha is ashariiratvam.

 

2. Karma can be both punya and paapa - since there is

no absolute pure puNya and pure paapa(unless you are a

dvaitin where they have eternal hell)

 

3. Therefore sanchita karma contains both them.

 

4. After death, those that are dominating influence at

the time of death will push the soul into the field to

exhaust those particular vaasanas. A body is assumed

that is suitable for those particular vaasanaas.

 

5. There are hierarcy of jiivas even in heaven - as

stated in the Ti. Up there are gradations in the

happiness. Hence tara tama bhedaas are there in heaven

where one enjoys only one's quata of happiness in

heaven - dvaitins call this 'bucketf full of their

happiness for them' that is all they get even in

moksha,their bucket full, since tara tama bhedaas are

there even in moksha for dvaitins.

 

6. Those that have predominantly higher puNya will go

heavenly abodes and those that are predominantly paapa

will go to lower and those that have close to the mean

will be born in karma bhuumi.

 

7. In the Krama mukti - the upaasakas take a route

that takes them to Satya loka where those that are

pure upasakas will return back while those that have

vedanta inclination will have a chance to evolve from

there - under the guidance of prajaapati. People like

Virocana may dropout of these courses! while Indra can

graduate with honors.

 

8. Accorind Gita, 'kshene punye martulokam vishanti' -

seems to imply that we are there in heaven until our

quota of punya is exhaused (which means we do have

paapa but that does not manifest in heaven - when it

does manifest, we will be thrown out of that place).

 

That is my understanding, since I do not remember what

happened last time when I went there.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

 

> Dear Shri Devanathan,

> I have looked up Vichara sagara which you have

> referred to, but I am not

> able to understand what it says.

 

> Shri Shri Sastriji,

> In Ch 2. 53. Niscala Dasa yati discusses this issue

> briefly and he

> says thus: " All bodies are products of Karmas that

> are common to all

> Devas Manushyas and Tiryaks. So long the body lasts

> it is

> impossible to be entirely free from misery; because

> the body is the

> resulting product of assimilated Vasanas that are

> nothing but a

> mixture of Good and Bad deeds. Human body is a mixed

> blend of Punya

> and Papa and so does the Deva Sarira. " Devasariram

> api misra karma

> phalam ityeva vaktavavyam. " Says Niscala Dasa.

[Guest guest]

hare krishna, namaskarams

 

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:

 

<That is my understanding, since I do not remember what happened last time when

I went there.>

 

yes.all of us have been there and got kicked back in to this karma bhoomi for

obvious reasons.we are all advised not to think of the past that is gone and

the future which we do not know but to live now in the present.is'nt it funny

that we are discussing the pre birth and post death periods.

 

god bless us all.baskaran

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BASKARAN.C.S

 

 

 

Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari Om.

Shri Bhaskaran ji,

I dont see anything funny here to discuss pre-post Birth periods; for

our purvAcAryas have done it. We only extend from there line to

discern there views and investigate on them more. Are you trying to

say Smrti vakyas on the issue are funny ? you think Manu is funny ? or

Shrthi being funny ? especially Chandogya, Kausitaki being funny?

Sutra Bashya discussions funny ? or is it Niscaladasa making fun to

entertain dumb ones like me ! ? mmm... !

Anyways thanks for observing the proceesings !

With Narayana Smrthi,

[Guest guest]

There are hierarcy of jiivas even in heaven - as

stated in the Ti. Up there are gradations in the

happiness. Hence tara tama bhedaas are there in heaven

where one enjoys only one's quata of happiness in

heaven

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

And in dEva lOka also there exist weaknesses like rAga dvEsha & devAta-s

too subject to that karma phala immediately, so says our purANic

stories...Indra due to his lustful attitude towards R^ishi patni (wife of

Rishi...forgot his name)..got the punishment from that Rishi...and this

Indra is often afraid of asura-s & very anxious to protect his power &

thrown at his place :-))...In one of the upanishads it is said dEvata-s

donot want human being to become brahmajnAni-s coz. they donot want to lose

the offerings from him...another upanishad narrates the story in which

devata-s like indra, agni, vAyu, varuNa etc. have been suffered defeat from

yaksha & could not do anything even to a piece of grass due to their

arrogance...For that matter, even in vaikunTa also door keepers (dvAra

pAlaka-s) jaya-vijaya had the rAga -dvEsha, ahankArAdi negative qualities &

they have been cursed by sanakAdi R^ishis & had to incarnate as asura-s in

bhUlOka ...all these episodes (if you believe it is a true incident at some

point of time :-)) do prove that dEva lOka & its popular personalities do

have rAga-dvEsha & reaped the karma phala due to that like any other

mortals on bhulOka...So, svargAdi dEva lOka-s also not preferable for

us...let us aim for the higher shot :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

hare krishna, namaskarams

 

in my post i referred to a particular sentence marked from Sri.sadanada's post

and what i felt about it.it is funny in that sense .i did not say all other

things you have quoted as funny.

