Gita Satsangh Chapter 11 Verses 37 to 38

[Guest guest]

Gita Satsangh Chapter 11 Verses 37 to 38

(Verse Translation by Swami Gambirananda, Gita Bhasya and commentary

by Swami Chinmayanandaji)

 

Kasmaachcha te na nameran mahaatman Gareeyase brahmano'pyaadikartre;

Ananta devesha jagannivaasa Twamaksharam sadasattatparam yat. Verse 37

 

37. And why should they not bow down to You, O exalted [i.e. not

narrow-minded.] One, who are greater (than all) and who are the

first Creator even of Brahma! O infinite One, supreme God, Abode of

the Universe, You are the Immutable,being and non-being, (and) that

which is Transcendental.

 

Ca, and

since You are the Primal Creator, the Cause, api, even

brahmanah, of Brahma, of Hiranyagarbha

therefore, kasmat, why, for what reason

should they na nameran, not bow down

te, to You

mahatman, O exalted One

gariyase, who are greater (than all)! Hence, why should these not

bow down adi-karte, to the first Creator? Therefore You are fit for,

i.e. the fit object of, delight etc. and salutation as well.

 

Ananta, O infinite One

devesa, supreme God

jagannivasa, Abode of the Universe

tvam, You

are the aksaram, Immutable

tat param yat, that which is Transcendental, which is heard of in

the Upanisads;-what is that?-sad-asat, being and nonbeing.

 

Being is that which exists, and non-being is that with regard to

which the idea of nonexistence arises. (You are) that Immutable of

which these two-being and non-being-become the limiting adjuncts

which (Immutable), as a result, is metaphorically referred to as

being and non-being. But in reality that Immutable is transcendental

to being and non-being. 'That Immutable which the knowers of the

Vedas declare' (8.11 cf. Ka. 1.2.15)- that is You Yourself, nothing

else. This is the idea.

 

WHY SHOULD THEY NOT BOW DOWN TO THE GREAT ONE --- Because the Lord as

the Primal Cause of even the Creator, who creates the entire universe

of multiplicity, is like the mud in all mud-pots, or the gold in all

gold ornaments. The ornaments or the pots have no existence at all

apart from the gold-essence or the mud-essence in them. Thus, the

Primal Cause is that which pervades everything and is that which

holds together all names and forms. Infinite in nature, the Lord is

not only the Universe, but he is the Lord of all Lords, inasmuch as

even the denizens of the heavens and the great phenomenal powers ---

all derive their individual might from the Source of all Powers, this

Infinite Truth.

 

The entire world of things-and-beings that exist, can fall under two

categories: the Manifest (sat) and the Unmanifest (asat). The

manifest is that which can become objects of experience for the

organs-of-perception, for the instrument-of-feeling and the equipment-

of-thought. The Unmanifest is that which causes the perceptions,

feelings, and thoughts. These subtle causes that order the

individuals to live in the world outside are called vasanas and these

constitute the Unmanifest. Arjuna's beautiful definition of the Lord

accepts that the Lord is not only the Manifest (sat), but the

Unmanifest (asat) as well. And He is also that which transcends them

both.

 

AND THAT WHICH IS BEYOND THEM the theatre we can enjoy both

tragedy and comedy, but the light that illumines the stage is that

which transcends them both. The wedding-ring is, no doubt, made of

gold; the wedding-necklace is also, no doubt, made of gold. But gold

cannot be defined as the necklace or the ring. We will have to say

that gold is not only the ring or the necklace but also that which

transcend them both. In this sense, the Lord, being the essential

Truth in all names and forms, is both the Manifest and the

Unmanifest, and He also has a status that transcends both these

conditions. In fact, that which makes both the Manifest and the

Unmanifest possible is the Light of Awareness, the Pure

Consciousness, and the Universal Lord, whom Arjuna is invoking here.

 

THESE FEW STANZAS* REPRESENT THE MOST UNIVERSAL PRAYER THAT WE HAVE

IN ALL THE RELIGIOUS LITERATURE OF THE WORLD. THERE CANNOT BE ANY

CREED OR CASTE WHICH HAS ANY OBJECTION TO THESE, INASMUCH AS THEY

SUMMARISE THE ENTIRE GALAXY OF PHILOSOPHIC THOUGHTS REGARDING THE

ETERNAL, AND EXPAND WITH THEM THE DEVOTEE'S HEART WHICH CAN REACH

DIMENSIONS ALMOST UNKNOWABLE, YET WITHIN A DEVOTEE'S EXPERIENCE.

ARJUNA EXTOLS THE LORD THUS:

 

He praises again:

Twamaadidevah purushah puraanas Twamasya vishwasya param nidhaanam;

Vettaasi vedyam cha param cha dhaama Twayaa tatam vishwamanantaroopa.

