Guest guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I have been lately reading some of the works of cognitive scientists and neuroscientists who are trying desperately to make sense of the recent physical findings about the brain. Some like Dr. C. Dennett of Tufts University, have long championed the view that consciousness can be one day fully explained as a property of the processes in the material brain, thus making all notions of " self " etc moot. We are, according to them, not really different from a hardware under the control of a very complex software. There are other scientists who however think this as unlikely. This on going debate is of course more than of passing interest to Vedantins. In this connection I would like to get the views of others in the Advaitin group about a " problem of zombies " . “We are all zombies”, Prof Dennett suggests in his 1991 publication " Consciousness Explained " , though with reservations of his own. The question is: Can a zombie know it is a zombie to make such an assertion? A zombie cannot have any personal knowledge of truth. So, if it does “know” it is a zombie, then it is not really a zombie! If it does not know, but still makes this assertion on its own authority, then the statement is clearly unreliable. Only if the statement was prompted from “outside” by some entity can the statement possibly have validity (e.g a robot may make such a statement, having been so instructed by an outside programmer.) Now, can this outside entity itself be a zombie? If it is, we have the same credibility problem with the statement- if that outside entity cannot know itself, much less is the chance that it can know if something else is a zombie or not. We thus have a situation where there must be at least one non-zombie for a statement “We are all zombies” to have validity! In other words, the statement is self-contradictory. Hari Om! - Raju Chidambaram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 advaitin , aiyers wrote: > > We thus have a situation where there must be at least one non- zombie for a statement " We are all zombies " to have validity! In other words, the statement is self-contradictory. Namaste, Logicians and mathematicians have struggled with such paradoxes long before Zeno invented his to prove Parmenides axiom 'all is one'! [Another example: Epimenides - A Cretan said 'All Cretans are liars'!] For a fairly comprehensive essay : http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradoxes-contemporary-logic/ Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 advaitin , aiyers wrote: > In this connection I would like to get the views of others in the Advaitin group about a " problem of zombies " . > > " We are all zombies " , Prof Dennett suggests in his 1991 publication " Consciousness Explained " , though with reservations of his own. > Hari Om! > - Raju Chidambaram > I think all is about " awareness " . Imagine someone standing in the middle of a dark room. He can move around and touch the walls and declare that he is behind a wall. Or if he is more aware then he might calculate his steps and touch all four walls and declare that he is behind four walls. If he also touches the roof and then he could declare that he is in ROOM. The other way of finding where he is by light. Somehow light appears in the room then he realizes that he is in a room. Advaita is all about Jnaana and Ajaana. Svasvaroopa anu sandhanam is Jnaanam (knowing once true nature). We all experience self awareness at one level or the other. In that context, total awareness is strictly a personal nondual experience (aparoksha anubhuti). Love & Light, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 We thus have a situation where there must be at least one non-zombie for a statement “We are all zombies” to have validity! In other words, the statement is self-contradictory. Another infinite loop... What's the opposite of a zombie? A conscious being, I assume. Yet, I may define myself as a conscious being but that's not always the case, at least in everyday terms. I lose consciousness when I sleep, faint or maybe go away into a fantasy or day dream. So maybe I'm part zombie, part conscious being? But certainly I'm not always functioning as a fully conscious being. Seems it's on a continuum, maybe. Zombie-----------------------Conscious being...maybe I'm somewhere in the middle most of the " time " ? If I define myself as a zombie, then clearly I'm not a zombie, as you pointed out. On the other hand, to define myself as a conscious being, absolutely, also meets with problems. I can only get back to what I've mentioned before, which seems to cover all categories: the perceiver cannot be perceived. Whatever I say I am, I cannot be, because I, who see what I am, am seeing it--so it's not me!! So maybe I'm neither a conscious being nor a zombie--except when I forget that I'm neither...ha! Think this is another of those " pairs of opposites " things that goes round and round... The next thing I say will be true. The last thing I said was false. I'll volunteer to be the one non-zombie, if it comes up for a vote! ______________________________\ ____ Never miss a thing. Make your home page. http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Rajuji said: We thus have a situation where there must be at least one non-zombie for a statement “We are all zombies” to have validity! In other words, the statement is self-contradictory. (UNQUOTE) 1. The only way to reconcile both the statements without contradiction is the method of Advaita. We are all non-zombies but are behaving like one. The goal of life is to realize our true non-zombie nature. 