 

god bless us all

 

baskaran

 

antharyami_in <sathvatha wrote: Hari

Om.

Shri Bhaskaran ji,

I dont see anything funny here to discuss pre-post Birth periods; for

our purvAcAryas have done it. We only extend from there line to

discern there views and investigate on them more. Are you trying to

say Smrti vakyas on the issue are funny ? you think Manu is funny ? or

Shrthi being funny ? especially Chandogya, Kausitaki being funny?

Sutra Bashya discussions funny ? or is it Niscaladasa making fun to

entertain dumb ones like me ! ? mmm... !

Anyways thanks for observing the proceesings !

With Narayana Smrthi,

 

 

 

 

 

 

BASKARAN.C.S

 

 

 

Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Devanathan,

> I have looked up Vichara sagara which you have referred to, but I am

not

> able to understand what it says. I have already stated my

understanding in

> my previous post. What Vichara sagara says seems rather strange.

 

Namaste,

 

Ramana Maharshi said something to the same effect!

 

http://www.benegal.org//books/tw/tw332.html

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

--- Baskaran <baskaran42 wrote:

 

>we are all

> advised not to think of the past that is gone and

> the future which we do not know but to live now in

> the present..

 

Baskaranji - PraNAms.

 

You have hit right on the button. Yes that is the

fundamental problem. If we freeze our thoughts at any

moment, we will find our thoughts are either centered

in the past or in the future - never in the present.

We do not live in the present. Ego's servival depends

on the past and future, while actions can only be done

in the present and results can only be enjoyed in the

present. The present is a thin line where the past

meets the future and in the limit there is no present

either - what is there is only our presence. That is

the fundamental truth.

 

Yes, if we can learn to live in the present all the

time, time itself is transcended and we recognized

that we are beyond the time.

 

Yes, understandng of the past and future, hopefully

helps us to pull ourselves from these two to live in

the present. That is where the life is and that is

where the truth is - here and now, ihaiva.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Yes, if we can learn to live in the present all the

time, time itself is transcended and we recognized

that we are beyond the time.

 

I seem to be always in the present, though. If images

of the past come to mind they can only come to it in

the present. The same with thoughts of the future. I

haven't yet gotten to the future, no matter how much I

think about it! " Ah, here I am in the future at last! "

That hasn't happened yet! Ha! I keep thinking I'll

move on into the future but it always eludes me, seems

to be one moment ahead of me all the " time " ! And I

even speak of the " future " , plans for tomorrow etc...I

just can't seem to get out of the present moment!

 

And since everything in the past happened in the

" present " moment--when else could it have

happened?--is there really a past other than in our

agreed-upon hallucinations which we call " reality " ?

 

And since the perceiver of all this cannot be the same

as all this, is that perceiver even taking part in

this construct called " time " ?....one guy's questions/opinions!

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji.

 

Bhagawan had us in mind, certainly, when he said the following

(excerpted from the last part of your quote)!

 

" Only the enquiry into the Self can be of use. Those familiar with

logic, Vrit i Prabhakara, Vichara Sagara or Sutra [?]Bhashya, or

similar large works, cannot relish small works like " Truth

Revealed " dealing only with the Self and that pointedly too, because

they have accumulated vasanas. Only those whose minds are less muddy,

or are pure, can relish small and purposeful works. "

 

Look at the length at which we talked about what happens post death,

sUkSma sharIra, 'state' of jnAni etc.!

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

__________________

 

advaitin , " Sunder Hattangadi " <sunderh

wrote:

> ............Ramana Maharshi said something to the same effect!

>

> http://www.benegal.org//books/tw/tw332.html

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " K Kathirasan " <brahmasatyam wrote:

 

Namaste SrI Kathirasan ji,

 

Extremely sorry for the delayed reply. I think I missed this valuable

post of yours.

 

Thanks for your appreciation.

 

Thanks a ton for these beautiful words:

*The important qualities of Vairagya and Uparati are to keep the mind

away from such values for Caste and Ashrama.*

 

Yours,

SAMPATH.