Verse 38

 

38. You are the primal Deity, the ancient Person. You are the supreme

Resort of this world. You are the knower as also the object of

knowledge, and the supreme Abode. O You of infinite forms, the

Universe is pervaded by You!

 

You are the adi-devah, primal Deity, because of being the creator of

the Universe

the puranah, ancient, eternal

purusah, Person-(derived) in the sense of 'staying in the town (pura)

that is the body'. You verily are the param, suprem

nidhanam, Resort, in which this entire Universe comes to rest at the

time of final dissolution etc. Besides, You are the vetta, knower of

all things to be known. You are also the vedyam, object of knowledge-

that which is fit to be known

and the param, supreme

dhama, Abode, the supreme State of Visnu. Anantarupa, O You of

infinite forms, who have no limit to Your own forms

the entire visvam, Universe

tatam, is pervaded

tvaya, by You.

 

YOU ARE THE PRIMAL GOD --- The Self is the Supreme Creator. The Pure

Consciousness is the womb from which even the Creator has risen. The

Self, conditioned by Its own creative urge, plays the part of the

Creator.

 

YOU ARE THE SUPREME ABODE OF THE UNIVERSE --- The entire Vishwa is

housed in the Lord, and therefore, it is said that the Lord is the

Abode for the Universe. Here, the term Vishwa is to be correctly

understood. When this is translated as the " Universe, " we are apt to

confuse it with the astronomers' universe or the scientists'

universe. The Sanskrit term Vishwa includes these and even more. It

includes the entire world of perceptions and the whole field of

emotions and the total realms of thought that we, as intelligent

individuals, experience in all our lives. This totality of the world

of experience through the body, mind and intellect together is

indicated by the term Vishwa.

 

With this understanding of the term Vishwa, it should not be very

difficult for the students of Vedanta to understand the full meaning

of this life. We are all now experiencing our world through the

matter equipments of our body, mind and intellect. These, being

products of inert matter, have no Consciousness of their own except

that which they borrow from the Infinite, the Self.

 

These matter envelopments, we have already indicated, are not

produced from the Self, as the Self is changeless. The world of

matter cannot be said to arise from any other independent source,

since the Self is All-pervading and is the One-without-a-second.

Therefore, it is explained that the Vishwa is but a superimposition

upon the Truth, as the ghost-vision gained on a post. In all such

hallucinations, the post is the abode of the ghost, of the emotions

which it creates, and of the thoughts it generates. There is no truth

in the ghost apart from the post from which it borrows its ghost-

form. Thus, it is the Self that is indicated here by Arjuna when he

so beautifully sings that the Lord is the " Supreme Abode " of the

entire Vishwa.

 

THOU ART THE KNOWER AND THE KNOWABLE --- The Awareness in us is the

Factor that completes all our experiences as realities. If the Light

of Awareness were not to illumine the inert world-of-matter, no

knowledge would have been possible, and therefore, the Principle of

Consciousness, represented here as Lord Krishna, the Charioteer ---

is described here as the Knower. All the techniques of Self-

realization are methods of gathering our Consciousness from all its

channels of dissipation, so that, in the still moments of thoughtless

Awareness, the Self is automatically RECOGNIZED. It is thus said 'the

Knowable,' or the realizable.

 

YOU PERVADE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OF FORMS --- Just as sweetness

pervades all chocolates, as the ocean pervades all waves, the Lord,

being the essence, pervades everything. It was said just a little

before, that the super-impositions cannot exist apart from the

Substratum upon which they are being perceived. The Self is the

Substratum on which the multitude of the world-of-plurality is

visualized, and therefore, it is rightly said that " HE PERVADES ALL. "

This is only a repetition of the great Upanishadic Truth that " the

Infinite pervades all, and nothing pervades It. "

[Guest guest]

Swami Dayananda Saraswati's Explanation and Comments:

 

And for what reason would they not salute (you), O Lord, the one who

is greater than (and) the original creator of even Brahma? O

Limitless One, Lord of all the gods, the one in whom the world

resolves, you are eternal, the limitlessness which is both cause and

effect.

 

Arjuna is not surprised that even the siddhas salute the Lord because

he sees him as even greater than Brahma, the creator. Therefore, he

asks this question. " Why should they not offer their salutations unto

you who is greater than even Brahmaji and is the primal creator,

adikarta, of even Brahma? " When the Lord is the cause and the

sustaining factor of even gods like Brahma, Indra and so on, it is

proper, sthane, for all those who know his glories to surrender to

him. In other words, the Lord is the ultimate altar of surrender.