2. But again there can be only one non-zombie, since if there are more than one zombies, each would think the other is zombie because there is no way to say someone ELSE isnt one, but a non-zombie knows the truth of everyone's nature. 1. and 2. together say that there is really only one non-zombie, but due to ignorance one perceives multiple zombies; or Advaita. Vaibhav. Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-08.html/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 advaitin , vaibhav khire <vskhire wrote: > > Rajuji said: > > We thus have a situation where there must be at least > one non-zombie > for a statement " We are all zombies " to have > validity! In other words, > the statement is self-contradictory. (UNQUOTE) > > 1. and 2. together say that there is really only one > non-zombie, but due to ignorance one perceives > multiple zombies; or Advaita. Namaste, Well said! Advaita also takes into account the dream and sleep states, and not limit itself to waking state. As Brihadaranyaka upan. says: " IV-iii-22: In this state a father is no father, a mother no mother, worlds no worlds, the gods no gods, the Vedas no Vedas. In this state a thief is no thief, the killer of a noble Brahmana no killer, a Chandala no Chandala, a Pulkasa no Pulkasa, a monk no monk, a hermit no hermit. (This form of his) is untouched by good work and untouched by evil work, for he is then beyond all the woes of his heart (intellect). " Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Namaste Dr. Raju Chidambaram-ji. Sir, from a mathematical model of vedanta to the current 'zombie' conundrum, you are indeed adding variety and spice to the proceedings at Advaitin! I don't quite understand why, in order to explain Consciousness, Prof. Dennett had to begin with a statement like " We are all zombies " . What a tragedy! He could have begun his foray from the common view that we are all mortals, sort of ignorant or limited, from which vedanta begins and then ultimately refutes it. The existence of a zombie warrants the existence of a non-zombie in our phenomenal. I don't mean that the latter validates the existence of the former. They are just a natural pair of inter-dependent opposites. Who really is the zombie is a matter of adjudication by another zombie or non-zombie. Thus, situation tends to regress indefinitely. Such regress also is the quality of our phenomenal. Besides, there are no absolute-zombies or absolute non-zombies. It is all a matter of gradation. These are some reasons why we christen the phenomenal mithyA. Thus, the existence of a non-zombie does not actually lend credibility to zombie-ness. It may provide a certain contrast. That is all. The Truth of Advaita, the Absolute, is the substratum which sustains this seeming parade of zombies, non-zombies, their adjudicator- zombies and non-zombies. It is not an outside entity. It pervades, sustains and shines our zombies, their non counterparts and our knowledge that there are zombies and non-zombies. This Truth will be found as never to be contradicted through proper enquiry. If all that we see including us is engineered by a super-intelligence to be worked by a software designed by it, then that super intelligence would warrant the existence of an intelligence superior to it and so on. That is an anavasta (non-situation) which is an object to our awareness. As such, the ultimate answer is to be clinched in awareness alone - the awareness which witnesses the phenomenal and its unwieldy tendency to regress ad infinitum. We can't go beyond that. So, back to the advaitic square: " I AM, all the zombies and non- zombies are! " . PraNAms. Madathil Nair _____________ advaitin , aiyers wrote: ......... > In this connection I would like to get the views of others in the Advaitin group about a " problem of zombies " . > > " We are all zombies " , Prof Dennett suggests in his 1991 publication " Consciousness Explained " , though with reservations of his own. > > The question is: Can a zombie know it is a zombie to make such an assertion? > > A zombie cannot have any personal knowledge of truth. So, if it does " know " it is a zombie, then it is not really a zombie! If it does not know, but still makes this assertion on its own authority, then the statement is clearly unreliable. > > Only if the statement was prompted from " outside " by some entity can the statement possibly have validity (e.g a robot may make such a statement, having been so instructed by an outside programmer.) Now, can this outside entity itself be a zombie? If it is, we have the same credibility problem with the statement- if that outside entity cannot know itself, much less is the chance that it can know if something else is a zombie or not. > > We thus have a situation where there must be at least one non- zombie for a statement " We are all zombies " to have validity! In other words, the statement is self-contradictory. > > Hari Om! > - Raju Chidambaram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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