=============

>

> Namaste Sampathiji,

>

> One of the Dharmasastras proclaim:

>

> Janmana Jayate Sudrah Karmana Jayate Dvijah : By birth everyone is a

Sudra,

> and by Karma (self-effort) one becomes a twice-born.

>

> Now tell me who is not born a Sudra! My prostrations to your wisdom and

> humility. I have learned much from your contributions in this list.

>

> In any case, the purpose of Vedanta is not to convert a Sudra to a

brahmana

> or elevate anyone to another Varna. The purpose is to become a

> ativarnashrami, or one who is beyond castes and orders of life. The

> important qualities of Vairagya and Uparati are to keep the mind

away from

> such values for Caste and Ashrama.

>

> Kathirasan

>

>

> On Nov 20, 2007 8:27 PM, paramahamsavivekananda <

> paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

>

> > advaitin <advaitin%40>, " S.N.

> > Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote:

> >

> > Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

> > sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

> > hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

> > Sankara.

> > (vide. vEdOcchAraNE jihvAcchEdaH, dhAraNE SarIra bhEdA iti.-- His

> > tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut

> > through if he preserves it).

> >

> > And I thought that this birth of mine should be spent only with

> > itihAsAs and purANas as ordained by SrI Sankara.(Vide. SrAvayEt

> > chaturOvarNAn iti cha itihAsa purANAdhigamE

> > chAturvarNyasyAdhikArasmaraNAt -- Smriti, moreover, declares that all

> > the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the

> > itihAsAs and purANAs).

> >

> > But finally, it was your translation of manIsha panchakam that reached

> > me somehow which has inspired me to acquire brahmajnAna and I am here

> > today. :-)

> >

> > !! Jai Shankara !!

> >

> > Yours

> > SAMPATH.

> > ======================

> >

> > > Dear Shri Sampath,

> > > Your answers to Vaibhav's questions are absolutely correct and to

> > the point.

> > > I was expecting this from you.I find it a physical strain to type

> > out long

> > > answers on the computer and so I did not attempt to reply.

> > > You are not such a novice as you claim out of modesty.

> > > With best wishes,

> > > S.N.Sastri

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " paramahamsavivekananda "

<paramahamsavivekananda wrote:

> > > Respected SrI Sastri gAru,

> > > sAshTAnga danDa praNAmAlu,

> > >

> > > Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Actually, I am a born shUdra,

> > > hence I am not authorized to read vEda according to bAdarAyaNa and

> > > Sankara.

 

 

Sorry to drop into this one. I glanced back at some related topics in

November that I missed.

 

Well, I am a born Brahmana; by that, I believe I should abide by the

dharma associated with that varna: that is the social occupation

assigned to me by the shastras. I try to some and hope to more, but

don't do much as of now. (That's a different topic.)

 

I don't think it *needs* to be cluttered with the question of inner

character to think of what is my dharma to society. The kanchi acharya

states the following five inward dharmas as common to all varnas:

ahimsa (non-violence), satya (truthfulness), asteyam (non-stealing),

sauca (cleanliness) and indriya-nigraha [subduing the senses, if not

obliterating them]. Now if we see someone exemplifying these dharmas,

we will likely think that person is the " true Brahmana " or has the

right requisites, and so on. In fact, they are for all, and they are

the basic inward means of meditation leading to purity, etc and

therefore towards jnaana.

 

Mostly I learn from secondary sources and my own thinking. It may

differ from scripture here and there, but I don't think it is a serious

issue if my real concern is Brahmajnaana. If my concern is the right to

read scripture or follow the specific outward path laid down for the

Brahmana-varna (i.e. to the *partial* extent I consider desirable),

then it could be a problem; otherwise my main concern should be

establishing myself in the inward dharmas and focussing on the Truth as

I perform my outward activities.

 

In today's time, these forums are secondary resources; the words of

Ramakrishna, Vivekananada, Ramana Maharshi are all secondary; one's

abidance to a Guru/sampradaya is secondary; the Bhagavad Gita can be

taken to be smrithi and therefore secondary, and so on. If I think I

cannot aim at Brahmajnaana without direct study of Vedas (i.e. *only*

the jnaana-part), it may not be fully justified.

 

My point here is: don't mix up the varna-by-birth concept and its

relevance to the society with the varna-by-character concept and its

relevance to Brahmajnaana. Since most of us don't follow the varna-

dharma and fulfill its social dharma in the spirit intended, it is best

not to pretend wisdom and harass these things. Just abide with the

varna-by-character for its/your own sake and aspirations.

 

thollmelukaalkizhu