Seeing one's own accomplishments as the glories of the Lord, one

becomes objective and dispassionate in one's life. There is an ego,

but it is so thin it does not cause any discordance to the harmony

between the individual and the world, which is all the glory of the

Lord. This is the surrender which is yoga. The ultimate surrender of

the ego is in the wake of the knowledge of the oneness of the jiva

and Isvara revealed by such sentences as samoham sarvabhutesu, " I am

the same in all beings. " Here knowledge and surrender are identical.

That is why the Lord said that the jnani, the fourth type of devotee,

is himself, jnani tu atma eva.

 

Addressing the Lord as ananta, devesa and jagannivasa, Arjuna has

expressed his appreciation of the propriety of even the gods offering

their prayers to the Lord and the raksasas running in ail directions

finding no place of refuge. He also expresses his understanding of

the Lord saying, 'You are that unchanging, limitless (Brahman), tad

aksaram param, which, yat, is both cause, sat, and effect, asat. " In

other words, " You are both transcendent and immanent. While you are

self-existent and not limited by time and space, aksaram param, the

world which is mithya, asat, is not separate from you as the cause,

sat. " Arjuna does recognize that Krishna the Lord is the cause of the

world.

 

'You are first among the gods, the Lord who was there at the

beginning, the one who fills up everything, who was there even

before. You are the ultimate resolving place of this world; you are

the knower and what is to be known and the ultimate abode. By you the

world is pervaded, 0 one whose forms are endless. "

 

Arjuna continues to praise the Lord as the one who is first among the

gods, adidevah. The compound adi-deva can be explained differently as

the one who is at the beginning and also the one who is the Lord,

adteca asau devagca adidevah. He is at the beginning as the cause of

the world, adi, and he is the all-knowing effulgent being and is

therefore called deva.

 

He is the one who fills up the entire world and is therefore called

purusah puranah. Puranah means the one who was there even before and

the one who continues to be as fresh as he was. The Lord is not

only the cause of the jagat, he is also the resolving place of all

that is created, nidhiyate asniin iti nidhanam. And he is param,

limitless. As in a dream, the dreamer is the cause of the dream

world and also its place of resolution, param nidhanam is that in

which things are ultimately resolved. Therefore, Sankara says it is

the point of the complete resolution of the entire world, jagat

sarvam maha-pralayadau. This can be the final dissolution of the

creation into its un manifest form or it can mean the mvkti-avastha,

either jivan-muikti-avastha or videha-oiuktl-avastha, the place where

the jiva resolves. The jivatvam is false so it resolves into its

cause.

Then, " You are the knower, vetta asu " " From the standpoint of saksi

atma you are the ultimate knower of everything, and from the

standpoint of omniscience, sarvajnatvam, you are the knower of all

that can be known. " " And you are also all that can be known, vedyam

ca. " Arjuna recognizes Krishna here as all the various things in

creation that can be known. Or, alternately, " You are the one to be

known, the ultimate object of knowledge. "

 

Dhama is a place where you can go with enthusiasm, a desirable place.

Bhagavan is param dhama, the ultimate place to go. " Wherever you go,

you eventually tire of it and leave because any place is a composite

of a few things you have already seen. Even if you go to heaven from

here, where will you go after that? Where is the place from where you

will not want to go anywhere else? Param dhama, the ultimate abode.

Having gone there, there is no return. That is moksa-sthanam, where

the jiva resolves completely, becoming one with Isvara, the Lord.

Sankara .adds, the ultimate abode of Visnu, paramam padam vaisnavam

which means moksa. Visnu is the one who pervades this entire world,

visvam. Vitivam means what is known in a variegated way, vividha-

pratyaya-gamyam. What a nice expression for the world! " This variety

of names and forms, called visva, is pervaded by you, Visnu. Since

you are the material cause, nothing is away from you. " Arjuna has no

more doubt in this area because he has seen the visvarupa. He has

seen that the entire visva is the very form of Isvara. In his cosmic

form, Krishna pervades every form. Arjuna addresses him here as

anantarupa, the one who has no limit to his forms. His form consists

of every other form.

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

At this point we have covered three fourth of the verses from chapter

11 and we will likely complete this chapter by early March 2008. I

am sorry to say that there was very little interaction from the

Satsanghis during the past six months. Satsanghs can only be

beneficial when we exchange our insights and try to relate these

conversations between Sri Krishna and Sri Arjuna to the underlined

Vedantic Philosophy. I hope to see more interaction from all of the

members – those who have insights are obligated to share with the

rest of the community; and those who don't understand are obligated

to state to get clarifications from the learned members.

 

In Sanskrit, sat means the truth, and sangh means, to be together

with. So satsangh literally means to be associated with the truth.

(He is the truth, God is the truth). So whenever we sit together and

meditate or discuss it is satsangh. And when seventeen hundred people

jointly discuss in the Cyberspace, it is also Satsangh. But the

Cyber satsangh will only become effective when we keep in touch with

the truth by participating in the discussions.

 

So in a satsangh the contact with the Ultimate Truth must be

maintained in order to benefit by that satsangh. Because each time we

sit in satsangh and establish that contact to the Ultimate by His

grace, we achieve clarities and abilities. We are able to establish

the contact sooner and sooner, and the contact also becomes stronger

and stronger, until one day we see the Ultimate Light! Our

participation in a Satsang is to ensure that we make a serious

commitment to: (1) Our personal growth in spiritual awareness and

practice; (2) We resolve to remove the barriers of prejudice and

ignorance which divide persons from others and (3) We determine to

build up relationships of compassion and appreciation across

frontiers of race, language, culture and religion. Hopefully by

seeking together, we seek to create the ultimate undivided universal

heart.

 

In the verses under discussion, Arjuna wants to impress Lord Krishna

by stating his perception of Isvara immediately after the

Visvarupadarshana. By addressing the Lord as `Mahatman', Ananta,'

`Devesa' and `Jagannivasa', Arjuna shows that He is the all-pervading

soul of all animate and inanimate beings; that His form, virtues and

glory etc, are all infinite; that He is the Ruler even of the

celestials and that the universe not only exists in Him but is also

pervaded by Him. Therefore it is quite in the fitness of things that

all beings should offer their salutations to Him. The adjectives

`Gariyase, and `Brahmanopyadikartre' indicate that He is the

progenitor not only of this universe but of Brahma himself, who

created it. Therefore; being the best of all, and the supreme object

of their worship, He deserves the homage of all.

 

The imperishable soul, which never ceases to be, is designated as

`Sat'; while all perishable and transient objects are termed as

`Asat'. It is these which have been referred to as the `Para' and

`Apara' Prakrtis in Chapter 7 and as the `Aksara' and `Ksara' Purusas

respectively in Chapter 15. Beyond these two are the supreme

Indestructible or God Himself, the embodiment of Truth, Knowledge,

and Bliss. In justification of his offering salutations etc, to the

Lord, Arjuna says that they are all identical with Isvara.

 

By speaking of the Lord as " the ultimate resort of this universe "

Arjuna shows that at the time of final dissolution the whole of this

universe gets merged into God and ever exists in a fraction of His

being. By referring to the Lord as `Vetta' (knower), Arjuna

indicates that it is He who possesses real and full knowledge of the

past, present and future worlds, and is the eternal witness of all.

That is why God is omniscient; and there is none who can equal Him in

omniscience.

 

By speaking of the Lord as `Vedyam', Arjuna indicates that He is the

supreme Brahma or God, who is the only object worth knowing, whose

knowledge is the highest goal of human existence, and who has been

referred to in verses 12 to 17 of Chapter 13 as the object of

Knowledge. By referring to the Lord as `Param Dhama, Arjuna shows

Isvara's identity with the highest abode, which is the final resort

of all liberated souls, land attaining which man does not return to

the mortal world.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran wrote:

>

> Gita Satsangh Chapter 11 Verses 37 to 38

> Kasmaachcha te na nameran mahaatman Gareeyase brahmano'pyaadikartre;

> Ananta devesha jagannivaasa Twamaksharam sadasattatparam yat. Verse 37

 

> Twamaadidevah purushah puraanas Twamasya vishwasya param nidhaanam;

> Vettaasi vedyam cha param cha dhaama Twayaa tatam vishwamanantaroopa.

> Verse 38

 

 

Dear Satsanghis,

 

Here are a couple of verses from Jnaneshwari on these verses.

 

[For BG 11.37]

 

502. O Narayana! why should the demons flee at sight of

Thee, instead of finding refuge in Thee?

 

503. Why should I ask Thee this? This much we know.

How can darkness remain after the rising of the sun?

 

504. As Thou who art the storehouse of the light of

the soul, hast made Thyself visible to us today, it is but

natural [that the demons] should take to flight.

...

507. Thou, Lord, art that which is eternally limitless,

the one who is not confined by the qualities, the same

for all time; Thou art indeed the whole process of

speech and its four stages.

 

508. Thou art the essence sustaining all the worlds;

O Sadashiva Thou art indestructible, being and yet

non-being, and all that is beyond this.

 

[For BG 11.38]

 

511. Through the eyes of the Vedas we see the joy of

union with Thee, O Thou who art one with the universe;

Thou art the highest resort of the three worlds.

 

512. Therefore Thou art called the ultimate refuge,

for at the end of the world even the supreme spirit

merges into Thee.

 

513. In short the whole universe is pervaded by Thee.

Who can describe Thy infinite Form?

 

praNams to all Advaitins,

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran wrote:

Dear Shri Ramji,

 

Thanks for the great explanation. I have a few questions/comments:

 

[Question] It seems to me that there is something interesting

in the terms used by Arjuna in these verses.

Are the terms 'janannivaasa' and 'vishwamanantaroopa'

more like in verse 9.4 or like verse 9.5? Please explain.

 

9.4. This whole world is prevaded by Me in My

unmanifest form. All beings exist in Me, but I am not

contained in them!

 

9.5. Nor do the beings dwell in Me. Behold My

divine Yoga! I am the sustainer and originator of beings,

but My Self is not contained in the beings.

 

In both of these, you know that there is an antinomy.

 

==

 

[Observation] The terms for knowledge that Arjuna is using

are as if he knows the essence of chapter 13, which is yet to

come!

 

Also, the words of Arjuna are as if he is proving what

Shri Krishna foretold in chapter 5. For example in the

following verse.

 

5.16. But in the case of those of whom that ignorance

of theirs becomes destroyed by the knowledge (of the Self),

their Knowledge, like the sun, reveals that supreme Reality.

 

What can we say about the realization of Arjuna?

 

==

 

> By speaking of the Lord as `Vedyam', Arjuna indicates that He is the

> supreme Brahma or God, who is the only object worth knowing, whose

> knowledge is the highest goal of human existence, and who has been

 

[Question] Does Vedyam translate as 'only object worth knowing'

or 'the only object worth knowable, using Vedas as praMana'?

Please explain.

 

Please excuse me if this question sounds more like a rhetorical

question!

 

Regards

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta "

<ramakrsn wrote:

>

> advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran@>

wrote:

> Dear Shri Ramji,

>

> Thanks for the great explanation. I have a few questions/comments:

>

> [Question] It seems to me that there is something interesting

> in the terms used by Arjuna in these verses.

> Are the terms 'janannivaasa' and 'vishwamanantaroopa'

> more like in verse 9.4 or like verse 9.5? Please explain.

>

> 9.4. This whole world is prevaded by Me in My

> unmanifest form. All beings exist in Me, but I am not

> contained in them!

>

> 9.5. Nor do the beings dwell in Me. Behold My

> divine Yoga! I am the sustainer and originator of beings,

> but My Self is not contained in the beings.

>

> In both of these, you know that there is an antinomy.

>

Namaste

 

Please see

advaitin/message/2356

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " V. Krishnamurthy " <profvk wrote:

> > In both of these, you know that there is an antinomy.

> >

> Please see

> advaitin/message/2356

 

praNams Shri Professorji,

 

Thank you for the wonderful reference!

 

I think the same has been explained on your website

as the first " secret of secrets " in

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/livehappily_6.html

 

I am a regular visitor to your excellent website.

Your explanation of the various " secret of secrets "

had earlier cleared up the doubts I had on Gita.

I have read and re-read your " Who is the Doer " notes

and have to admit, it has a non-trivial amount of

wisdom.

 

Your writings, and the charts/figures on chapter 15

of Gita, made me even understand (at least I think so!)

the ever inscrutable Aurobindo! Isn't it amazing?

 

It is when I think of the clarity of your various writings

that I have to attribute the result to purva-janma

sukruta, sujanma-suktruta and of course, guru krupa.

 

Thank you again, again and again for sharing your

wisdom with ignorant people like me!

 

warm respects,

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

This is an essay on Gita XI-38.

 

I am not going to be telling anything new. But this shloka is one of

the most important shlokas not only in all of the Gita but in the

entire religious and philosophical literature of India. It is

naturally revered, recited and repeated as a universal prayer every

time there is an Indian gathering with sublime purposes and

intentions. I want to offer my thoughts at this time of the

appearance of this shloka in our Gita Satsang. Ram Chandranji has

very legitimately drawn our attention to the need for every one to

participate in the Satsang.

 

Particularly in the 11th chapter there are two shlokas which are most

suited for our spiritual nididhyAsanA, that is, intense thinking

about the Ultimate. One is shloka 18 and the other is this shloka

38. In this article we shall concentrate on #38 only.

 

*Adi-devaH purushhaH purANaH* in the first line reminds us of the

*sat* aspect of Brahman. It corresponds to the *sat* (Existence)

aspect implied in the word *savituH* (which connotes Birth) in the

first line of the GayatrI.

 

*tvaM asya vishvasya paraM nidhanaM* in the second line of this

shloka corresponds to the immanence aspect of Brahman, directly

conveyed by the very first nAma in Vishnu Sahasra nAma, namely

*vishvaM*. It is mystically conveyed in Gita IX-4 and 5. *paraM

nidhAnaM* - ultimate substratum – also indicates that He is the

material cause of the Universe, not only the physical universe, but

the universe of all experiences, thoughts and emotions.

 

*vettA asi* in the third line of this shloka tells us exactly what

the third line *dhiYo yo naH prachodayAt* of the Gayatri says –

namely, that it is He who cognizes for us. So it corresponds to the

*cit* aspect of Brahman. *vettA asi* - You are the Knower – also

indicates He is the efficient cause (nimitta kAraNa) of the Universe.

 

*paraM dhAma* in the third line of this shloka corresponds to the

Ananda aspect of Brahman, because He is the pinnacle of perfection

and so there is nothing to be obtained after perfection. So He is

Bliss personified. This corresponds to the word *dhImahi* in the

second line of the GayatrI, because meditation on the Supreme is

itself Bliss; there can be nothing more supreme than that.

 

*tvayA tataM vishvam ananta-rUpa* delineates the pervading aspect of

the Lord and so it corresponds to the Transcendence aspect of

Brahman – directly conveyed by the very second word in Vishnu-Sahasra-

nAma, namely *VisHNuH*.

 

And finally, there is the word *vedyaM* in the third line. It

means " Whatever is to be known is You " . *vedaishca sarvair-aham-eva

vedyaH* says the Lord in XV-15. He is the One to be known. There is

nothing to be known other than Him. He is everything. *sarvaM

khalvidaM brahma* . All the perceivable things are only Name and

Form. All that Name and Form is only He.

 

Thus this shloka is GayatrI itself. It covers all the five aspects of

Brahman: Existence, Knowledge, Bliss, Transcendence, Immananence and

includes also the MAyA aspect of all Names and Forms.

 

*By realizing this one is released from the jaws of death*, says

Kathopanishad I-iii-15 (*nicAyya tan-mRtyu-mukhAt pramucyate*).

That is why this becomes a universal prayer for all.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ramakrishna:

 

Thanks for injecting your comments and questions related to verses 37

and 38. Your questions related to verses 9.4 and 9.5 have already

been clarified by ProfVKji. We had extensive discussions of Chapter 9

during October 2002 to March 2003 and they are available in the

archive.

 

If we agree with the revelations of the sages of the Upanishads that

the Brahman only knows the Brahman, we can't say anything about the

realization of Arjuna. The continuation of the conversations do imply

that he has not yet realized and he just had a glimpse of the

infinity and what he saw, he couldn't comprehend. That is why he

requests Lord Krishna to go back to the form by which he can

comprehend Him (verse # 46).

 

> [Question] Does Vedyam translate as 'only object worth knowing'

> or 'the only object worth knowable, using Vedas as praMana'?

> Please explain.

 

The message is subtle and coming from understanding at the

vyavaharika level: We recognize Brahman the Ultimate Knowledge is the

only one worth knowable and this understanding is supported by the

Vedas (praMana!).

 

Let me stop here and allow other members to express their insights on

your questions. Thanks again for sharing and initiating the

discussion,

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta "

<ramakrsn wrote:

>

> Are the terms 'janannivaasa' and 'vishwamanantaroopa'

> more like in verse 9.4 or like verse 9.5? Please explain.

>

>

> What can we say about the realization of Arjuna?

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran wrote:

> > What can we say about the realization of Arjuna?

 

> realization of Arjuna. The continuation of the conversations do imply

> that he has not yet realized and he just had a glimpse of the

> infinity and what he saw, he couldn't comprehend. That is why he

 

praNams Shri Ram Chandranji and Professorji (and other elders),

 

Arjuna in the verses 11-18 and 11-38 and the other verses

is not attributing the doership of everything to the Lord. I looked

at the archives and Professorji's notes on doership. In 9.16-9.19,

especially 9-18 (among other places), the Lord is clearly saying that

HE ALONE is the doer.

 

I think that, in this prayer, the attributing the doership to the

Lord (and the Lord alone) does not seem to be in the tone of

Arjuna. If I may dare to draw a comparison from bhagavatham,

Arjuna is still at the level of dhruva, and not at the stage of

praHlada, which is what the Lord wants him to be. In the prayer,

though beautiful in nature in words and spirit, is dual in nature

(again pardon me for using such a word). He is not saying

Shivoham when addressing the Lord.

 

The bhagavatham comparision seems to makes sense because,

praHlada was the only one who could fearlessly go to the Lord

in His destructive form. Arjuna in this prayer is praying to a Lord,

who is omnipotent etc. but still outside him. So, later he will

naturally ask the Lord to come to his " usual form " , which praHlada

does not need to do so.

 

Please excuse me for any ignorant comparisons and kindly point

out any mistakes.

 

praNams to all Advaitins

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta "

<ramakrsn wrote:

>praNams Shri Ram Chandranji and Professorji (and other elders),

> I think that, in this prayer, the attributing the doership to the

> Lord (and the Lord alone) does not seem to be in the tone of

> Arjuna. If I may dare to draw a comparison from bhagavatham,

> Arjuna is still at the level of dhruva, and not at the stage of

> praHlada, which is what the Lord wants him to be. In the prayer,

> though beautiful in nature in words and spirit, is dual in nature

> (again pardon me for using such a word). He is not saying

> Shivoham when addressing the Lord.

>

> The bhagavatham comparision seems to makes sense because,

> praHlada was the only one who could fearlessly go to the Lord

> in His destructive form. Arjuna in this prayer is praying to a

Lord,

> who is omnipotent etc. but still outside him. So, later he will

> naturally ask the Lord to come to his " usual form " , which praHlada

> does not need to do so.

>

> Please excuse me for any ignorant comparisons and kindly point

> out any mistakes.

>

> praNams to all Advaitins

> Ramakrishna

 

Dear Shri Ramakrishna,

I find the comparison made by you to be very apt and excellent.

S.N.Sastri

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ramakrishna:

 

I join Sastriji and congratulate you for your valuable observations.

At this stage (Chapter 11) Arjuna knows that the Lord is a Doer but

he does not believe that the Lord is the ONLY DOER! As you rightly

pointed out that praHlada (since he had no delusion) had the

conviction that the Lord is the Doer and Arjuna still has doubts.

The question " Did the delusion of Arjuna ever get destroyed? " has been

answered through the verses 72 and 73 of chapter 18 of Gita.

Bhagavan Sri Krishna specifically asks Arjuna in verse 72:

 

Kacchid etacchrutam paartha twayaikaagrena chetasaa;

Kacchid ajnaanasammohah pranashtaste dhananjaya.

 

72. Has this been heard, O Arjuna, with one-pointed mind? Has the

delusion of thy ignorance been fully destroyed, O Dhananjaya?

 

Arjuna's reply is stated in verse 72:

Arjuna Uvaacha:

Nashto mohah smritirlabdhaa twatprasaadaanmayaachyuta;

Sthito'smi gata sandehah karishye vachanam tava.

 

Arjuna said:

73. Destroyed is my delusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge)

through Thy Grace, O Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will

act according to Thy word.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: Swami Dayananda provides a detailed commentary (based on

Sankara Bhashya) on these two important verses of chapter 18 and I

have included them below:

 

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta " <ramakrsn

> wrote:>

> I think that, in this prayer, the attributing the doership to the

> Lord (and the Lord alone) does not seem to be in the tone of

> Arjuna. If I may dare to draw a comparison from bhagavatham,

> Arjuna is still at the level of dhruva, and not at the stage of

> praHlada, which is what the Lord wants him to be. In the prayer,

> though beautiful in nature in words and spirit, is dual in nature

> (again pardon me for using such a word). He is not saying

> Shivoham when addressing the Lord.

>

 

Swami Dayananda Saraswati's Explanations (Gita Homestudy Notes)

======================================

Krishna asks Arjuna here, calling him Partha, son of Prtha, Kunti,

his own beloved sister, " Has this Sastra been listened to by you? " He

wants to know not only if the sastra has been listened to, but if it

has been listened to properly, that is, with a mind which is single-

pointed, that is attentive, ekagrena cetasa. That means, only one

thing is there at the time of listening. With this qualification, the

question, therefore, means, " Have you understood? " From this we

understand that attentiveness is a very important thing in listening.

One has to suspend all ideas and prejudices for the time being, and

just expose oneself to the teaching as it comes. That is what is

important. Only what is being taught now is listened to with an

attempt to understand, not what was listened to before or what is

inside your mind. Those things do not come and cloud the listening,

creating a problem. That capacity to suspend all one's ideas and just

listen to what is going on is called ekagra. There is only one

subject matter in front of the mind. Not only that, Sankara

adds, " Did you listen without indifference? "

 

Then Krishna, addressing Arjuna as Dhananjaya. the winner of laurels,

asks a second question. " Is your delusion gone? " In delusion there is

confusion, things are not seen as they are - atma is not seen as

atma; anatma is not seen anatma; between them, there is confusion.

Wherever there is delusion, there is confusion, and that confusion is

always due to a mix-up between two things. There are two types of

delusion: one is at the absolute level, the confusion between atma

and anatma, and the other is a relative confusion, between dharma and

adharma. Both are born of ignorance, ajnana. Krishna asks here if

this delusion born of ignorance is destroyed. That means the whole

Sastra is meant to destroy delusion. When he asks if Arjuna listened

properly, he wants to know if his understanding is such that it has

destroyed all the delusion. Sankara says that this delusion is not

something we have to create. It is very natural, svabhavika. This is

true even of values. Even though we have an inbuilt knowledge of

right and wrong, the value of those values has to be assimilated. For

that, one has to initiate the process of assimilation. It is to

elimiate both types of delusion that we make effort to listen to the

Sastra. The teacher's effort in teaching is also meant to remove the

delusion.

 

Now Arjuna answers Lord Krishna's question. Suppose he had said, " You

praise sannyasa and then Jnana-yoga. Tell me which one of these two

is best. " Then Lord Krishna has to start all over again. But here,

Arjuna answers Bhagavan's question very positively, and therefore,

the Gita comes to an end.

 

Addressing Krishna as Acyuta, the one who is free from any kind of

change, Arjuna says, " My delusion is gone. " He has gained

recognition, smrti, of himself, that is, knowledge of attna. How? He

has gained this knoweldge by the grace of Krishna, " By your grace, "

tvatprasadat, he says, which means by the teaching of Krishna. And

further, he says that he remains as a person from whom all doubts

have disappeared, gatasandehah. Now he is ready to act according to

the words of Krishna. He has no longer any sense of doership, and

therefore, can do what is to be done just because it is to be done.

Krishna himself had said, I have nothing at all to accomplish in the

three worlds, and still, I am engaged in karma " na me partha asti

kartavyam trisu lokesu kincana nanavaptam avaptavyamm varte eva ca

kacmani. Similarly, Arjuna has his own prarabdha-karma, and

therefore, should act. If he knows, he doesn't lose anything by being

active, but is merely fulfilling his prarabdha-karma, and if he does

not know, then he had better do what is to be done as a yoga,

because, it is better to get destroyed doing your duty than doing

something else, svadharme nidhanam sreyah paradharmo bhayavahah.

 

Sankara here views Arjuna as one who has gained this knowledge of

atma, not just some freedom from confusion with reference to dharma

and adharma. Thus, the delusion that is gone is that which is born of

the ignorance which is the cause of all samsara. That samsara is very

difficult to cross, like an ocean. But it has completely gone by the

recognition of the self which is completely free from notions, the

self that we experience in deep sleep or in a moment of joy, etc. The

self is always self-evident, and thus, the knowledge is only

recognition of what is. Sankara says that the recognition, the gain,

is of the truth of atma. Because of that gain, one is released from

all the knots of the heart in the form of ignorance, desire, and the

action that the desire instigates. Thus, by saying that his delusion

is gone, " due to your grace, " Arjuna thanks his teacher.

 

Sankara says that by this question on the part of Krishna, and

Arjuna's answer to it, what becomes clear is that the result of the

study of the entire sastra is the elimination of delusion, moha. It

is also clear that the removal of samsara takes place when the.

removal of the delusion takes place. Therefore, delusion is the cause

for samsara, and this clearly means that there is no real samsara.

Thus, " You are grieving for what does not deserve to be grieved for, "

asocyan anvasocyastvam, is a very appropriate beginning for this

conclusion, " My delusion is gone. " The grief is for no reason because

it is due to delusion. The destruction of the delusion takes place by

knowledge, and because of that also, there is both the recognition,

smrti, and the gain, labha, of the atma. This is the result of the

study of the sastra.

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Ramakrishna,

The contrast pointed out by you between the reactions of Arjuna and

Prahlada set me thinking further. All the devas were afraid of Lord

Narasimha and did not dare to go near Him. But Prahlada was

fearless. The br. upanishad says that fear arises from seeing a

second entity. Prahlada did not fear because he did not see the Lord

as different from him; in fact he did not see duality at all. He was

thus already liberated. By contrast, though Krishna and Arjuna were

friends from childhood, Arjuna was frightened by the visvarUpa

because he still continued to see duality. It is only at the end, in

Ch 18, that he appears to have realized the truth. Though I knew

these facts earlier, their implications dawned in my mind only after

your contrast of Arjuna and Prahlada. Your post was really wonderful.

S.N.Sastri

 

-- In advaitin , " Ram Chandran " <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Ramakrishna:

>

> I join Sastriji and congratulate you for your valuable

observations.

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Ramakrishna,

> The contrast pointed out by you between the reactions of Arjuna and

> Prahlada set me thinking further. All the devas were afraid of Lord

 

praNams shrimAn Sastri mahAshaya,

 

I am humbled by your kind words.

 

SashtAng namashkaarh

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

In fact I have found that many ordinary-looking statements in the

bhAgavata have profound vedAntic significance, I have brought out

some instances of this in my articles on the vedAntic meaning of

some episodes in bhAgavata at

www.geocities.com/snsastri/episodes.html

which may please be seen.

S.N.Sastri

 

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta "

<ramakrsn wrote:

>

> advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Shri Ramakrishna,

> > The contrast pointed out by you between the reactions of Arjuna

and

> > Prahlada set me thinking further. All the devas were afraid of

Lord

>

> praNams shrimAn Sastri mahAshaya,

>

> I am humbled by your kind words.

>

> SashtAng namashkaarh

> Ramakrishna

>